Far From Perfect

stinger78

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I could not disagree more, especially in the context of Saturday. I am going for it 10 out of 10 in that situation.
Even if we don’t make it, we have them pin back on our one yard line with the crowd in their ears. That’s a heck of a lot more uncomfortable than being down 3-0 taking the kick off at the 25.
Initially I hated the play call, but seeing it on the replay, there is no reason that shouldn’t have worked. We had three blockers on three defenders and Jamal Haynes with the ball. I would take that every day of the week.

ETA- I haven’t gone back and watched, but I suspect that play is a very simple read based on the defense alignment. We had four to the right and I suspect we had one split out to the left. If the defense puts four out wide and shades to the split receiver to the left, we’re running for a yard against the light box. If the defense does what Clemson did and ignores the eye candy on the outside, we flip it out quickly and take advantage of numbers in space. Problem is our three blockers only managed to block two of their defenders.
I have to disagree. As was said, going for the TD was not a bad call, IMPO. However, when you’re going against a top-shelf D you’d better take the points you can get. That forsaken 3 points was critical and made the game a score closer the rest of the afternoon. Had we kicked that FG, Clem never would have led the way the rest of the game played out.
 

LT 1967

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I don't feel qualified to make too many judgements concerning strategy, but the one situation that bothered me was the defensive call when Clemson had the 3rd and 22 in the third quarter.

If I am correct, we went into the dreaded "PREVENT" defense and promptly allowed Clemson's big back to pick up the first down straight up the middle of our defense.
 

CEB

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I know going for it is the 'sexy" choice and is the preferred choice for most fans. But you are playing a team with a weak O and a much stouter D. I would say that the odds are a lot higher of converting a FG than a 2 yard run or pass. Now if you are CPJ and have little or no faith in your D (in other words expecting to be in a 48 - 45 type of game), then by all means go for it. Again, I know that my way of thinking is not the more 'popular" of the two choices here.
“sexy” and I haven’t collided in the same thought for a loooong time… I appreciate you! ;)

Fair, but I don’t think that sitauation can be treated like any other “sexy”fourth and short. It was the opening possession, we went right down the field against that stout defense, and anything less than a touchdown was a defensive win for them. Not only that, giving their offense the ball in a comfortable spot was an offensive win for them too. I think that was completely the correct choice. I would feel differently if we were at the 20 needing the 18.
All of that said, I do believe key has a little bit of that “if we can’t get 2 yards…” mindset. I’m not opposed to it, but I agree sometimes discretion is the better part of valor
 

stinger78

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I don't feel qualified to make too many judgements concerning strategy, but the one situation that bothered me was the defensive call when Clemson had the 3rd and 22 in the third quarter.

If I am correct, we went into the dreaded "PREVENT" defense and promptly allowed Clemson's big back to pick up the first down straight up the middle of our defense.
The saddest thing to me was that was pretty obviously a “get what you can” play to set up the punt. I see that play as the equivalent of a TO in our territory.
 

CEB

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I have to disagree. As was said, going for the TD was not a bad call, IMPO. However, when you’re going against a top-shelf D you’d better take the points you can get. That forsaken 3 points was critical and made the game a score closer the rest of the afternoon. Had we kicked that FG, Clem never would have led the way the rest of the game played out.
Not quite… As it turned out, pinning them deep gave us a short field turnover, which resulted in the three points we “left on the field” the previous possession. No guarantee they cough the ball up if they’re starting with better field position, and also no guarantee that we get back in field-goal range if they made it across midfield before coughing it up.
 

slugboy

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I have to disagree. As was said, going for the TD was not a bad call, IMPO. However, when you’re going against a top-shelf D you’d better take the points you can get. That forsaken 3 points was critical and made the game a score closer the rest of the afternoon. Had we kicked that FG, Clem never would have led the way the rest of the game played out.


Here's what the odds say

IMG_0427.jpeg

I don't feel qualified to make too many judgements concerning strategy, but the one situation that bothered me was the defensive call when Clemson had the 3rd and 22 in the third quarter.

If I am correct, we went into the dreaded "PREVENT" defense and promptly allowed Clemson's big back to pick up the first down straight up the middle of our defense.
That was bad execution. Film review on that is going to be harsh.
 

stinger78

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Here's what the odds say

View attachment 19380

That was bad execution. Film review on that is going to be harsh.
Yeah, but you notice the situation is “typical.” Again, I submit that Clemson’s D is not typical. If it were about any other ACC team I would say go for it. Still, as I said, it was not a bad call. However, this is a top shelf D in a part of the field where top-shelf D’s can become extremely difficult to score on.
Another unmentioned point is this was the first possession of the game. It’s a major psychological shift for both teams between getting points on the very first possession or allowing a big defensive goal line stand.

No criticism of CBK, just stating that it wasn’t a slam dunk obvious decision (as he seemed to view it in his post-game presser).
 

stinger78

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Not quite… As it turned out, pinning them deep gave us a short field turnover, which resulted in the three points we “left on the field” the previous possession. No guarantee they cough the ball up if they’re starting with better field position, and also no guarantee that we get back in field-goal range if they made it across midfield before coughing it up.
I believe they had moved the ball out to about the 20 yard line before the fumble. That close to KOR range there. Don’t know that’s a real valid point, and it absolutely could not have played into CBK’s decision to go for it.
 

Josh H

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ETA- I haven’t gone back and watched, but I suspect that play is a very simple read based on the defense alignment. We had four to the right and I suspect we had one split out to the left. If the defense puts four out wide and shades to the split receiver to the left, we’re running for a yard against the light box. If the defense does what Clemson did and ignores the eye candy on the outside, we flip it out quickly and take advantage of numbers in space. Problem is our three blockers only managed to block two of their defenders.
Had a very nice view of it from my seats and that was exactly my understanding of that play. I was counting the defenders along with Haynes. 4 receivers in the quads bunch. 3 Clemson defenders out there to defend. Throw the screen. Unfortunately, one of the blockers didn't even get a hand on his guy. Could have been a pick six.

Simple play with a simple read, but that's what a dangerous running QB does for an offense.
 

CEB

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I believe they had moved the ball out to about the 20 yard line before the fumble. That close to KOR range there. Don’t know that’s a real valid point, and it absolutely could not have played into CBK’s decision to go for it.
The point is taking the 3 didn’t guarantee us the lead, as you assert. In fact, giving Clemson O the ball “on schedule” from the 25 makes them very comfortable for their first drive, which might have looked very different. It could’ve just as easily been 7-3 Clemson after a drive for each team.
I like the way we played it and it didn’t hurt us. After replay (and @Josh H confirmation), I even like the play design.
 

apatriot1776

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I could not disagree more, especially in the context of Saturday. I am going for it 10 out of 10 in that situation.
Even if we don’t make it, we have them pin back on our one yard line with the crowd in their ears. That’s a heck of a lot more uncomfortable than being down 3-0 taking the kick off at the 25.
Initially I hated the play call, but seeing it on the replay, there is no reason that shouldn’t have worked. We had three blockers on three defenders and Jamal Haynes with the ball. I would take that every day of the week.

ETA- I haven’t gone back and watched, but I suspect that play is a very simple read based on the defense alignment. We had four to the right and I suspect we had one split out to the left. If the defense puts four out wide and shades to the split receiver to the left, we’re running for a yard against the light box. If the defense does what Clemson did and ignores the eye candy on the outside, we flip it out quickly and take advantage of numbers in space. Problem is our three blockers only managed to block two of their defenders.
This is speculation, but I think we sent the guys out there with the plan to call timeout and kick it if we don't like the formation Clemson comes out in. We saw we had numbers and went for it. Just didn't execute.
 

stinger78

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The point is taking the 3 didn’t guarantee us the lead, as you assert. In fact, giving Clemson O the ball “on schedule” from the 25 makes them very comfortable for their first drive, which might have looked very different. It could’ve just as easily been 7-3 Clemson after a drive for each team.
I like the way we played it and it didn’t hurt us. After replay (and @Josh H confirmation), I even like the play design.
That’s fine. Again, I don’t consider it a bad decision to go for it (this is not to be taken as criticism of the decision). As it turned out, we got the ball back and scored. But CBK couldn’t have known that. It was a higher risk decision that had bigger potential upside than the FG would have had. I’m only saying that CBK passed it off like a no-brainer and I’m saying it wasn’t a no-brainer at all. There’s a good case to be made both ways.
I am ambivalent about the play but CBF had studied their tendencies and I’m sure that went into his call. Yes, our guy totally whiffed the block.
 
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Northeast Stinger

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The point is taking the 3 didn’t guarantee us the lead, as you assert. In fact, giving Clemson O the ball “on schedule” from the 25 makes them very comfortable for their first drive, which might have looked very different. It could’ve just as easily been 7-3 Clemson after a drive for each team.
I like the way we played it and it didn’t hurt us. After replay (and @Josh H confirmation), I even like the play design.
Yep. I had zero problems with the call. We had Clemson’s vaunted defense on their heels. It was a good time to try to strike before they settled into game rhythm. And knowing that if we didn’t make it they would be pinned deep was an added bonus.

Key knew that limiting the number of possessions Clemson had was central to winning. A long field versus a short field for them, by definition, limits their possessions. Also, there are more chances for things to go wrong with a long field, everything from a penalty to a savage hit by a defender causing a fumble.
 

devcon

Jolly Good Fellow
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194
Faulkner’s sneak play on fourth down was baffling.
This play worked more than perfectly the previous time we ran it (vs. Duke, 12:30 first quarter.) The Clempy DL stuffed it (which would have happened no matter who was taking the snap) and J.T. dropped it.
 

stinger78

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Yep. I had zero problems with the call. We had Clemson’s vaunted defense on their heels. It was a good time to try to strike before they settled into game rhythm. And knowing that if we didn’t make it they would be pinned deep was an added bonus.

Key knew that limiting the number of possessions Clemson had was central to winning. A long field versus a short field for them, by definition, limits their possessions. Also, there are more chances for things to go wrong with a long field, everything from a penalty to a savage hit by a defender causing a fumble.
Just curious, how would a KO after a FG result in a short field? Birr routinely puts the KO into the EZ. That’s a 75 yard field, which is pretty long IMO.
 
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