Conference Realignment

RamblinRed

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
5,862
I think the odds of ESPN not exercising the option is extremely small.
ACC provides more content to ESPN than any other conference. If they were to not exercise the option they would have to find some way to fill all that content. Having the SEC and a partial piece of the B12 will not be enough.
 

CEB

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,610
I think the odds of ESPN not exercising the option is extremely small.
ACC provides more content to ESPN than any other conference. If they were to not exercise the option they would have to find some way to fill all that content. Having the SEC and a partial piece of the B12 will not be enough.
So the option is real? I have not seen confirmation or denial…

I agree that ESPN likely exercises.
And I suspect that while the terms are better for the ACC than current terms, they are probably still short of SEC / BIG terms (therefore lucrative for ESPN, but not favorable for ACC teams that believe they would find a home elsewhere). That said, I find it odd that FSU would not “out them” as further evidence of falling behind.

I really think all of the lawsuits are designed to have the appearance of conflict / turmoil while ESPN is making this decision. I don’t see LEGAL merit to them.
 

rfjeff9

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
445
I think the odds of ESPN not exercising the option is extremely small.
ACC provides more content to ESPN than any other conference. If they were to not exercise the option they would have to find some way to fill all that content. Having the SEC and a partial piece of the B12 will not be enough.
This is my take.

With the bang for their buck, ACC has been a cash cow for ESPN. They are making money on our deal, not losing money. With the previously disclosed state of ESPN finances, I don't see a way for them NOT to extend if they want to remain viable.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,911
Location
Oriental, NC
My UNC neighbor & I both read the Cal posts linked by @RamblinRed and had a nice discussion on his deck (almost 60 degrees & sunny here yesterday). The GOR and exit penalty are the only thing FSU seems to be challenging and his AA contact confirmed this. The ACC and its member schools agreed to keep the terms of the ESPN agreement quiet. To accomplish this, the members agreed to not retain a copy of the agreement. The ACC office has the only copy (ESPN has one of course) in possession of the conference. Remember, the individual schools are not a direct party to the agreement. The ACC is charging FSU with revealing contents of that "confidential" agreement which they agreed to not reveal.

The AA in Chapel Hill seems to pretty much agree with the Cal writer. My neighbor is not a practicing lawyer, but has a UNC law degree. His opinion has been, from the start, that FSU doesn't have much chance to win the case. He is unclear what the ACC is wanting from FSU other than to shut up and be a good conference member.
 

RamblinRed

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
5,862
I don't see the ACC as a dead conference walking.
I don't see it as a Top 2 conference now or in the future. It hasn't been that for a decade and the way the college environment changed it was unlikely to ever be that.
ACC is likely to survive partially due to ND. Say the worst scenario for the ACC happens and 6-7 teams ultimately leave. That still leaves 9-10 teams plus ND. ND has no intention of joining a conference and with the new CFP structure has even less incentive to ever do so. It needs a place to have all its other sports and the ACC is the best fit for it - so it would likely stay with the ACC even with some of its biggest brands leaving. The issue then would be do the ACC and B12 stay as independent conferences or do they form one.

I don't see FSU as likely prevailing in a lawsuit. Their lawsuit barely even mentions any legal statutes - I think 2 are mentioned over 6 counts. Mostly its a bunch of word soup.
FSU is hoping that it can get out without crippling debt and hope that 1 of the P2 want it bad enough to give them a full share. There are alot of assumptions in there that may not pan out.
Note I read an article where both FOX and ESPN are rooting for ACC in this matter. They negotiate with conferences - if GoR's are determined to be legally unenforceable then it makes it more difficult for them as they would not know who is going to be in the media contract year to year.

2019 was the last time the ACC had a team good enough to be in the CFP. FSU would have been in it this year if Travis didn't get hurt.

It feels like long term we are moving to a 2 league power structure. The FOX league and the ESPN league. If that happens GT is likely one of the last in or first out of those leagues.

FSU, instead of constantly bad mouthing the ACC - which it has done for years, could have been working to make it stronger. Note, when FSU was really mediocre it wasn't complaining, only in the last 2 years as it has performed better.
 

RamblinRed

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
5,862
My UNC neighbor & I both read the Cal posts linked by @RamblinRed and had a nice discussion on his deck (almost 60 degrees & sunny here yesterday). The GOR and exit penalty are the only thing FSU seems to be challenging and his AA contact confirmed this. The ACC and its member schools agreed to keep the terms of the ESPN agreement quiet. To accomplish this, the members agreed to not retain a copy of the agreement. The ACC office has the only copy (ESPN has one of course) in possession of the conference. Remember, the individual schools are not a direct party to the agreement. The ACC is charging FSU with revealing contents of that "confidential" agreement which they agreed to not reveal.

The AA in Chapel Hill seems to pretty much agree with the Cal writer. My neighbor is not a practicing lawyer, but has a UNC law degree. His opinion has been, from the start, that FSU doesn't have much chance to win the case. He is unclear what the ACC is wanting from FSU other than to shut up and be a good conference member.
I think ACC would like one of 2 things.
Either start working to make the conference better or live up to the contract you signed and pay to leave.

If FSU actually performs the way it runs its mouth it would start earning close to what the SEC and B1G payouts are with the new incentive structure.
 

CEB

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,610
Yes. And an excellent post. I think you are spot on with the conclusions.
IMG_5847.gif
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,793
Minor point, I know, but is there any chance at all that the ACC is chastened by this conference dirty laundry fight with FSU and becomes more proactive in the future protecting the interests of member schools?

I know I’m a broken record on this but the SEC proclaimed themselves the best conference decades before they became dominant. This fake it till you make it may have been obnoxious at the time but it worked. The ACC brand has never been promoted like that and now the brand no longer even works and each school is kind of on their own to make something out of it.
 

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,159
I think the odds of ESPN not exercising the option is extremely small.
ACC provides more content to ESPN than any other conference. If they were to not exercise the option they would have to find some way to fill all that content. Having the SEC and a partial piece of the B12 will not be enough.
Why not take the option in 2021 when they were supposed to then? Why convince the ACC commissioner to kick the can down the road? There is some play by ESPN here. Whatever it is. They may ultimately renew. They may also let it expire and bid on it again later at a lesser rate after multiple teams leave the conference.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,337
Last I checked, the ACC won the head to head with the SEC this season.

Since 2000, Tech is…
4-0 vs. Vandy
3-0 vs. Miss State
2-0 vs. Auburn
1-0 vs. Kentucky
0-1 vs. Tennessee
0-2 vs. LSU
0-3 vs. Ole Miss

4-19 vs. UGag

So we’re 10-6 against the SEC apart from the UGag game. Counting them we’re 14-25, with at least 5 of those games being in significant dispute or 1-score gamea.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,793
Last I checked, the ACC won the head to head with the SEC this season.

Since 2000, Tech is…
4-0 vs. Vandy
3-0 vs. Miss State
2-0 vs. Auburn
1-0 vs. Kentucky
0-1 vs. Tennessee
0-2 vs. LSU
0-3 vs. Ole Miss

4-19 vs. UGag

So we’re 10-6 against the SEC apart from the UGag game. Counting them we’re 14-25, with at least 5 of those games being in significant dispute or 1-score gamea.
Yet the entire SEC has always gotten to claim their superiority off the strength of one or two dominant teams.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,995
One thing that has been lost in this (maybe I just lost it?) is the notion that ESPN has a contract thru ‘27 and an OPTION to exercise thru ‘36.
That’s the biggest bombshell in all of this, IMO, and I have seen it floated once in the FSU complaint and nothing about it again. No refuting it by ACC or ESPN and no one talking about it. Did I miss it?

Two things to consider with that:
1. If the ACC is as weak as some believe it is, there is no way ESPN would exercise the option regardless of anything else. I’m not sure that’s the case, but we’re going to find out soon if the FSU complaint is correct.
2. Options have all terms defined.. You can refuse the option and then negotiate, but you don’t negotiate the option and nothing in the option is left to finalize at a later date. It’s “take it or leave it,” typically. That’s where it gets interesting…
- FSU laid out ‘28-‘36 as unknown because the option, by nature, is not guaranteed. But I suspect the terms ARE known and Potentially the terms are more favorable to the ACC than the current deal. If they weren’t, FSU likely would’ve used them as further evidence that the deal is bad. (ie; even if ESPN exercised the option, look how bad the terms are)
- Regardless of what the terms are, if ESPN money is tight, they won’t exercise the option. It has to be lucrative (duh). Just because the option terms may be favorable to ACC, doesn’t mean they are guaranteed since ESPN doesn’t HAVE to exercise.
- Finally, regardless of the option terms, if an option actually does exist, and a decision on the option has to be made in ‘25 (both alleged in FSU complaint), and FSU really wants out… a massive legal battle raging at option decision time might be nothing more than FSU trying to put a finger on the scale with regard to ESPNs decision.

Conclusion: here’s what I think is happening and where I think this is going.
- Option terms are good for ACC but probably still short of BIG / SEC numbers.
- FSU doesn’t care and wants out regardless.
- FSU also believes ESPN will not exercise the option and wants to guarantee it by further muddying the waters with lawsuits and unrest ongoing at decision time. They don’t need a legal win, just a raging conflict, get it?
- Once ESPN refuses the option, FSU is going to argue that the contract is over and the GOR is done. It seems the GOR agreement does suggest that its existence is to fulfill the ESPN contract obligations.
- ACC will argue that the GOR term is 2036 and that they have the right to continued negotiation with ESPN even if the original contract option is refused. IF we get here, candidly, this looks like a weak argument for the ACC. I would expect FSU to get real traction here, so if ESPN refuses the option, lookout.

Caveat to the Conclusion:
Is this freaking option real?!?
That’s back to my original question. It was like a fart in the wind… floated and disappeared. Weird, but maybe the ACC has a real interest in it disappearing from public view.
IF THE OPTION IS REAL, it’s the biggest factor in the whole darned thing because ESPN has the ability to end all of the legal battling with their decision (regardless of their decision), and that decision will come before the lawsuits will work out.
Option refused - ACC will likely have swift and major restructuring.
Option exercised - GOR stands, ACC stands, discussion turns to what happens post-2036.
I'm sure ESPN isn't happy that FSU is releasing information from the contract that is under an NDA with everyone involved. It goes to my question earlier about where FSU could possibly end up, even if they win this lawsuit and can leave at no cost. ESPN isn't happy. Will Fox welcome someone who releases NDA information? Will the SEC or Big10? They are throwing a tantrum, and that doesn't set you up well to make friends in the future.

Another thing to consider is that FSU's characterization of the option might not be accurate. The contract is under an NDA, so ESPN won't reveal what the details actually are, nor will the ACC. It might "feel" like they just can't respond, but that doesn't mean that FSU is describing the contract correctly. FSU knows that neither ESPN nor the ACC will "correct" any mischaracterization of their breaking the NDA, so they can characterize it any way they want to. Is there an "option"? It seems apparent that there is. Is it a "unilateral" option to "walk away" from the contract entirely? That is just FSU's lawyer's description of that the contract says. What if it is an option to extend only the ACCN portion of the contract? That could fit in with the words that FSU filed, but it wouldn't fit in with the interpretation that everyone got from it.

I know I sound like a broken record with my skeptical scrutiny of information sources and scrutiny of the actual words that people use, but in this case people are responding to their understanding of FSU's spin on the matter. Many people are only responding to twitter posts about the twitter person's understanding of FSU's spin on the matter. Without seeing the actual ACC-ESPN contract, we probably won't actually know what it says. FSU knows that, and they know that if they release partial information and their spin of that information that it will cause issues with the public, and outrage from their fans. Once again, will the Big10 or SEC invite someone to the conference who has that as their standard operating procedure?
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,793
I'm sure ESPN isn't happy that FSU is releasing information from the contract that is under an NDA with everyone involved. It goes to my question earlier about where FSU could possibly end up, even if they win this lawsuit and can leave at no cost. ESPN isn't happy. Will Fox welcome someone who releases NDA information? Will the SEC or Big10? They are throwing a tantrum, and that doesn't set you up well to make friends in the future.

Another thing to consider is that FSU's characterization of the option might not be accurate. The contract is under an NDA, so ESPN won't reveal what the details actually are, nor will the ACC. It might "feel" like they just can't respond, but that doesn't mean that FSU is describing the contract correctly. FSU knows that neither ESPN nor the ACC will "correct" any mischaracterization of their breaking the NDA, so they can characterize it any way they want to. Is there an "option"? It seems apparent that there is. Is it a "unilateral" option to "walk away" from the contract entirely? That is just FSU's lawyer's description of that the contract says. What if it is an option to extend only the ACCN portion of the contract? That could fit in with the words that FSU filed, but it wouldn't fit in with the interpretation that everyone got from it.

I know I sound like a broken record with my skeptical scrutiny of information sources and scrutiny of the actual words that people use, but in this case people are responding to their understanding of FSU's spin on the matter. Many people are only responding to twitter posts about the twitter person's understanding of FSU's spin on the matter. Without seeing the actual ACC-ESPN contract, we probably won't actually know what it says. FSU knows that, and they know that if they release partial information and their spin of that information that it will cause issues with the public, and outrage from their fans. Once again, will the Big10 or SEC invite someone to the conference who has that as their standard operating procedure?
I guess my question is whether we think FSU is just going off half-cocked. Are they just being petulant? I have no idea what their endgame is. But it’s hard to believe a major university with all their resources hasn’t done extensive legal planning with so much at stake. One would think this would be a pretty high level chess match rather than just mud slinging.

None of what they are doing makes sense but one wonders what is really going on behind the scenes.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,995
I guess my question is whether we think FSU is just going off half-cocked. Are they just being petulant? I have no idea what their endgame is. But it’s hard to believe a major university with all their resources hasn’t done extensive legal planning with so much at stake. One would think this would be a pretty high level chess match rather than just mud slinging.

None of what they are doing makes sense but one wonders what is really going on behind the scenes.
You would think. However:
  • Did you watch the FSU BOT meeting in August? It was a real life Zoom version of Twitter rants. It wasn't a business meeting of professional people working towards a goal. It was like a group of fan-boy commentators frothing at the mouth.
  • Do you remember that the FSU BOT looked to a private capital company to borrow $500 million plus to pay the exit fees and purchase their GOR back? I think they finally realized that getting $50 million more per year several years from now isn't worth an immediate $500 million payment, especially with interest attached to it. Wouldn't a seasoned business person understand that before going through all of the numbers?
I think the FSU BOT appears to be very half-cocked. They are acting like a toddler. They know what they want, just like a toddler knows he wants the toy on the high shelf. Some toddlers ask their parents and accept it when their parents say no. Other toddlers stand in the middle of the aisle blocking it and cry until their parent gives in and buys it for them. Which one is the FSU BOT acting like?
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,236
The ACC contract is one of ESPN's most profitable assets. I don't see them letting that go unless somehow moving pieces (i.e. schools in the ACC) to another conference (hello SEC!) gives them an equal or better return. Let's all be clear here: ESPN is not a friendly partner to the ACC. In fact, with their huge partnership with the SEC, and with the ACC region crossing over with the SEC, the long term outlook of the ACC's partnership looks tenuous at best. I think ESPN would be VERY happy to move some ACC pieces to the SEC and getting rid of schools like Duke, Wake Forest, GT, NC State, etc...similar to what happened with schools from the PAC 12 moving to the Big 12. With the NFL looking to buy a part of ESPN, expect ESPN/NFL to invest even more into the SEC. The NFL is in the football business...what's the SEC known for?

FSU isn't making a big stink for no reason. They have a dancing partner on the other side. It's no secret the B1G wants to be in the South...they've been trying for decades. GT/UNC/UVA were all targets in 2012, and the three schools probably would have been in the B1G already had GT not turned it down. GT was the key school...if Atlanta goes, the ACC's contract isn't as lucrative, and therefore from a economic standpoint, UNC and UVA would have made a business decision. B1G won't talk about FSU in the open, due to opening them up to tortious interference claims, and FSU is probably under a strict NDA (that's the reason why no one involved will openly talk about GT turning the B1G down, but multiple national writers have written about it). FSU also knows the payout that B1G schools are close to getting and wants out of the ACC to cash those B1G/FOX checks. FSU is going about this in a dumb and juvenile way, but they're not stupid enough to open themselves to lawsuits if they know there's not a willing (and more lucrative) partner on the other end.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,911
Location
Oriental, NC
I guess my question is whether we think FSU is just going off half-cocked. Are they just being petulant? I have no idea what their endgame is. But it’s hard to believe a major university with all their resources hasn’t done extensive legal planning with so much at stake. One would think this would be a pretty high level chess match rather than just mud slinging.

None of what they are doing makes sense but one wonders what is really going on behind the scenes.
I have wondered the same. Is it simply a rant aimed at appeasing the FSU donor base? I know they want to blame someone else for not having quality backup QBs with actually playing time. But this whole thing seems off more than a little.
 

CEB

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,610
You would think. However:
  • Did you watch the FSU BOT meeting in August? It was a real life Zoom version of Twitter rants. It wasn't a business meeting of professional people working towards a goal. It was like a group of fan-boy commentators frothing at the mouth.
  • Do you remember that the FSU BOT looked to a private capital company to borrow $500 million plus to pay the exit fees and purchase their GOR back? I think they finally realized that getting $50 million more per year several years from now isn't worth an immediate $500 million payment, especially with interest attached to it. Wouldn't a seasoned business person understand that before going through all of the numbers?
I think the FSU BOT appears to be very half-cocked. They are acting like a toddler. They know what they want, just like a toddler knows he wants the toy on the high shelf. Some toddlers ask their parents and accept it when their parents say no. Other toddlers stand in the middle of the aisle blocking it and cry until their parent gives in and buys it for them. Which one is the FSU BOT acting like?
I agree with your last two posts and it’s certainly fair to be skeptical of the information. It runs the gamut from cryptic to ludicrous with sprinklings of fact.

I don’t think there are any teeth to FSU allegations / complaint. I do think it’s a tantrum, pretty much. They can’t act on it and can’t really defend it. That’s why I think it is designed to muddy the option decision ESPN has to make.
Since FSU wants out, they want to make the decision for ESPN as uncomfortable as possible. I suspect the goal is sabotage and the legal filings are just the means of sabotaging.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,995
... FSU is probably under a strict NDA .....
NDAs don't appear to be an issue with FSU releasing information. I highly doubt that the Big10 and FSU have been in any serious talks. FSU thinks they are a very big shot, but I think it is highly likely that the Big10 would prefer to have Miami over FSU, and not by just a small margin.
 

Roswellgoldmember

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
98
The ACC contract is one of ESPN's most profitable assets. I don't see them letting that go unless somehow moving pieces (i.e. schools in the ACC) to another conference (hello SEC!) gives them an equal or better return. Let's all be clear here: ESPN is not a friendly partner to the ACC. In fact, with their huge partnership with the SEC, and with the ACC region crossing over with the SEC, the long term outlook of the ACC's partnership looks tenuous at best. I think ESPN would be VERY happy to move some ACC pieces to the SEC and getting rid of schools like Duke, Wake Forest, GT, NC State, etc...similar to what happened with schools from the PAC 12 moving to the Big 12. With the NFL looking to buy a part of ESPN, expect ESPN/NFL to invest even more into the SEC. The NFL is in the football business...what's the SEC known for?

FSU isn't making a big stink for no reason. They have a dancing partner on the other side. It's no secret the B1G wants to be in the South...they've been trying for decades. GT/UNC/UVA were all targets in 2012, and the three schools probably would have been in the B1G already had GT not turned it down. GT was the key school...if Atlanta goes, the ACC's contract isn't as lucrative, and therefore from a economic standpoint, UNC and UVA would have made a business decision. B1G won't talk about FSU in the open, due to opening them up to tortious interference claims, and FSU is probably under a strict NDA (that's the reason why no one involved will openly talk about GT turning the B1G down, but multiple national writers have written about it). FSU also knows the payout that B1G schools are close to getting and wants out of the ACC to cash those B1G/FOX checks. FSU is going about this in a dumb and juvenile way, but they're not stupid enough to open themselves to lawsuits if they know there's not a willing (and more lucrative) partner on the other end.
The assumption is that they are doing something rational but it's possible that they aren't. It's likely a handful of individuals making these decisions. GT left the SEC and turned down the BIG, were either of those decision rational, much less some kind of 3D chess? No, they were ****ty, shortsighted decisions made by a handful of individuals.
 
Top