Culture Built On Effort vs Technique and Execution

[Adadu]

Leach makes some good points here. Idk exactly what CGC’s approach is but how do we differentiate between “effort” in practice and actual execution?

 

[Vespidae]

I don’t know about CGC, but instruction today is centered around block practice, random practice, and game practice.

Block practice is to refine technique and get the skill down. Random practice is just that ... going beyond skill and trying the technique under many different conditions. Gaming is to make it fun and keep score ... e.g., 20/22 completions.

Most do block practice, which is the least effective.

 

[LibertyTurns]

I get the rationale behind the “culture” but I’ll offer a contrary position- I evaluate my guys off results, not effort. Yes I want them working hard, but not every hard worker is a good performer. Effort is not results. I want gamers, not practice heroes. Maybe I’m biased because I rode the pine a long time because my coaches “didn’t see it” in multiple sports. Once I got into a game, I never left the field in any sport I played. I never fit the mold. I had a couple extra gears on game day that nobody else around me did. I just didn’t hop around like others so that probably was perceived as less than fully motivated maybe, but I clearly had better technique always and was significantly stronger than my competition. I mean how many times did I have to decleat someone in practice get into a game? You’d have thought the third dude they brought smelling salts out for would have been enough. Guess I should have grunted & danced.

 

[YJMD]

If the effort is put into building skill and execution then...

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I get the rationale behind the “culture” but I’ll offer a contrary position- I evaluate my guys off results, not effort. Yes I want them working hard, but not every hard worker is a good performer. Effort is not results. I want gamers, not practice heroes. Maybe I’m biased because I rode the pine a long time because my coaches “didn’t see it” in multiple sports. Once I got into a game, I never left the field in any sport I played. I never fit the mold. I had a couple extra gears on game day that nobody else around me did. I just didn’t hop around like others so that probably was perceived as less than fully motivated maybe, but I clearly had better technique always and was significantly stronger than my competition. I mean how many times did I have to decleat someone in practice get into a game? You’d have thought the third dude they brought smelling salts out for would have been enough. Guess I should have grunted & danced.

This is the Wesley Wells point - if you are flawless on gameday, that should matter. You should reward practice, but that’s not the end all be all of everything.

 

[85Escape]

I get the rationale behind the “culture” but I’ll offer a contrary position- I evaluate my guys off results, not effort. Yes I want them working hard, but not every hard worker is a good performer. Effort is not results. I want gamers, not practice heroes.

I agree, and it has caused me to be a little concerned with the approach.

We call people who work really, really hard, say all the right stuff all the time, but don't ever make an actual business impact "Boardroom Geniuses". I mean, you need some people who grind it out and produce average but very dependable results. But you won't dominate your area of business with a bunch of grinders. You need people who make *it happen, who deliver real results and who change the basis of competition.

So I reward outcome, not output and certainly not input. It's an extreme ownership mentality...we either won or we lost, no excuses. Trying hard isn't enough.

That being said, if you produce great results but are a jerk and/or create a bunch of drama, then I'll let you go be a hero at the competition and I'll be happy about it. Way too many people think that their personal outcome is what is important and it is not...the team's outcome is everything. If the net effect of having you on the team is negative, no matter how impactful you individually are, then bye-bye. So I do expect a positive and team-first attitude from everyone and won't tolerate prima-donnas long at all.

 

[LibertyTurns]

That being said, if you produce great results but are a jerk and/or create a bunch of drama, then I'll let you go be a hero at the competition and I'll be happy about it. Way too many people think that their personal outcome is what is important and it is not...the team's outcome is everything. If the net effect of having you on the team is negative, no matter how impactful you individually are, then bye-bye. So I do expect a positive and team-first attitude from everyone and won't tolerate prima-donnas long at all.

Great points. It’s what plagues the morons up the road.

 

[Animal02]

I agree, and it has caused me to be a little concerned with the approach.

We call people who work really, really hard, say all the right stuff all the time, but don't ever make an actual business impact "Boardroom Geniuses". I mean, you need some people who grind it out and produce average but very dependable results. But you won't dominate your area of business with a bunch of grinders. You need people who make *it happen, who deliver real results and who change the basis of competition.

So I reward outcome, not output and certainly not input. It's an extreme ownership mentality...we either won or we lost, no excuses. Trying hard isn't enough.

That being said, if you produce great results but are a jerk and/or create a bunch of drama, then I'll let you go be a hero at the competition and I'll be happy about it. Way too many people think that their personal outcome is what is important and it is not...the team's outcome is everything. If the net effect of having you on the team is negative, no matter how impactful you individually are, then bye-bye. So I do expect a positive and team-first attitude from everyone and won't tolerate prima-donnas long at all.

Yep.....there is that line that gets crossed where a productive jerk gets too disruptive and causes a net loss of production by his effect on everyone else.

 

[Ibeeballin]

A culture built on effort is usually followed up with “Competition is King” “& “How we do anything is how we doing everything”

This where results and production come into play. How can your effort of competing for 4 days of practice not be up to snuff to your competitor, but you expect the trust factor to be there on gameday when you are really needed. I really think Wells is an exception to the rule (and also injured), but you can’t preach this an “Entitlement free zone” yet want past results to matter more than what’s currently happening

 

[Sarrick]

Why is this a vs? Really these two things should go hand in hand. The effort that you use in practice to improve technique will give you the highest percentage chance of execution in games.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

A culture built on effort is usually followed up with “Competition is King” “& “How we do anything is how we doing everything”

This where results and production come into play. How can your effort of competing for 4 days of practice not be up to snuff to your competitor, but you expect the trust factor to be there on gameday when you are really needed. I really think Wells is an exception to the rule (and also injured), but you can’t preach this an “Entitlement free zone” yet want past results to matter more than what’s currently happening

If Wells is injured that explains everything. This whole thread is silly.

 

[85Escape]

Why is this a vs? Really these two things should go hand in hand. The effort that you use in practice to improve technique will give you the highest percentage chance of execution in games.

I agree. I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. But while great effort in practice might be necessary to be a champion, it definitely isn't sufficient. I think CGC's belief is to get the attitude and culture right no matter the cost in the first year or two of the program and build towards on-field excellence in years three to seven. He's got time to tank, and all the ability to blame it on talent in the next year (or maybe two.) So establishing a culture even at the cost of winning might be the plan.

Actually not a bad strategy; just not a very satisfying one for us in the here-and-now who just don't want to feel crappy on Saturday afternoon. And he certainly can't say that for a whole host of reasons.

 

[lv20gt]

I agree. I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. But while great effort in practice might be necessary to be a champion, it definitely isn't sufficient. I think CGC's belief is to get the attitude and culture right no matter the cost in the first year or two of the program and build towards on-field excellence in years three to seven. He's got time to tank, and all the ability to blame it on talent in the next year (or maybe two.) So establishing a culture even at the cost of winning might be the plan.

Attitude, effort, and "culture" is something you can do regardless of talent or ability. It allows something for the coaches to point to and praise, and build on, while the execution and technique is being developed. I don't think it's so much at the expense of the execution and technique but rather a positive to balance out the very likely putcome of struggles in the other areas during the transition.

 

[bke1984]

A culture built on effort is usually followed up with “Competition is King” “& “How we do anything is how we doing everything”

This where results and production come into play. How can your effort of competing for 4 days of practice not be up to snuff to your competitor, but you expect the trust factor to be there on gameday when you are really needed. I really think Wells is an exception to the rule (and also injured), but you can’t preach this an “Entitlement free zone” yet want past results to matter more than what’s currently happening

This can go too far. If you’ve ever managed a team of resources then you have to know when it’s time to push them to the max and when it’s not time to do so.

This is not a plug to say he was always right, but have you ever read Dodd’s Luck? His stance on practice was very different than say, Robert Neyland (for whom he played)...yet Dodd still produced incredible results on game day.

Point being that there are many ways to drive results, and simply pushing as hard as you can 100% of the time and judging who gives the best effort or who produces under this simulated stress isn’t necessarily he best approach. Can it work? Absolutely...but I can also backfire in a very bad way. People (especially intelligent ones) understand the difference between effort that matters and effort that doesn’t. People that are truly driven by competition don’t always perform well in practice or simulations. But when it matters they show up in a big way.

Now does this mean if you completely slack at practice you should play? Of course not...I just hope they’re drawing the line correctly.

 

[White_Gold]

I get the rationale behind the “culture” but I’ll offer a contrary position- I evaluate my guys off results, not effort. Yes I want them working hard, but not every hard worker is a good performer. Effort is not results. I want gamers, not practice heroes. Maybe I’m biased because I rode the pine a long time because my coaches “didn’t see it” in multiple sports. Once I got into a game, I never left the field in any sport I played. I never fit the mold. I had a couple extra gears on game day that nobody else around me did. I just didn’t hop around like others so that probably was perceived as less than fully motivated maybe, but I clearly had better technique always and was significantly stronger than my competition. I mean how many times did I have to decleat someone in practice get into a game? You’d have thought the third dude they brought smelling salts out for would have been enough. Guess I should have grunted & danced.

I’m trying to figure out if you believe that you can get better at anything without giving proper effort. Do you find that to be the case?


I’m 100% ok with benching players that are deemed to be not giving enough effort, especially this year. If players are doing that, they have no place in our program. That is a cancer mentality and not worthy of a GT uniform.

I want guys that care and understand that every single rep is important.


Regarding your story, sounds like everything can be explained by you getting in during garbage time lmao.

 

[LibertyTurns]

I’m trying to figure out if you believe that you can get better at anything without giving proper effort. Do you find that to be the case?


I’m 100% ok with benching players that are deemed to be not giving enough effort, especially this year. If players are doing that, they have no place in our program. That is a cancer mentality and not worthy of a GT uniform.

I want guys that care and understand that every single rep is important.


Regarding your story, sounds like everything can be explained by you getting in during garbage time lmao.

Once I saw the field or got into the game I never came back off. Never, not in any sport I’ve ever played at any level I played at- football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, wrestling, track, etc. Played wire to wire.

A football team needs to peak on Saturday. I’ve never seen a team run at peak effort for a sustained duration of time. That being said, CGC needs to coach his own way. He’s getting paid to produce.

At work my organization really valued the high effort guys. I had to retrain them to value the highly productive/ effective. You can work round the clock, have a high motor, but all that means is you can waste more resources more rapidly if you’re doing the wrong stuff.

 

[Animal02]

Once I saw the field or got into the game I never came back off. Never, not in any sport I’ve ever played at any level I played at- football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, wrestling, track, etc. Played wire to wire.

A football team needs to peak on Saturday. I’ve never seen a team run at peak effort for a sustained duration of time. That being said, CGC needs to coach his own way. He’s getting paid to produce.

At work my organization really valued the high effort guys. I had to retrain them to value the highly productive/ effective. You can work round the clock, have a high motor, but all that means is you can waste more resources more rapidly if you’re doing the wrong stuff.

Yep....a good coach will know how to manage the emotions and drive of a team to get a peak on game day. It is also difficult to keep hitting that peak week after week....which is why you see top ranked teams stumble every so often.

 

[White_Gold]

Once I saw the field or got into the game I never came back off. Never, not in any sport I’ve ever played at any level I played at- football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, wrestling, track, etc. Played wire to wire.

A football team needs to peak on Saturday. I’ve never seen a team run at peak effort for a sustained duration of time. That being said, CGC needs to coach his own way. He’s getting paid to produce.

At work my organization really valued the high effort guys. I had to retrain them to value the highly productive/ effective. You can work round the clock, have a high motor, but all that means is you can waste more resources more rapidly if you’re doing the wrong stuff.

I don’t disagree. What’s interesting is that, A big complaint from the players about CPJ was that they’d go full pads on Wednesday’s and do a significant portion of practice live. Very few teams do that. Practically none.

My guess is that had a very big effect on the teams. I’ll defer to @Ibeeballin to weigh in.

 

[LibertyTurns]

I don’t disagree. What’s interesting is that, A big complaint from the players about CPJ was that they’d go full pads on Wednesday’s and do a significant portion of practice live. Very few teams do that. Practically none.

My guess is that had a very big effect on the teams. I’ll defer to @Ibeeballin to weigh in.

We’re all going to have opinions on the coach’s style until he produces. Unfortunately for him, the path he has laid out make take longer than we have patience for. Personally, I would have taken an intersecting route- play off the strengths until I could effectively transition, attack a major area at a time. It’s rare a complete “destroy the village in order to save it” tactic works as intended. We will see. As a hardcore GT fan, I hope we made the right decision because it’s tough seeing the program in such continual turmoil.

 

[tmhunter52]

If the offensive line was known to be a major weakness this season, the offensive scheme should have been built to accommodate that weakness: run heavy, screen and quick, short passes, wheel routes, occasional long passes. That is, CPJ’s style, but with a pro style backfield. That would suggest TO or Graham as the QB. As we build the line, build the offense.