Coronavirus Thread

[GoldZ]

I am looking at the facts, and they seem to be pointing to this virus having a mortality rate pretty much in line with a bad flu (I know that will get some people's dander up using that word), and that's with having a flu vaccine. Again, this is fluid, so that could change. IF that stays the case, though, then why is the decision to get a haircut or a massage viewed as that much riskier?

Because of the contagious factor being so high on a relative basis= many more deaths vs flu. OFs also want haircuts! :>)

 

[gthxxxx]

Too many replies to quote, but regarding new GA opening conditions, you can always go to georgia.gov. There's a big button in the middle of the page that says "GEORGIA'S COVID-19 RESPONSE". Clicking that, one of the links in the highlight box is "Statewide Shelter In Place Order". Clicking that and scrolling down, you'll see a chronological order of what's currently still in effect. There's this section:

Some Businesses Currently Closed Will Soon Reopen
On Friday, April 24, some businesses that are currently closed will begin to reopen with Minimum Basic Operations. These businesses include gyms, fitness centers, bowling alleys, body art studios, barbers, cosmetologists, hair designers, nail care artists, estheticians, their respective schools, and massage therapists. Minimum Basic Operations includes, but is not limited to, screening workers for fever and respiratory illness, enhancing workplace sanitation, wearing masks and gloves if appropriate, separating workspaces by 6 feet, teleworking if possible, and implementing staggered shifts.

On Monday, April 27, and subject to specific social distancing and sanitation mandates, theaters, private social clubs and restaurant dine-in services will be allowed to reopen. More information will be released in the next few days, so please check back for updates.

Here's the link: https://georgia.gov/covid-19-state-services-georgia/covid-19-statewide-shelter-place-order

[Edit: regarding how haircuts can still work, note that it says workspaces are separated by 6 feet, not people. Btw, this all took under 30s to check, and I don't even live in GA.]

 

[RonJohn]

One reply. If the governor hasn't made the "limitations on the business re-openings" clear by now, why do you think he ever will? Since when is it the responsibility of journalists to publicize government requirements? And why has this happened in the first place?

I hesitate to say this, but my guess is that the government of our state hasn't taken even the preliminary steps of deciding on what limitations to enforce or what kind of testing/contact regime we need.

I hate to be so cynical about this. But, to be frank, I don't think the facts bear any other interpretation. This isn't a "my side" v. "your side" debate either. You've told us what the state "should" have done. They haven't. QED.

I don't know if he has made them clear or not. I didn't watch his press conference, and I haven't looked at the state's website. What I do know is that not one single news story or report that I have seen has detailed them. It isn't the responsibility of journalists to publicize for the government, but it is their responsibility to inform the public. How much "news" currently is about information, and how much is about sowing controversy? It isn't a conservative vs. liberal situation. There is enough "news" from both sides that is constant bickering without any information.

The side-vs-side statement was more about "open" vs "remain closed". What I believe has been proposed up to this point is limited relaxation of shut down orders. However, the debate seems to be: "He is an idiot to open things back up" vs "The economy has to get back to normal". Look at the actual businesses and the regulations and see if individually those relaxations make sense or not, instead of some macro-level discussion about ideas:

Bowling alleys: If they are limited to 20% capacity, that would mean one of every five lanes open. That is plenty of space between groups. Are the alleys going to sanitize the balls, seats, tables, and controls every time a group leaves? Are they going to require face coverings while in the facility?

Salons: Hair, nail, and massage places bring up a lot of questions that I am not qualified to address, but seem concerning. A tanning salon has a built in sanitizer. If workers sanitize the room between clients and don't allow clients to wait in the waiting area, it seems like pretty low probability of spreading infection to me.

Theaters: I don't think the movie theaters are going to open in any case. Probably most live theaters won't open for political reasons. I think this is very unlikely to be an issue because of lack of the businesses reopening.

Restaurants: If strict controls are in place on capacity, distancing, and sanitizing, I don't know what the probability of spread is. For myself, I am quite comfortable eating at home.

In different states, there are things that could be open, and should have been open: Self serve storage facilities, beaches with distancing limitations and understanding of lack of lifeguards, garden center sections of already open stores.

We should be asking whether a person entering a self serve storage facility increases risk of disease. We should be asking if opening a nail salon is wise or if it carries risk of spread of disease. Instead we are arguing about what an idiot this politician is, or what a controlling fascist this other politician is.

 

[bobongo]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was the Coronavirus thread.

You didn't act like you knew it. You talked about extreme measures without mentioning the extreme circumstances.

 

[bobongo]

Yea, hopefully he got those confused. No way South Korea is Orwellian

It's a democracy.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

It's a democracy.

You can elect your leaders and still live in a nationalized police state. Again, if you test positive, they publish your name a la scarlet letter in newspapers and on the web (that would break laws here). They list the type of car you drive and your license plate. The police visit you frequently to make sure you're in quarantine. They track you via GPS, credit card transactions, and video surveillance to ensure compliance. They frequently visit your home. They also track others via GPS, credit card transactions, video surveillance that the infected folks come into contact with. IIWII.

 

[WreckinGT]

I don't know if he has made them clear or not. I didn't watch his press conference, and I haven't looked at the state's website. What I do know is that not one single news story or report that I have seen has detailed them. It isn't the responsibility of journalists to publicize for the government, but it is their responsibility to inform the public. How much "news" currently is about information, and how much is about sowing controversy? It isn't a conservative vs. liberal situation. There is enough "news" from both sides that is constant bickering without any information.

The side-vs-side statement was more about "open" vs "remain closed". What I believe has been proposed up to this point is limited relaxation of shut down orders. However, the debate seems to be: "He is an idiot to open things back up" vs "The economy has to get back to normal". Look at the actual businesses and the regulations and see if individually those relaxations make sense or not, instead of some macro-level discussion about ideas:

Bowling alleys: If they are limited to 20% capacity, that would mean one of every five lanes open. That is plenty of space between groups. Are the alleys going to sanitize the balls, seats, tables, and controls every time a group leaves? Are they going to require face coverings while in the facility?

Salons: Hair, nail, and massage places bring up a lot of questions that I am not qualified to address, but seem concerning. A tanning salon has a built in sanitizer. If workers sanitize the room between clients and don't allow clients to wait in the waiting area, it seems like pretty low probability of spreading infection to me.

Theaters: I don't think the movie theaters are going to open in any case. Probably most live theaters won't open for political reasons. I think this is very unlikely to be an issue because of lack of the businesses reopening.

Restaurants: If strict controls are in place on capacity, distancing, and sanitizing, I don't know what the probability of spread is. For myself, I am quite comfortable eating at home.

In different states, there are things that could be open, and should have been open: Self serve storage facilities, beaches with distancing limitations and understanding of lack of lifeguards, garden center sections of already open stores.

We should be asking whether a person entering a self serve storage facility increases risk of disease. We should be asking if opening a nail salon is wise or if it carries risk of spread of disease. Instead we are arguing about what an idiot this politician is, or what a controlling fascist this other politician is.

There is literally no point in opening a bowling alley with those restrictions, which likely means bowling alleys will open and ignore them for the most part.

 

[takethepoints]

I don't know if he has made them clear or not. I didn't watch his press conference, and I haven't looked at the state's website. What I do know is that not one single news story or report that I have seen has detailed them. It isn't the responsibility of journalists to publicize for the government, but it is their responsibility to inform the public. How much "news" currently is about information, and how much is about sowing controversy? It isn't a conservative vs. liberal situation. There is enough "news" from both sides that is constant bickering without any information.

The side-vs-side statement was more about "open" vs "remain closed". What I believe has been proposed up to this point is limited relaxation of shut down orders. However, the debate seems to be: "He is an idiot to open things back up" vs "The economy has to get back to normal". Look at the actual businesses and the regulations and see if individually those relaxations make sense or not, instead of some macro-level discussion about ideas:

Bowling alleys: If they are limited to 20% capacity, that would mean one of every five lanes open. That is plenty of space between groups. Are the alleys going to sanitize the balls, seats, tables, and controls every time a group leaves? Are they going to require face coverings while in the facility?

Salons: Hair, nail, and massage places bring up a lot of questions that I am not qualified to address, but seem concerning. A tanning salon has a built in sanitizer. If workers sanitize the room between clients and don't allow clients to wait in the waiting area, it seems like pretty low probability of spreading infection to me.

Theaters: I don't think the movie theaters are going to open in any case. Probably most live theaters won't open for political reasons. I think this is very unlikely to be an issue because of lack of the businesses reopening.

Restaurants: If strict controls are in place on capacity, distancing, and sanitizing, I don't know what the probability of spread is. For myself, I am quite comfortable eating at home.

In different states, there are things that could be open, and should have been open: Self serve storage facilities, beaches with distancing limitations and understanding of lack of lifeguards, garden center sections of already open stores.

We should be asking whether a person entering a self serve storage facility increases risk of disease. We should be asking if opening a nail salon is wise or if it carries risk of spread of disease. Instead we are arguing about what an idiot this politician is, or what a controlling fascist this other politician is.

Well, yes to a lot of this. It is true that news shows are pretty polarizing these days, but, shoot, Walter Cronkite was polarizing in his day. There's a basic catechism on this: journalists prefer conflict to cooperation, decay to progress, and people to policy. They always have and every politician worth his salt knows it. That's why if a government wants to make itself clear it has to be specific and direct; make the policies the story. Ours wasn't and didn't.

As to your list, I agree with the concerns expressed in every detail. The two that really concern me are salons and restaurants. People go to these at least in part to socialize and relax in company. That is the very last thing we need people to do now.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Neither one of them is happy to be in unemployment. It is what it is. And yes, there are supposed to be things to protect them, but as you said, what if they rule that their job is doing enough to make it safe? I use the example used in The Last Dance on Sunday, if someone gave you a bottle of 10 pills and 9 will heal you, but one will kill you, do you take one? I don’t believe people should be in the position where, if the government feels they are safe, they are forced to do something that, based on their health, health officials wouldn’t recommend.

What if I want to go to work but you don’t? Why should you get your way and I don’t? Why can’t we both choose and you can chose to stay at home where you feel safe and I can go to work where I feel it’s not a big enough threat for me to worry about?

This is fundamentally what’s playing out here. You got those who like to control (and boy do they love it) trying to control those who don’t like being controlled (and boy do we hate it), plus a bunch of sheep in the middle that will go whatever way they think they’re being told.

I advocate not telling anyone to go to work or not go to work. Let people choose. I know I can decide for myself. If you need government’s help to decide what to do, well seek government’s guidance and leave me alone. If the sheep want to follow you, fine. If they tag along behind me that’s ok too. They’re sheep and they won’t decide for themselves anyway.

 

[684Bee]

The difference is before February you were unlikely to contract a disease that could potentially kill you and certainly could give you the worst illness you've ever had in your life.
This constant talk of it not being that bad, only the old and sick die, is not particularly true. 55% of hospitalizations are people under 65. with 45% of them being under 55 (15% are under 30).
It's not just old and high risk people getting seriously ill.

This current re-opening plan reeks of ready, shoot, aim management plan. Not a well thought out plan to maximize our ability to get as much a return to normal as possible.
The opening of bowling alleys and movie theaters make absolutely 0 sense.

Setting aside how lethal C19 is or isn't, my larger point is simply that none of us knew what that barber or massage therapist had prior to all this. For all we knew, they could've had something worse than C19.

Take precautions. Be smart about how you do things. But for goodness sake, what are we going to do - continue on in perpetuity treating our neighbors like they have leprosy?

 

[takethepoints]

Because of the contagious factor being so high on a relative basis= many more deaths vs flu. OFs also want haircuts! :>)

Trim it yourself or go all 60s and let it stop by itself. I'm going the second route myself. Like:

 

[RonJohn]

There is literally no point in opening a bowling alley with those restrictions, which likely means bowling alleys will open and ignore them for the most part.

Why is there no point? Some income is better than none. In my experience bowling alleys are usually only busy on weekends and during league hours. I used to bowl in a league. If we went on a Tuesday afternoon to practice a few hours before league started, there were far fewer than 1 out of 5 lanes in use.

Also, to highlight my point about the banter hurting things. With some people arguing that under no circumstances should bowling alleys be allowed to open, even if there are restrictions that limit possible infections, other people are going to overstep the restrictions to demonstrate against the people who argue that nothing should be allowed. Both sides have lost perspective about what the goal is and are simply arguing.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Why is there no point? Some income is better than none. In my experience bowling alleys are usually only busy on weekends and during league hours. I used to bowl in a league. If we went on a Tuesday afternoon to practice a few hours before league started, there were far fewer than 1 out of 5 lanes in use.

Also, to highlight my point about the banter hurting things. With some people arguing that under no circumstances should bowling alleys be allowed to open, even if there are restrictions that limit possible infections, other people are going to overstep the restrictions to demonstrate against the people who argue that nothing should be allowed. Both sides have lost perspective about what the goal is and are simply arguing.

There are all kinds of comments to be made here about the danger of transmitting diseases when you touch other people's balls, but its probably best to not go too far into that gutter.

 

[RamblinRed]

Lindsey Graham's responses on GA re-opening plans.

 

[takethepoints]

What if I want to go to work but you don’t? Why should you get your way and I don’t? Why can’t we both choose and you can chose to stay at home where you feel safe and I can go to work where I feel it’s not a big enough threat for me to worry about?

This is fundamentally what’s playing out here. You got those who like to control (and boy do they love it) trying to control those who don’t like being controlled (and boy do we hate it), plus a bunch of sheep in the middle that will go whatever way they think they’re being told.

I advocate not telling anyone to go to work or not go to work. Let people choose. I know I can decide for myself. If you need government’s help to decide what to do, well seek government’s guidance and leave me alone. If the sheep want to follow you, fine. If they tag along behind me that’s ok too. They’re sheep and they won’t decide for themselves anyway.

Now, hold it. Since when do your rights, however construed, include the actions that can and do cause harm to others? That has always been the limit: your rights extend only as far as the harm they can cause to others. If you choose to expose yourself to a virus that can cause both serious assaults to health (you can check) or death if you transmit it to others when a change in your routines will avoid it, you have no ethical choice but to accept the change. This is especially the case if there is a social provision to accommodate you.

 

[Pointer]

I am looking at the facts, and they seem to be pointing to this virus having a mortality rate pretty much in line with a bad flu (I know that will get some people's dander up using that word), and that's with having a flu vaccine. Again, this is fluid, so that could change. IF that stays the case, though, then why is the decision to get a haircut or a massage viewed as that much riskier?

There's a flu vaccine, there's not yet a c19 vaccine. That's why we are where we are right now. Your points would be completely valid if there was a vaccine, but there is not hence the lock down.

 

[RamblinRed]

Setting aside how lethal C19 is or isn't, my larger point is simply that none of us knew what that barber or massage therapist had prior to all this. For all we knew, they could've had something worse than C19.

Take precautions. Be smart about how you do things. But for goodness sake, what are we going to do - continue on in perpetuity treating our neighbors like they have leprosy?

of course not. I never said stay in place into perpetuity or treat neighbors like they have leprosy.
But it is not too much to ask to be smart about it and to do it when you are actually meeting the guidelines for re-opening - which GA is nowhere close to meeting today.

Gov Kemp is taking a gamble. If it goes well, then we have a possible way out. If it doesn't we end up back in this horrible situation we are in now which i'd really like to avoid having to do a second time.

It doesn't make me feel great that Gov Kemp didn't consult or tell the GA coronavirus task force of his decision before the Press Conference yesterday.

 

[684Bee]

There's a flu vaccine, there's not yet a c19 vaccine. That's why we are where we are right now. Your points would be completely valid if there was a vaccine, but there is not hence the lock down.

Two things:

Yes, there is a flu vaccine. Yet it still killed 60,000 people in a recent year.

When we do have a C19 vaccine, it won't be a magic bullet. There are some who believe that C19 has mutations and different strains.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Sadly, today is going to be another huge day of new cases in the US. We’re already over 30,000 new cases today, and it’s only 1 PM on the West Coast.

 

[684Bee]

Sadly, today is going to be another huge day of new cases in the US. We’re already over 30,000 new cases today, and it’s only 1 PM on the West Coast.

Is there any data that shows how many of these require hospitalization?