Conference Realignment

[GSOJacket]

She was referring to all the yankees who went to school there.

I think she must have confused it with UNC's next door neighbor, Dook.

 

[bigrabbit]

Yeah. Someone inform me how gt has the money to afford buying its way out of the acc; and since we know we don’t have it, who would flip the bill? The new conf? I wouldn’t think they would at the numbers they would be looking at….but maybe. Seems all implausible fiscally.

The basic principle is that the GOR, spread over 10 years for example, would be swamped by the additional annual media revenue from being in a super conference. Not arguing for it btw, just explaining plausibility.

Would love to hear the conversations between TS and president Cabrera. GT admin has historically not cared about sports, probably ok staying in the smaller ACC pond. I imagine Cabrera views this all as a big headache.

Several B1G and SEC programs aren’t actually very good. Will the final stage of this process involve thinning the herd? Kick out the weaklings?

 

[gameface]

I think she must have confused it with UNC's next door neighbor, Dook.

No she went to school there four years.

 

[slugboy]

The basic principle is that the GOR, spread over 10 years for example, would be swamped by the additional annual media revenue from being in a super conference. Not arguing for it btw, just explaining plausibility.

Think of it this way

• The ACC is like a homeowners association
• The teams are like the families that live in the neighborhood
• The GOR is that all the families signed over the title to their properties to the home owners association (HOA).
• The HOA pays investment income back to the families

As the properties become more valuable, how does the HOA get swamped?
If another HOA pays more, how does a family take the property they don’t own to join another HOA?

 

[RonJohn]

The basic principle is that the GOR, spread over 10 years for example, would be swamped by the additional annual media revenue from being in a super conference. Not arguing for it btw, just explaining plausibility.

The GOR it that the ACC owns all of the media revenue from an ACC school that leaves the ACC. If Ohio State plays a game in Atlanta, the ACC would own the media rights and it would be broadcast as an ACC game. The Big10 would get nothing from it. The big issue is that there is zero incentive for another conference to pull an ACC team out. It will not increase the revenue of the new conference, so it doesn't make sense to pay media rights to that former ACC team.

IF the GOR didn't exist and it was only a buyout, then you are correct that the buyout would be dwarfed by the extra revenue over time. However, the Grant of Rights is in addition to a buyout. The GOR means that ACC teams bring no additional revenue to a new conference, so are not an appealing addition.

 

[GSOJacket]

No she went to school there four years.

I don't think most North Carolinians (of which I am one) would confuse UNC with a yankee magnet school.

 

[g0lftime]

I don't think most North Carolinians (of which I am one) would confuse UNC with a yankee magnet school.

I live less than 10 miles from Duke and UNC. Duke is called the " New York Day Care Center" by a lot of locals. You can also substitute New Jersey for New York.

 

[gameface]

I don't think most North Carolinians (of which I am one) would confuse UNC with a yankee magnet school.

One thing both you and her have in common is your pride in UNC.

 

[stech81]

The GOR it that the ACC owns all of the media revenue from an ACC school that leaves the ACC. If Ohio State plays a game in Atlanta, the ACC would own the media rights and it would be broadcast as an ACC game. The Big10 would get nothing from it. The big issue is that there is zero incentive for another conference to pull an ACC team out. It will not increase the revenue of the new conference, so it doesn't make sense to pay media rights to that former ACC team.

IF the GOR didn't exist and it was only a buyout, then you are correct that the buyout would be dwarfed by the extra revenue over time. However, the Grant of Rights is in addition to a buyout. The GOR means that ACC teams bring no additional revenue to a new conference, so are not an appealing addition.

I have a dumb question, I know it won't happen but lets say the Big 10 does invite us. With the GOR being a problem. When they draw up the schedule lets say we play Ohio State and are the home team. If the conference agrees even with Ohio State being the home team they say we are going to play this home game at Tech or MBS . would this be a way out? I know the Big 10 would not do it for us but could for Clemson or another team.

 

[BilldGopher]

Bigrabbit said: "Several B1G and SEC programs aren’t actually very good. Will the final stage of this process involve thinning the herd? Kick out the weaklings?"

There's already clickbait out there speculating just this point.

And yes, like all conferences record-wise in the B1G there's the Blue Bloods (Ohio State, Michigan), the sustained-stable programs (Iowa, Wisconsin, PSU(?), programs knocking at the door (Gophers in this bunch, Northwestern any given year, Purdue), and current struggling (Nebraska, Illinois, Indiana, Rutgers, Maryland). Different folks might quibble with the middle but this is about the current break-down.

Hard to imagine even with the dynamics that appear in play that member programs since the inception of the B1G have to worry.

Based on recent performance ironically Nebraska is to a degree a market outlier and on paper would be a more likely a candidate than Rutgers or even Maryland. I have Huskers family on Mrs. Billd's side and I'm willing to bet as they watch this unfold they are feeling better about the move to the B1G than maybe before. Ironically, they expected to dominate the Big 10 West and they have been getting their butts kicked regularly. They do in the end fit in the B1G pretty well, just like PSU, and Minnesota and Iowa both have historic rivalries because of proximity.

Guessing the same for the SEC but I admit I'm not fully sure of their long game. The B1G apparently is not going to let geography trump some other factors. I think that was the biggest surprise to me with the addition of USC and UCLA...literally the conference now spans the continent.

Happy Independence Day!

 

[gtphd]

PAC and Big XII are in discussion to basically merge. How does the ACC survive?

 

[THWG]

PAC and Big XII are in discussion to basically merge. How does the ACC survive?

We get Notre Dame and try to either get West Virginia or Oklahoma State to make 16.

 

[forensicbuzz]

PAC and Big XII are in discussion to basically merge. How does the ACC survive?

ACC is as strong as the combination of what's left of the B12 and the Pac12

 

[slugboy]

I have a dumb question, I know it won't happen but lets say the Big 10 does invite us. With the GOR being a problem. When they draw up the schedule lets say we play Ohio State and are the home team. If the conference agrees even with Ohio State being the home team they say we are going to play this home game at Tech or MBS . would this be a way out? I know the Big 10 would not do it for us but could for Clemson or another team.

No schools have tried it. Either they don’t think it’s worth it, or they don’t think they’d win the lawsuit.
An AD at at a top money making program thinks they’re the smartest one in the room. If you want out, you keep asking winning lawyers if they can break the contract until you find one that says “yes, I can win this”. If FSU or Miami lawyers thought they could win, we’d have probably heard rumblings at the OU-TX announcement.
If a bunch of people on a message board can come up with a crazy strategy to get out of a contract , why wouldn’t a lawyer think through their odds with the same strategy? We’ve had about a decade for any team to try and escape GOR. Either everyone is risk-averse, or it’s not that simple.

ETA: here’s a longer write up (paywalled, but I read the whole thing). Andy Staples talks to lawyers who’ve examined the contracts:

Staples: How would a school challenge a grant of rights? We asked a lawyer (who happens to have ACC, Big 12, Pac-12 copies)

There are four ways to challenge such a deal. Most of them involve a lot of money and patience.

theathletic.com

 

[davesbrain]

Several B1G and SEC programs aren’t actually very good. Will the final stage of this process involve thinning the herd? Kick out the weaklings?

In these new 'super conferences', somebody's got to do the losing..

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I still find it hilarious that we still have posters who believe the GOR will stop this train. These are probably the same guys who kept saying we would never have a playoff.

But, but, but the Akron Daily Beacon should have a say in who is the National Champion…..

But, but, but, there’s a contract….

 

[RonJohn]

I have a dumb question, I know it won't happen but lets say the Big 10 does invite us. With the GOR being a problem. When they draw up the schedule lets say we play Ohio State and are the home team. If the conference agrees even with Ohio State being the home team they say we are going to play this home game at Tech or MBS . would this be a way out? I know the Big 10 would not do it for us but could for Clemson or another team.

I haven't seen the text of the current GOR, so I can't answer for certain. Also, I am not a lawyer so my answer would be from a layman. I did find text of the last GOR. It states:

1. Grant of Rights. Each of the Member Institutions hereby (a) irrevocably and
exclusively grants to the Conference during the Term (as defined below) all rights (the "Rights")
necessary for the Conference to perform the contractual obligations of the Conference expressly
set forth in the ESPN Agreement, regardless of whether such Member Institution remains a
member of the Conference during the entirety of the Term and (b) agrees to satisfy and perform
all contractual obligations of a Member Institution during the Term that are expressly set forth in
the ESPN Agreement. The grant of Rights pursuant to this paragraph 1 includes, without
limitation, (A) the right to produce and distribute all events of such Member Institution that are
subject to the ESPN Agreement; (B) subject to paragraph 7 hereof, the right to authorize access
to such Member Institution's facilities for the purposes set forth in and pursuant to the ESPN
Agreement; (C}the·right·ofthe·Conference or its designeeto ·create and to own ·a -copyright of
the audiovisual work of the ESPN Games (as defined in the ESPN Agreement) of or involving
such Member Institution (the "Works") with such rights being, at least, coextensive with 17
U.S.C. 411(c); and (D). the present assignment of the entire right, title and interest in the Works
that are created under the ESPN Agreement.

So the text of what games would be included in this agreement (home-away-neutral) appears to be from the ESPN-ACC agreement. You would need the text of that agreement to fully understand what that is and if there are any workarounds. I highly suspect that they were fully aware that schools could attempt to make every game a neutral or an away game and have language that prevents that as a workaround.

Also of note, the language states that the conference owns the copyright of all of the athletics media. It appears that if a school leaves, the ACC could prevent them from using media of athletics events in coaches shows or advertisements. Image only being able to use pictures from away games or photoshopped pictures or your own stadium in advertisements. (Although photoshopped pictures of BDS would probably be better than actual pictures from recent years.)

 

[RonJohn]

I still find it hilarious that we still have posters who believe the GOR will stop this train. These are probably the same guys who kept saying we would never have a playoff.

But, but, but the Akron Daily Beacon should have a say in who is the National Champion…..

But, but, but, there’s a contract….

There is no contract that says an ACC team can't leave. Nobody is arguing that we can't break a contract.

The big issue with GOR is that if a team does leave, they do not add to the media rights of the new conference. Why would the SEC invite Miami, FSU, or Clemson if the remaining teams in the ACC get all of the money for all of the media for games that Miami, FSU, and Clemson produce? Why would the SEC pay money to Miami, FSU, or Clemson if those schools provide zero additional revenue to the SEC?

There might be ways out of the GOR, but it is a lot more complicated than just bolstering statements on the Internet.

 

[Techster]

No one is getting kicked out of the SEC or B1G regardless of how putrid their programs are at the moment. The B1G especially will not abandon members. Of all the "big" conferences, the B1G actually conducts themselves with a sense of decency and code of ethics. Besides, you can't have a conference full of elite teams...there needs to be cannon fodder for the rich to pad their record. It also is counterintuitive to the whole purpose of the next phase of expansion: National level conference and media deals.

Anyone who thinks USC and UCLA reached out to B1G and not the other way around...well, let's just say I have beachfront property in Topeka Kansas to sell you. USC and UCLA have been livid about the leadership of the PAC12 for years now due to the bad media contract. They thought their last conference commissioner was going to lead them to contracts equivalent to what B1G and SEC were getting. USC and UCLA rumors have been going on for a while now and I mentioned it in another thread a few months back. As soon and Texas and Oklahoma went to the SEC, everyone in the media looked out west at USC and UCLA making the next jump, and the B1G has always been in the driver's seat for it. There have been "back channel" talks with conferences and marquess programs going on for a while now.

On to GT being left out. GT is already struggling to maintain our status as a P5 team. We already made a strategic error years ago by turning the B1G down (decades after Dodd's Folly), and if we turn them down again for fear of "not being able to compete with the more well funded (and well managed) programs", well we're going to deserve everything that happens. If we get left out of the SEC and B1G conference, you can pretty much say goodbye to GT being relevant again. We're paying on debt for P5 facilities, what happens when GT and whatever reminents of the ACC and some other conference can't command the same TV contract anymore? Do you think donors will be as willing to pony up money to fund a GA Southern/GA State/Middle Tennessee level program? Do you think anyone outside of GT alumni will even care to come to games or support the team? We're definitely not going to attract good coaches or recruits. We're already getting bare minimum support from sidewalk fans, imagine how much harder it'll be outside of the "Big 2" conferences. Do some of you believe once the marquee programs in the ACC jump to the B1G and SEC the remaining programs will be able to ask for a same amount of media money?

Bottom line, GT is heading into uncharted territory. I'm not old enough to remember GT wandering the wilderness after we left the SEC and before joining the ACC, but GT's athletic program was almost destroyed. A lot of us are GT fans because of the national championship in 1990, the SEC wars/SEC titles when we were an SEC member, ACC titles in football and basketball, Final Four runs, ACC Championship games, high level athletes (Kenny Anderson, Calvin Johnson, Joe Hamilton, Stephon Marburn, Jarrett Jack, Chris Bosh,etc). What happens when all of that is gone? Look no further than GA State. People already hate coming to GT because of parking and location downtown. Imagine trudging yourself and your family into Atlanta without the benefit of seeing a Clemson/UGA/FSU/UNC/Duke/etc. Instead you get some former FCS or D2 team. GT will be become a team other teams pay to travel to them on opening day or homecoming. Yes, some of us will continue to do so because we love GT and we've been fans forever, but once the national conference start taking affect, and GT is out in the cold, our numbers will dwindle drastically as time goes on.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

There is no contract that says an ACC team can't leave. Nobody is arguing that we can't break a contract.

The big issue with GOR is that if a team does leave, they do not add to the media rights of the new conference. Why would the SEC invite Miami, FSU, or Clemson if the remaining teams in the ACC get all of the money for all of the media for games that Miami, FSU, and Clemson produce? Why would the SEC pay money to Miami, FSU, or Clemson if those schools provide zero additional revenue to the SEC?

There might be ways out of the GOR, but it is a lot more complicated than just bolstering statements on the Internet.

I know all this. And I’m not making bolstering statements on the internet. I know it’s complicated. I’m simply saying there is zero chance the GOR holds the ACC together until 2036. None. The GOR was created by people due to a monetary incentive. These same people will undo the GOR once given another monetary incentive. That’s how everything in the world works.

You keep bringing up minor details like media rights and coaches shows, etc. We all get that these are part of the GOR as of today. But the GOR won’t exist in its current form once the shuffle gets to ACC teams. And the shuffle will come to the ACC well before 2036. It’s only 2022. I have no inside info but the past tells us what the future holds. The SEC getting Texas/OU was complicated yet they got it done in silence. The BIG taking California was complicated but done in silence. Right now, I have no doubt that a lot of things are happening in silence. With Phillips ties to the BIG I wouldn’t be shocked if he helps in the ending of the GOR and ends up with a cushy BIG job once UNC and others end up there with others going to SEC.