Coronavirus Thread

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armeck

Jolly Good Fellow
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Are you a doctor? Do you have any facts to support your assumption that it was a placebo? WOW. I have heard actual doctors, NOT PATIENTS, say that it worked for them in some cases they handled. WTH do you REFUSE to believe that? I guarantee you that if Trump had initially said that nobody should take it, then the media would come up with "studies" saying it was highly effective, and that Trump should leave the decisions about it up to doctors. Of course, you will adamantly REFUSE to believe that scenario too.
No I am not, the people who conducted the massive study I posted, who concluded that it DOES NOT WORK are the doctors. Man, why do you get so mad at everyone all the time and start cussing? Calm down.
But I don't see anywhere that it is the number one killer drug that he claims it to be.
I would wager that it is present in trace amounts in every single liquid form medication in production.
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
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I Googled dihydroxy oxide, and the only thing I could find is dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO). Is that what you are referring to? Neither name appears on the list I posted earlier. Apparently it is used as an ingredient in many other applications, not just drugs. There are apparently many who want it banned and many who don't want it banned. http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
Yes, that is it....
 

MWBATL

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No I am not, the people who conducted the massive study I posted, who concluded that it DOES NOT WORK are the doctors. Man, why do you get so mad at everyone all the time and start cussing? Calm down.

I would wager that it is present in trace amounts in every single liquid form medication in production.
It is....and it is present in nature as well...in many forms....
 

takethepoints

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Slight correction. By slowing down infection rate to avoid the situation where our medical facilities are overwhelmed, that in fact allows for better medical care and less deaths. In addition to just a vaccine, more time also allows medical practitioners to find new and better treatments to mitigate severity. While hydroxychloroquine appears to be a bust, remdesivir appears to be somewhat effective and doctors have learned more about other medications, interactions, best uses of ventilators, other problematic side effects previously unknown (blood clotting), etc. Slowing spread has also allowed for more availability of testing, more PPE available to both medical personnel and the public, etc. Slowing transmission will absolutely 100% have a huge impact on reducing the final fatality numbers both in the short and long term.
What you say is true: the plateau we are in, if it holds, will allow hospitals to treat cases without major space crises and it does allow more time to develop both treatments and vaccines. Let's hope we can develop one or the other soon.
 

GTRX7

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No I am not, the people who conducted the massive study I posted, who concluded that it DOES NOT WORK are the doctors. Man, why do you get so mad at everyone all the time and start cussing? Calm down.

I would wager that it is present in trace amounts in every single liquid form medication in production.

It aint just one study. Just google "hydroxychloroquine meta analysis." Pretty much every single global study of HCQ tests is concluding the same thing -- no significant benefit in treating COVID, with or without an antibiotic. Most studies, and especially the more recent ones, are also all uniformly finding increased risk of serious side effects and death. For example, here is another recent meta analysis of a different patient set: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20065276v3

It will be interesting to see what Novartis has to say, as they are the major drug company that has probably put the most resources into studying hydroxychloroquine and are currently conducting a phase III clinical trial (LINK). I don't think those results will come out soon though.
 
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No I am not, the people who conducted the massive study I posted, who concluded that it DOES NOT WORK are the doctors. Man, why do you get so mad at everyone all the time and start cussing? Calm down.

I would wager that it is present in trace amounts in every single liquid form medication in production.
Why do you choose to believe some doctors and not to believe others? Do you know their credentials or reliability, other than what the articles you read about them states? Of course you don't.
 

Deleted member 2897

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Quietly France has now caught up to Spain to tie as #3 in deaths in Europe with about 28,000. Italy is still second with 32,000. Also quietly, the UK has flown into first place with 38,000 deaths.

On a population adjusted basis, those countries deaths are 2-3x higher than in the US.
 

armeck

Jolly Good Fellow
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357
Why do you choose to believe some doctors and not to believe others? Do you know their credentials or reliability, other than what the articles you read about them states? Of course you don't.
It's not about not believing the doctors. Even THEY do not know for certain if their treatment directly "cured" their patients. They are doing trial and error and without a controlled analysis, holding all other variables constant you can't say the treatment was why someone recovered. Honestly, I can't believe I am having to explain this.

I want to ask you: Why are you holding so hard and fast to the notion that it is in fact effective. You have no scientific data to support it, and you are ignoring peer reviewed, controlled scientific analysis.
 

GTRX7

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Quietly France has now caught up to Spain to tie as #3 in deaths in Europe with about 28,000. Italy is still second with 32,000. Also quietly, the UK has flown into first place with 38,000 deaths.

On a population adjusted basis, those countries deaths are 2-3x higher than in the US.

It has definitely not gone great in those two countries. UK in particular was one of the countries that was way too late to react (LINK). That caused a big explosion early. On a population adjusted basis, they are unquestionably doing worse than the US, though they also have significantly higher population densities (UK 725 ppl/sqmi, France 319 ppl/sqmi, US 87 ppl/sqmi).

The good news for both countries is that their 5-day rolling average of daily new cases is generally going down at an encouraging rate, with France looking to be past the worst of it. The US as well, but not as aggressively (particularly outside of NYC).

100551717_10111700430006320_3703939114140172288_n.jpg
 

IEEEWreck

Ramblin' Wreck
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Funny again
Did you know that formerly esteemed Lancet journal was using Fortran to predict 2.2 million dead Americans.
Those same code developers have crashed spacecraft before .
No Zinc, just more BS
I'm sorry, you want me to believe that that you got out with a EE? Even the most zappy power engineer knows the difference between a language and a program. And respects the applications and beautiful memory allocation transparency of Fortran.
Well, its my opinion their study is still wrong. And that your opinion at the end "no one fires employees and scales down operations while there are still orders to fill" is also false. When there are black swan types of events like this, its very common for people to both try and get out ahead of the curve as well as hanging on for awhile to give things a chance to turn around. Every company and their business and cash position and ownership philosophy is unique.

I can say that the number of churches in a city is directly related to the number of murders. I can show you charts that show nearly a 1 to 1 correlation. But thats scientifically devoid of any actual causation. Its population that drive both of those, generally speaking.

Yeah, but that's a fundamental result of market dynamics. The short term shut down price dictates this, and the hesitancy to fire people and the stickiness of wages reinforce it. Give me a bit, I'm not in a mood to do a Google scholar search, but I promise this is an important result of operations research since like the 60's.

I didn't make up the chart. How can you refute stats like that?

By understanding what statistics mean and when they're being misrepresented?

Actually, I believe you are just factually wrong here.

You must have missed the interview with the Nursing Home Manager who appealed to state officials to put those patients in the Javits Center or on the Hospital ship Comfort.

This is from that totally right wing news source, the NY Times:

New York has faced particular scrutiny for a March 25 state health department directive requiring nursing homes to take recovering coronavirus patients.

“A number of nursing homes have felt constrained by the order and admitted hospital discharged patients without knowing what their COVID status was,” said Chris Laxton, executive director of the Society for Post-Acute and Long-Term Care Medicine. “This order made an already difficult situation almost impossible.”

The order, similar to one in neighboring New Jersey, was intended to help free up hospital beds for the sickest patients as cases surged. But critics have suggested nursing homes were already overwhelmed and a better solution might have been sending them to the virtually empty Jacob K. Javits Convention Center, which was retrofitted to treat COVID-19 patients, or an even less utilized Navy hospital ship that has since left Manhattan.


You might want to double check your own sources before you tell someone else they are factually incorrect.

So, you see, there were beds available, in facilities that were dedicated to covid care, and the state chose not to go that route. As did NJ. This just MIGHT be why NY and NJ have the two highest mortality rates in the USA from covid. Because, you know...facts...


I mean, its kind of hilarious that you bring up facts and then state opinions of one man who doesnt know the facts.

Yeah, it would have been a good idea to offload those folks to the javits center. It's almost like I mentioned this or something. It would have required building out the javits center differently, but it could have been done. Again, it's too bad there isn't some sort of division of engineers in this country that can build out hospitals that can accept difficult patients like CoVID patients or nursing home patients.

Actually, scratch that. We will need more than a division. We'll need like 3 - 5 divisions. Let's call it a corps of engineers. Maybe we can work on that. Maybe we could even have some sort of medical corps in the army, air force, Navy, and national guard that could be deployed to staff these places in emergencies.

You couldn't take them on the Mercy, though. Strangely enough, the Mercy doesn't have an air system that allows for isolation of infectious patients. Maybe something to add to the next batch. But her complement and equipment could have been used to staff other facilities. Like her helicopters and operating rooms might have given the javits center the facilities to take more meaningful numbers of CoViD patients.

But again, this is a pipe dream where there's a federal government that collaborates with state government and deploys it's resources to save Americans. That's not the America we've chosen to build.

In that America, the Navy wouldn't take CoViD patients and Javits didn't have the resources to take the patients. But only because our sailors were crippled by ineffective federal administration.

Are you a doctor? Do you have any facts to support your assumption that it was a placebo? WOW. I have heard actual doctors, NOT PATIENTS, say that it worked for them in some cases they handled. WTH do you REFUSE to believe that? I guarantee you that if Trump had initially said that nobody should take it, then the media would come up with "studies" saying it was highly effective, and that Trump should leave the decisions about it up to doctors. Of course, you will adamantly REFUSE to believe that scenario too.

I believe no man, but rather repeatable data. C'mon, this is basic skepticism and scientific method stuff.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
I'm sorry, you want me to believe that that you got out with a EE? Even the most zappy power engineer knows the difference between a language and a program. And respects the applications and beautiful memory allocation transparency of Fortran.


Yeah, but that's a fundamental result of market dynamics. The short term shut down price dictates this, and the hesitancy to fire people and the stickiness of wages reinforce it. Give me a bit, I'm not in a mood to do a Google scholar search, but I promise this is an important result of operations research since like the 60's.



By understanding what statistics mean and when they're being misrepresented?




I mean, its kind of hilarious that you bring up facts and then state opinions of one man who doesnt know the facts.

Yeah, it would have been a good idea to offload those folks to the javits center. It's almost like I mentioned this or something. It would have required building out the javits center differently, but it could have been done. Again, it's too bad there isn't some sort of division of engineers in this country that can build out hospitals that can accept difficult patients like CoVID patients or nursing home patients.

Actually, scratch that. We will need more than a division. We'll need like 3 - 5 divisions. Let's call it a corps of engineers. Maybe we can work on that. Maybe we could even have some sort of medical corps in the army, air force, Navy, and national guard that could be deployed to staff these places in emergencies.

You couldn't take them on the Mercy, though. Strangely enough, the Mercy doesn't have an air system that allows for isolation of infectious patients. Maybe something to add to the next batch. But her complement and equipment could have been used to staff other facilities. Like her helicopters and operating rooms might have given the javits center the facilities to take more meaningful numbers of CoViD patients.

But again, this is a pipe dream where there's a federal government that collaborates with state government and deploys it's resources to save Americans. That's not the America we've chosen to build.

In that America, the Navy wouldn't take CoViD patients and Javits didn't have the resources to take the patients. But only because our sailors were crippled by ineffective federal administration.



I believe no man, but rather repeatable data. C'mon, this is basic skepticism and scientific method stuff.

Our education system is failing us.
 
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It's not about not believing the doctors. Even THEY do not know for certain if their treatment directly "cured" their patients. They are doing trial and error and without a controlled analysis, holding all other variables constant you can't say the treatment was why someone recovered. Honestly, I can't believe I am having to explain this.

I want to ask you: Why are you holding so hard and fast to the notion that it is in fact effective. You have no scientific data to support it, and you are ignoring peer reviewed, controlled scientific analysis.
Answer this question honestly for me: If you were a Covid patient with little hope for recovery, and your doctor suggested you take hydroxychloroqine, would you say no?
 
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