Conference Realignment

WreckinGT

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No it's not. It's like FSU and every other ACC member agreeing they should go to an island, and once there, they will all donate their boats to be used for wood to build a big hut. Now FSU sees that the SEC and BIG have managed to build bigger huts on their islands, so FSU wants its wood back to sail over to join them.

No you can't have your wood back, the hut is already built. But you can start swimming, and maybe you won't drown.
There is no attempt to swim here. The option for FSU in that case is stay in the ACC or shut down your athletic department. That isn't really a choice. That also makes the GOR a document not just for media rights but for holding all members hostage. No one can leave. The exit fees are pointless because teams cant leave anyways due to not being able to generate revenue. I don't think that would ever hold up legally.
 

Towaliga

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All I know is that if FSU loses this and I was in charge of the ACC scheduling going forward, what I would do to FSU’s football schedule would make what the ACC did to GT during the CPJ days look like a walk in the park. It would go something like: Saturday night game, Thursday night game, Saturday noon game, Saturday noon game, Saturday night game, Thursday night game. And of course, every ACC opponent would have a bye week the week before while FSU would only get byes before their OOC opponent.
:)
 

RonJohn

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We are speaking about the claim made by FSU that the media rights agreement with ESPN will expire in 2027 unless ESPN exercises their unilateral right to extend it. You seem to be convinced that FSU made this up or completely twisted something else. I think "lies" or "made this up" fit pretty well here. Either that or you are asserting that FSU's general council is horribly incompetent and can't read a contract and thinks they read something that never existed. That one seems unlikely.

What we know is FSU made the assertion that they did. ESPN and the ACC notified them of exposing confidential information. The ACC quoted their statement about the rights expiration in their amended complaint and blacked out what FSU actually said, while accusing them of exposing trade secrets. I'm not sure which part of that sequence has led you to believe there is no truth to the original assertion. Frankly, your extreme dislike of FSU appears to be clouding your judgement here.
I have no extreme dislike of FSU. I am not sure what is clouding your interpretation of things. Lawyers frequently describe things with a heavy slant towards their client. I don't know that the lawyers involved in the lawsuit have actually seen the ESPN contract. They might be relying simply on what someone from FSU told them. They didn't provide any actual evidence of that so that people can determine for themselves if FSU's characterization is accurate or not. FSU also states that the "exit fee" is $572 million, which is not factual. They were able to combine some things that are not actual "exit fee" and make the claim that the "exit fee" is that number. It is not a "lie", it is a mischaracterization. They can make that claim, which they have. It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It is entirely possible that the same is true about the "ESPN option". It might impact the ESPN contract in some way, but not totally wipe it out. You can make such a claim and argue the point, even if it turns out to not be true. If both sides in every lawsuit agree to the facts, the characterizations, and the law, there would never be a lawsuit.

We know that FSU made an assertion, and that they disclosed confidential information. We do not know that their characterization of that information is accurate. I don't think that either ESPN nor the ACC will give out their interpretation of the contract, because it is confidential. I think FSU knows that the actual details won't be made public, so their interpretation will be all that is in the public. FSU is simply trying to make things as difficult as possible for the ACC and for ESPN. Which goes back to my statements earlier about where they want to get to. Will ESPN be happy to pay them more money to be in the SEC, when they know that FSU throws fits and discloses confidential information when they are unhappy? Will the Big10 media partners have zero concerns about entering into confidential contracts that FSU has access to disclose as soon as they are unhappy about something? I think @Augusta_Jacket is probably correct in his assessment that FSU believed that that ACC would just roll over, and now they are stuck in a hard place.
 

awbuzz

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FSU cannot go to another conference without their media rights. Even the Sun Belt wouldn't accept them. The ACC either has to allow them to reclaim their rights in some way or block them from leaving the conference. You would say this isn't true?
... I'm pretty sure they can leave if they choose to do so. They just have to pay the buy out, and give up media rights. The question is would another conference take them in without having their media rights?
 

RonJohn

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There is no attempt to swim here. The option for FSU in that case is stay in the ACC or shut down your athletic department. That isn't really a choice. That also makes the GOR a document not just for media rights but for holding all members hostage. No one can leave. The exit fees are pointless because teams cant leave anyways due to not being able to generate revenue. I don't think that would ever hold up legally.
Except the FSU BOT said that this was the impact of the GOR when they willingly signed it.
 

awbuzz

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All I know is that if FSU loses this and I was in charge of the ACC scheduling going forward, what I would do to FSU’s football schedule would make what the ACC did to GT during the CPJ days look like a walk in the park. It would go something like: Saturday night game, Thursday night game, Saturday noon game, Saturday noon game, Saturday night game, Thursday night game. And of course, every ACC opponent would have a bye week the week before while FSU would only get byes before their OOC opponent.
:)
Of course, unofficially 😉
 

Augusta_Jacket

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There is no attempt to swim here. The option for FSU in that case is stay in the ACC or shut down your athletic department. That isn't really a choice. That also makes the GOR a document not just for media rights but for holding all members hostage. No one can leave. The exit fees are pointless because teams cant leave anyways due to not being able to generate revenue. I don't think that would ever hold up legally.

Probably a good thing you didn't choose a career in law then, as it absolutely has held up legally and will continue to hold up legally.
 

WreckinGT

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... I'm pretty sure they can leave if they choose to do so. They just have to pay the buy out, and give up media rights. The question is would another conference take them in without having their media rights?
That is basically the point. No conference would take them. They can't go independent because they would generate no media revenue at all. There is no actual way to leave the ACC and continue existing.
 

WreckinGT

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Probably a good thing you didn't choose a career in law then, as it absolutely has held up legally and will continue to hold up legally.
Can you give some examples from your career as a lawyer. I would love to hear them. Also, why in your opinion did the Big 12 agree to allow Texas and Oklahoma to buy out the rest of their rights? Why did FSU even bother putting an estimate for media rights in their complaint?
 

yeti92

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There is no attempt to swim here. The option for FSU in that case is stay in the ACC or shut down your athletic department. That isn't really a choice. That also makes the GOR a document not just for media rights but for holding all members hostage. No one can leave. The exit fees are pointless because teams cant leave anyways due to not being able to generate revenue. I don't think that would ever hold up legally.
They are not required to shut down their athletic department. There are plenty of athletic departments across the country that don't have any significant media rights deal, if a deal at all. FSU can solicit donations, they can ask for payment like so many other teams do, they can have fundraisers. they can raise ticket prices, sell more merch, take out a loan, etc. Media rights is not the only source of money. I would be willing to bet FSU can get more money just in alumni donations than most G5 schools get total including whatever media rights deals they have, so this claim that they would have to shut down the athletic department holds zero water.
 

CEB

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There is no attempt to swim here. The option for FSU in that case is stay in the ACC or shut down your athletic department. That isn't really a choice. That also makes the GOR a document not just for media rights but for holding all members hostage. No one can leave. The exit fees are pointless because teams cant leave anyways due to not being able to generate revenue. I don't think that would ever hold up legally.
You’re right about that… FSU is not confident enough in their position to attempt to “swim.”
They also aren’t faced with shutting down their athletic department either. They are one of the top revenue producing programs in college sports despite their membership in the lowly ACC. $30m annually is not an “all or nothing” for them… that is just them wanting to increase their revenue by about 20%.
The GOR is exactly what you jokingly say it can’t be. It is designed specifically to do exactly what you say it shouldn’t… hold members “hostage.” It has been that all along and all 15 members as well as the ACC knew that going in.
Will it hold up legally? Who knows… but someone will have to challenge it to find out, and it appears to be formidable enough that no one has had the guts to try.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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Can you give some examples from your career as a lawyer. I would love to hear them. Also, why in your opinion did the Big 12 agree to allow Texas and Oklahoma to buy out the rest of their rights? Why did FSU even bother putting an estimate for media rights in their complaint?

You don't have to have a career in law to know what cases hold up. Copywrite law, which is what this is, has been held up for decades. I am no lawyer but I know that laws are held up all the time. Also, see my post above that. I spoke with two lawyers and asked them about this. Both are huge SEC football fans. Both said FSU has little to no chance of winning in court. Every argument you present is based on emotion, not facts of the law.
 

WreckinGT

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They are not required to shut down their athletic department. There are plenty of athletic departments across the country that don't have any significant media rights deal, if a deal at all. FSU can solicit donations, they can ask for payment like so many other teams do, they can have fundraisers. they can raise ticket prices, sell more merch, take out a loan, etc. Media rights is not the only source of money. I would be willing to bet FSU can get more money just in alumni donations than most G5 schools get total including whatever media rights deals they have, so this claim that they would have to shut down the athletic department holds zero water.
Sell tickets for what games? If they can't join another conference then putting a schedule together is going to be difficult. Raising ticket prices and playing Ball St in a non televised game isn't really a solution. Good luck getting donations in the same type of environment. They simply wouldn't be able to do business anymore.
 

WreckinGT

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You don't have to have a career in law to know what cases hold up. Copywrite law, which is what this is, has been held up for decades. I am no lawyer but I know that laws are held up all the time. Also, see my post above that. I spoke with two lawyers and asked them about this. Both are huge SEC football fans. Both said FSU has little to no chance of winning in court. Every argument you present is based on emotion, not facts of the law.
So you can't give examples nor can you answer the other questions?
 

orientalnc

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Here is my take on the ESPN option.

The ACC signed a 12-year TV deal with ESPN in 2010. In 2013 the ACC members, reacting from the departure of Maryland agreed to the GOR they all signed. In 2016, ESSPN agree to launch the ACC Network beginning in 2019. At the same time, ESPN agree to extend the TV deal to 2036 conditioned on the ACC extending the GOR to 2036. It has been my understanding, based on my neighbor's contact with the UNC AA, that the TV deal is not part of the option, which is only about the ACC Network.

Think about the SEC deal as compared to the ACC deal. If ESPN dumps what is now relatively cheap broadcast rights and fills those slots with relatively expensive SEC games, they will be losing revenue compared to the ACC. Or, they could fill those slots with G5 games. It just doesn't make sense. Also, while the ACCN might not be the brightest star in the sky, it's an easy parking place for ACC games that will not have huge ratings.

I have no 1st hand info, but I think the deal with ESPN is good for them and the ACC. We'll see.
 

slugboy

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Looks like
  1. The ACC might want to hire the author as a lawyer
  2. G5 teams might have an interesting complaint against P4/P2 schools for an antitrust case
  3. It’s the first time that I’ve seen someone say “well, what about refunding the financial gains from previous years if you want out?”. The ACC gave a lot of benefits to FSU when they were terrible. They want out now, that they’re good again.
  4. All together, it looks like a reasonable overview of part of the case
  5. Swofford and Raycom are an avenue if FSU can establish fraud or deception, but that’s a long trek from where they are now
It seems like fans who want to jump conferences and think they have a “buyer” think more of FSU’s case. I hope I’m not wearing gold colored glasses when I doubt their case

I think, with a favorable and not all that competent judge, FSU can win the first round. Maybe they’re gambling on that outcome to strengthen their negotiating position.

They seem committed to getting out. My suspicion is that it won’t be at a discounted price. I think they’ll pay for the lawyers then pay pretty close to full price. I wonder if the ACC will dock them for legal fees as well
 

yeti92

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Sell tickets for what games? If they can't join another conference then putting a schedule together is going to be difficult. Raising ticket prices and playing Ball St in a non televised game isn't really a solution. Good luck getting donations in the same type of environment. They simply wouldn't be able to do business anymore.
You are aware there are teams that are not members of any conference right? And somehow, some way, they manage to put together a schedule year after year... heck, FSU has been independent before and was for a long time, so they should have a little past knowledge of how to figure out scheduling without a conference's help.

Just because things become more difficult does not make them impossible, but I'm sure that won't stop you from continuing to argue this terribly weak argument.
 

gameface

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Can you give some examples from your career as a lawyer. I would love to hear them. Also, why in your opinion did the Big 12 agree to allow Texas and Oklahoma to buy out the rest of their rights? Why did FSU even bother putting an estimate for media rights in their complaint?
The big difference in the B12/Texas and Oklahoma is the TV deal had only two years left and the schools bought out the rights for the last year. For a very large fee.
 

slugboy

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We are speaking about the claim made by FSU that the media rights agreement with ESPN will expire in 2027 unless ESPN exercises their unilateral right to extend it. You seem to be convinced that FSU made this up or completely twisted something else. I think "lies" or "made this up" fit pretty well here. Either that or you are asserting that FSU's general council is horribly incompetent and can't read a contract and thinks they read something that never existed. That one seems unlikely.

What we know is FSU made the assertion that they did. ESPN and the ACC notified them of exposing confidential information. The ACC quoted their statement about the rights expiration in their amended complaint and blacked out what FSU actually said, while accusing them of exposing trade secrets. I'm not sure which part of that sequence has led you to believe there is no truth to the original assertion. Frankly, your extreme dislike of FSU appears to be clouding your judgement here.

So, based on that premise, ESPN has the rights of first refusal for continuing carriage of the ACC Network after 2027. Presumably, there’s a deadline to renew.

If they don’t renew , then the ACC can take that package to another network—CBS, NBC, FOX, Apple, Amazon Prime, CW, Netflix, or a combination of those or other broadcasters. They might even get more revenue.
 

WreckinGT

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So, based on that premise, ESPN has the rights of first refusal for continuing carriage of the ACC Network after 2027. Presumably, there’s a deadline to renew.

If they don’t renew , then the ACC can take that package to another network—CBS, NBC, FOX, Apple, Amazon Prime, CW, Netflix, or a combination of those or other broadcasters. They might even get more revenue.
There is nothing in the FSU legal complaint that insinuates the upcoming ESPN option is for continuation of the ACC network. They are pretty clearly saying is is for ACC media rights in total.
 
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