ESPN: ACC to meet about changing men's hoops narrative

[joehamiltonfan14]

Clemson not making it is really an eye opener…23-10 and 14-6 in the ACC should have been enough. It’s really discouraging for programs like ours that are trying to break into the tournament.

The simple fact is that for whatever reason, the committee gives nonconference games in November/December greater weight than January and February ACC games. Unless you kill it in no conference (3 losses or less, and none to a bottom feeder) you have an uphill climb. It’s really a flawed system.

 

[g0lftime]

Not surprisin, but Dean and Coach K are no longer coaching.
ACC teams are not getting the same opportunities when beating Duke or UNC these days.
Clemson beat Duke this year and was 14-6 in ACC games

Young first year coach and young team. The one and done model isn't working as well against these teams cobbled together with older talented and experienced transfers. On paper UNC should have been dominant this year in the ACC with 4 starters back.. Several are going into the portal and rumors there were locker room problems between two players over a girl. Bacot coming back however. The league is transitioning with coaching changes, adjusting to the portal, and NIL. It's a new world in college basketball.

 

[mstranahan]

Some noise today from prominent TarHole alums (believe it was Vince Carter, but can't find the article to confirm). Basically said the kids all got paid and were lazy / unfocused. Nothing that wasn't obvious from watching them, but this wouldn't have been said publicly if Dean was still alive. Times are changing

 

[orientalnc]

Some noise today from prominent TarHole alums (believe it was Vince Carter, but can't find the article to confirm). Basically said the kids all got paid and were lazy / unfocused. Nothing that wasn't obvious from watching them, but this wouldn't have been said publicly if Dean was still alive. Times are changing

Lazy is not what was said or implied. These UNC hate posts do not have any value.

Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison blame NIL for UNC basketball's struggles: 'We got comfortable and cocky'

...

247sports.com

 

[UgaBlows]

Lazy is not what was said or implied. These UNC hate posts do not have any value.

Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison blame NIL for UNC basketball's struggles: 'We got comfortable and cocky'

...

247sports.com

You might want to re-read that, laziness and complacency because of NIL are exactly what Jamison implies in his quotes.

“Jamison says Name, Image and Likeness took the Tar Heels' focus away from basketball last offseason. The Wooden and Naismith Award winner compared the months following UNC's national championship defeat to the work he and his teammates put in following the Tar Heels' loss to Arizona in the 1997 Final Four, their first of two straight national semifinals appearances.”

“NIL," Jamison responded when asked what went wrong with the 2022-23 team. "Vince, think about this, after our sophomore year, when we lost to Arizona. We come back. Everyone stays both sessions of summer school. We play all summer. We were staying up to three or four in the morning just putting up shots. Think about coming back next season, and after you get done with practice, you have to go shoot a Dunkin' Donuts commercial. After I get done with practice, I got to go shoot a car dealership commercial. I get it. I truly believe players deserve to get paid for their Name, Image and Likeness, but I probably don't think we make it to the Final Four next year because you're getting almost a million dollars."

Jamison says UNC's lack of motivation was never more evident than during their 63-57 loss at Duke on Feb. 4.”

 

[slugboy]

You might want to re-read that, laziness and complacency because of NIL are exactly what Jamison implies in his quotes.

“Jamison says Name, Image and Likeness took the Tar Heels' focus away from basketball last offseason. The Wooden and Naismith Award winner compared the months following UNC's national championship defeat to the work he and his teammates put in following the Tar Heels' loss to Arizona in the 1997 Final Four, their first of two straight national semifinals appearances.”

“NIL," Jamison responded when asked what went wrong with the 2022-23 team. "Vince, think about this, after our sophomore year, when we lost to Arizona. We come back. Everyone stays both sessions of summer school. We play all summer. We were staying up to three or four in the morning just putting up shots. Think about coming back next season, and after you get done with practice, you have to go shoot a Dunkin' Donuts commercial. After I get done with practice, I got to go shoot a car dealership commercial. I get it. I truly believe players deserve to get paid for their Name, Image and Likeness, but I probably don't think we make it to the Final Four next year because you're getting almost a million dollars."

Jamison says UNC's lack of motivation was never more evident than during their 63-57 loss at Duke on Feb. 4.”

Or, players don’t want to sprain a wrist or twist an ankle in a pickup game, because they’ll lose income if they’re hurt. It sounds like they’re risk-averse.

 

[TooTall]

Only 1 P5 team in the final four....go ACC!

 

[slugboy]

Only 1 P5 team in the final four....go ACC!

Underrated conference

And, with that, I correctly predicted 0 of the 4 final four teams.

I think it’s coming down to @MidtownJacket and @jeb84. @LawTalkin Jacket is in the lead, but I don’t think you have any teams left in the final 4, do you?

 

[mstranahan]

Lazy is not what was said or implied. These UNC hate posts do not have any value.

I disagree respectfully and think lazy is exactly what was implied. "I just think we got to the point where we got complacent and thought it was going to be as easy as it was last year."

That said, it wasn't a "UNC hate post". There are thousands of those on this board, as well as Duke hate posts. I was simply pointing out that the whole landscape of college hoops has radically changed. Both the NIL aspect and the lack of control coaches have over their players and alums. (Dean was famous for keeping things like this in house and not having people air their dirty laundry in public.)

 

[Peacone36]

Be a Larranaga fan

 

[dtm1997]

Be a Larranaga fan

This might be the most likeable Miami team of any kind in history and I will give no credit to their AD for their success. He's a piece of who can eat ****.

 

[orientalnc]

I disagree respectfully and think lazy is exactly what was implied. "I just think we got to the point where we got complacent and thought it was going to be as easy as it was last year."

That said, it wasn't a "UNC hate post". There are thousands of those on this board, as well as Duke hate posts. I was simply pointing out that the whole landscape of college hoops has radically changed. Both the NIL aspect and the lack of control coaches have over their players and alums. (Dean was famous for keeping things like this in house and not having people air their dirty laundry in public.)

Lazy means you are not willing to work toward the completion of a task or to use the requisite effort required. I will buy your point that NIL is the basis for the failure to preform as expected. Maybe Carter and Jamison also believe the Heels were lazy. What they said and implied was that the team seemed to lack motivation, not that they were unwilling. I counter that with the fact that Brady Maneck was the worst player to lose off that Final Four team as his leadership kept everything glued together. I felt they deserved an invitation (along with Clemson) and would have represented the conference well.

 

[D-man44]

Imagine if the big 10 had 9 nattys since the last ACC title

 

[Root4GT]

Clemson not making it is really an eye opener…23-10 and 14-6 in the ACC should have been enough. It’s really discouraging for programs like ours that are trying to break into the tournament.

The simple fact is that for whatever reason, the committee gives nonconference games in November/December greater weight than January and February ACC games. Unless you kill it in no conference (3 losses or less, and none to a bottom feeder) you have an uphill climb. It’s really a flawed system.

People have to get past conference records. They mean very little to the selection committee. Every team plays 20 conference games. If every team played every conference team 2 times they would play 28 conference games. Who you play or don’t play in conference really matters.

Teams that beat ND, GT, Louisville and FSU got very little credit for those wins. Miami’s losses to GT & FSU likely dropped them from a 3 seed to a 5 seed.

 

[CuseJacket]

 

[Northeast Stinger]

This is even more infuriating when you put it in this perspective.

 

[Root4GT]

This is even more infuriating when you put it in this perspective.

Based on this year’s tournament the Power conferences should get fewer bids and the non power conferences should get more bids. Seems the ACC bids were about right.

 

[CEB]

Based on this year’s tournament the Power conferences should get fewer bids and the non power conferences should get more bids. Seems the ACC bids were about right.

Well, if it worked that way, the Big East is leading the argument. However, their next candidate was likely Villanova, so... Sometimes there is a very clear delineation point and the relative strength of the conference doesn't matter.

The last four out, according to the committee were OK State, Rutgers, UNC and Clemson. Big 12 held their own; OK State has an argument. Big Ten was the worst performing conference overall and had the most teams in... Rutgers is a non-starter. UNC and Clemson missing the tournament seems like a legit gripe in retrospect. The committee liked UNC more, but Clemson felt like a better representative to me.

The only problem with saying that BIG should've had fewer is that Penn State is probably the last BIG team in, and they were playing better basketball than several other teams in the conference. Maybe we can all agree that MS State should've stayed home in favor of OK St or Clemson?

Adding the Big 12 and Big East to my earlier summary (and updating for Miami), and I may as well put them in order:

Big East = the runaway winner of major / multi bid conferences. 10-4 overall, and 8-1 as a favorite (that's really impressive in a tournament format). 2-3 as underdog. Everything UConn does from here is as a favorite...

ACC = Now 7-4 overall (Miami still playing).
ACC is 2-1 as a favorite, 4-3 as a dog and 1-0 neutral.
Initially I said Miami would be the lower seed the rest of the way. Saturday they will be, but if they advance they play an equal or lower seed (hard to imagine)

Big 12 = 9-7 overall. 9-5 as upper seed, and 0-2 as a dog. I feel like I need to check this again... they played 16 games and only TWO as the lower seed? Wow... that's some favorable seeding! But they lived up to it.... better showing than both BIG and SEC

Mtn West = 4-3 overall, and SDSU can improve (or drop them to .500). they are 3-0 as favorite, 1-2 as dogs and 0-1 in neutral. SDSU is the only conference team to win a game, so while their percentage is slightly above Big 12, right now I feel like the Big 12 had a better showing. Hard to continue this argument the longer SDSU plays.

SEC = 9-8 overall. They were 7-4 as the favored seed and 2-3 as the lower seed. They are 0-1 in “neutral” games; MSU lost the 11 seed play in to Pitt.

PAC = 3-4 overall. They were 2-2 as a favorite, 0-2 as a dog and 1-0 in "neutral" (AZST won play in). If not for UCLA, this is ugly.

BIG = 6-8 overall. They were 4-3 as a favorite and 2-5 as underdog. Michigan St is the only team to claim multiple wins. If not for Sparty, this is even uglier.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Well, if it worked that way, the Big East is leading the argument. However, their next candidate was likely Villanova, so... Sometimes there is a very clear delineation point and the relative strength of the conference doesn't matter.

The last four out, according to the committee were OK State, Rutgers, UNC and Clemson. Big 12 held their own; OK State has an argument. Big Ten was the worst performing conference overall and had the most teams in... Rutgers is a non-starter. UNC and Clemson missing the tournament seems like a legit gripe in retrospect. The committee liked UNC more, but Clemson felt like a better representative to me.

The only problem with saying that BIG should've had fewer is that Penn State is probably the last BIG team in, and they were playing better basketball than several other teams in the conference. Maybe we can all agree that MS State should've stayed home in favor of OK St or Clemson?

Adding the Big 12 and Big East to my earlier summary (and updating for Miami), and I may as well put them in order:

Big East = the runaway winner of major / multi bid conferences. 10-4 overall, and 8-1 as a favorite (that's really impressive in a tournament format). 2-3 as underdog. Everything UConn does from here is as a favorite...

ACC = Now 7-4 overall (Miami still playing).
ACC is 2-1 as a favorite, 4-3 as a dog and 1-0 neutral.
Initially I said Miami would be the lower seed the rest of the way. Saturday they will be, but if they advance they play an equal or lower seed (hard to imagine)

Big 12 = 9-7 overall. 9-5 as upper seed, and 0-2 as a dog. I feel like I need to check this again... they played 16 games and only TWO as the lower seed? Wow... that's some favorable seeding! But they lived up to it.... better showing than both BIG and SEC

Mtn West = 4-3 overall, and SDSU can improve (or drop them to .500). they are 3-0 as favorite, 1-2 as dogs and 0-1 in neutral. SDSU is the only conference team to win a game, so while their percentage is slightly above Big 12, right now I feel like the Big 12 had a better showing. Hard to continue this argument the longer SDSU plays.

SEC = 9-8 overall. They were 7-4 as the favored seed and 2-3 as the lower seed. They are 0-1 in “neutral” games; MSU lost the 11 seed play in to Pitt.

PAC = 3-4 overall. They were 2-2 as a favorite, 0-2 as a dog and 1-0 in "neutral" (AZST won play in). If not for UCLA, this is ugly.

BIG = 6-8 overall. They were 4-3 as a favorite and 2-5 as underdog. Michigan St is the only team to claim multiple wins. If not for Sparty, this is even uglier.

Good work. Thank you.

 

[Root4GT]

Well, if it worked that way, the Big East is leading the argument. However, their next candidate was likely Villanova, so... Sometimes there is a very clear delineation point and the relative strength of the conference doesn't matter.

The last four out, according to the committee were OK State, Rutgers, UNC and Clemson. Big 12 held their own; OK State has an argument. Big Ten was the worst performing conference overall and had the most teams in... Rutgers is a non-starter. UNC and Clemson missing the tournament seems like a legit gripe in retrospect. The committee liked UNC more, but Clemson felt like a better representative to me.

The only problem with saying that BIG should've had fewer is that Penn State is probably the last BIG team in, and they were playing better basketball than several other teams in the conference. Maybe we can all agree that MS State should've stayed home in favor of OK St or Clemson?

Adding the Big 12 and Big East to my earlier summary (and updating for Miami), and I may as well put them in order:

Big East = the runaway winner of major / multi bid conferences. 10-4 overall, and 8-1 as a favorite (that's really impressive in a tournament format). 2-3 as underdog. Everything UConn does from here is as a favorite...

ACC = Now 7-4 overall (Miami still playing).
ACC is 2-1 as a favorite, 4-3 as a dog and 1-0 neutral.
Initially I said Miami would be the lower seed the rest of the way. Saturday they will be, but if they advance they play an equal or lower seed (hard to imagine)

Big 12 = 9-7 overall. 9-5 as upper seed, and 0-2 as a dog. I feel like I need to check this again... they played 16 games and only TWO as the lower seed? Wow... that's some favorable seeding! But they lived up to it.... better showing than both BIG and SEC

Mtn West = 4-3 overall, and SDSU can improve (or drop them to .500). they are 3-0 as favorite, 1-2 as dogs and 0-1 in neutral. SDSU is the only conference team to win a game, so while their percentage is slightly above Big 12, right now I feel like the Big 12 had a better showing. Hard to continue this argument the longer SDSU plays.

SEC = 9-8 overall. They were 7-4 as the favored seed and 2-3 as the lower seed. They are 0-1 in “neutral” games; MSU lost the 11 seed play in to Pitt.

PAC = 3-4 overall. They were 2-2 as a favorite, 0-2 as a dog and 1-0 in "neutral" (AZST won play in). If not for UCLA, this is ugly.

BIG = 6-8 overall. They were 4-3 as a favorite and 2-5 as underdog. Michigan St is the only team to claim multiple wins. If not for Sparty, this is even uglier.

Good info. Concerns over who should be the last 4 in vs the first 4 out really are not very important to the overall tournament most years. There are some exceptions of course as Cuse demonstrated a few years ago.

Miami's losses to GT and FSU were major red flags in their seedings and likely dropped them from a 3 seed to a 5 seed. Can't have 2 very bad losses and be a top 16 seeded team.