General Investing and Economics Discussion - No Politics

LibertyTurns

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Just when the markets looked like they may get stabilized, here comes the big post-Tuesday Democrat Primary reattack where the bejeezes is scared out of the markets with people thinking Crazy Uncle Joe actually has a chance of getting elected. Can everyone just chill for a few days and let everything settle down? No more bad news please. I want to get into money making mode.
 

Deleted member 2897

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Just when the markets looked like they may get stabilized, here comes the big post-Tuesday Democrat Primary reattack where the bejeezes is scared out of the markets with people thinking Crazy Uncle Joe actually has a chance of getting elected. Can everyone just chill for a few days and let everything settle down? No more bad news please. I want to get into money making mode.

It’s definitely a weird time. The 10 year bond has doubled in the last 2 days.
 

Deleted member 2897

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An NBA player tested positive but felt good so he played. WTF. Now the entire NBA season is canceled. Travel AND cargo to/from Europe shut down. Dow futures down again with all this. This could get really oogly.
 

Deleted member 2897

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Deleted member 2897

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On the bright side, you can't have supply chain issues if you cancel all demand.

This stuff will be hell on economies. People will lose jobs, companies will face cash crunches. Families will face cash crunches. But, we were starting from a place of very strong economic health generally speaking. I'm hoping with the spring warmth, the plateaus we are seeing other places, more understanding and data, that we pull out of this in another 1-2 months tops and that the economy can get back on track within a few months after that. May be wishful thinking, but thats the wishes I'm thinking about. :D
 

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When the people making money start losing money, the crisis will end. I think we’re getting close.

I don't know. I mean think how emotion and the media interact on these things. We've basically had zero economic data come out - earnings reports, GDP, employment numbers, and so on for where we have been in the last 2-3 weeks until now. These numbers, while they shouldn't be long lasting, will contribute to the breathless media clickbait news cycle and I wouldn't be surprised if the drumbeat continues. Just like I have said before, I wouldn't want to predict where the stock market goes...I think I said anywhere from 15-18,000 back to like 29,000... If I had to update that today I might lower the top end a tad, but it wouldn't surprise me at all for the pile-on media to keep (unintentionally) driving it down.
 

LibertyTurns

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Yea I mean futures were down 500 last night, then up 1500 pre-market...and now already by 10am we're at the low of the day.
Maybe a combo rollercoaster and roulette wheel? You’re up and down but simultaneously spinning and unsure of what direction until the ball stops on a color/number and everyone groans or cheers?
 

bobongo

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I sold completely out of the stock market a couple of weeks ago at S&P 3,329. It lurched up to 3,391 intraday, and then started down the ski slope.

But I didn't do it specifically because of coronavirus. I did it because the valuations were completely irrational. Both the Shiller p/e and the Buffet Indicator were flashing red, at or near record levels. The market was way, way, way too high. It still is, even after the drop. The upside was tiny and the downside, which we're experiencing now, was abysmal. Any shock would send it plummeting. And it did.
 

CuseJacket

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I sold completely out of the stock market a couple of weeks ago at S&P 3,329. It lurched up to 3,391 intraday, and then started down the ski slope.

But I didn't do it specifically because of coronavirus. I did it because the valuations were completely irrational. Both the Shiller p/e and the Buffet Indicator were flashing red, at or near record levels. The market was way, way, way too high. It still is, even after the drop. The upside was tiny and the downside, which we're experiencing now, was abysmal. Any shock would send it plummeting. And it did.
No way to prove that theory either way that I can tell, unfortunately. I actually think the fundamentals looked better than you suggest. Valuations being too high has been a proclamation for years and in many past cycles that were often followed by 50%+ gains subsequent. Most of the current rollercoaster has been correlated with Coronavirus events and news. Maybe we'll find out once things settle, but I don't suspect that'll happen soon and I also don't think recovery happens quickly, so it's hard to prove either way on the back end too.
 

bobongo

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No way to prove that theory either way that I can tell, unfortunately. I actually think the fundamentals looked better than you suggest. Valuations being too high has been a proclamation for years and in many past cycles that were often followed by 50%+ gains subsequent. Most of the current rollercoaster has been correlated with Coronavirus events and news. Maybe we'll find out once things settle, but I don't suspect that'll happen soon and I also don't think recovery happens quickly, so it's hard to prove either way on the back end too.

The valuations were astronomical. The Buffet indicator, which measures total stock market capitalization against GNP, was at an all-time high. It still indicates, even after the fall, a seriously over-bloated market. The Shiller p/e is a p/e that attempts to take temporary earnings fluctuations out of consideration, and it, too, was at an all-time high. Valuations based on these two indicators were higher than ever before. Valuations based on simple p/e may have been high before, but those are misleading due to the fluctuation of earnings and the unpredictability of where they're heading. But now, at any rate, they're headed south.

Coupled with this, we have a deficit that is one trillion dollars, even though the economy had a façade of strength. More stimulus spending will only increase the Debt to even more dangerous levels. On top of that, the FED has already cut interest rates to alarmingly low levels, leaving them with few weapons left. In fact, interest rates are so low any further cut simply accentuates the fact that there's almost no cutting left to do, which has the effect of alarming the market further - the opposite effect from that which is intended. For all practical purposes, the FED is out of bullets.

It's a perfect storm. Now comes a worldwide recession, to set off the selling. The selling will continue, on past the point of reasonable valuation because the market always overshoots. I'm not going to be interested in jumping back into this market until I see another 30 percent decline, bare minimum.
 

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The valuations were astronomical. The Buffet indicator, which measures total stock market capitalization against GNP, was at an all-time high. It still indicates, even after the fall, a seriously over-bloated market. The Shiller p/e is a p/e that attempts to take temporary earnings fluctuations out of consideration, and it, too, was at an all-time high. Valuations based on these two indicators were higher than ever before. Valuations based on simple p/e may have been high before, but those are misleading due to the fluctuation of earnings and the unpredictability of where they're heading. But now, at any rate, they're headed south.

Coupled with this, we have a deficit that is one trillion dollars, even though the economy had a façade of strength. More stimulus spending will only increase the Debt to even more dangerous levels. On top of that, the FED has already cut interest rates to alarmingly low levels, leaving them with few weapons left. In fact, interest rates are so low any further cut simply accentuates the fact that there's almost no cutting left to do, which has the effect of alarming the market further - the opposite effect from that which is intended. For all practical purposes, the FED is out of bullets.

It's a perfect storm. Now comes a worldwide recession, to set off the selling. The selling will continue, on past the point of reasonable valuation because the market always overshoots. I'm not going to be interested in jumping back into this market until I see another 30 percent decline, bare minimum.

With the caveat that I would never want to make that precise of a prediction, it would not surprise me if that happened. It would also not surprise me if the market was currently at the bottom as China shows signs of coming back to normal. For example, every single Apple store in the entire country is back open again, etc.

Fundamentals and valuations only get you so far. A large determining factor is people’s emotional responses.
 
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