Conference Realignment

RamblinRed

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
5,901

New CFP to be approved tomorrow.
14 teams - format will be decided later (no agreement yet on any auto bids, etc). But agreement on 14 teams allows them to get the extension with ESPN.
B1G and SEC both get 29% of revenue
ACC gets 17% ($13-14M per team)
B12 gets 15%
G5 gets 9% (may not be divided equally among te G5 conferences)
Independents get 1% with ND expected to get most of that - roughly $12M.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,903
I thought Arizona, Arizona ST, Utah, and Colorado jumped over from the P12. Add them to Baylor, TCU, TX Tech, OSU, UK, KSU, Iowa ST, BYU, WVU and UCF and you have 14 good programs. None of them great, but most all of them good to very good. Some top 10 at times. They’re not folding anytime soon. Nor is the ACC. It’s a very similar situation.
 

CEB

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,777

New CFP to be approved tomorrow.
14 teams - format will be decided later (no agreement yet on any auto bids, etc). But agreement on 14 teams allows them to get the extension with ESPN.
B1G and SEC both get 29% of revenue
ACC gets 17% ($13-14M per team)
B12 gets 15%
G5 gets 9% (may not be divided equally among te G5 conferences)
Independents get 1% with ND expected to get most of that - roughly $12M.
Why is ACC getting more than B12?

B12 is AWWWWWESOME!
IMG_6600.gif
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,760
I thought Arizona, Arizona ST, Utah, and Colorado jumped over from the P12. Add them to Baylor, TCU, TX Tech, OSU, UK, KSU, Iowa ST, BYU, WVU and UCF and you have 14 good programs. None of them great, but most all of them good to very good. Some top 10 at times. They’re not folding anytime soon. Nor is the ACC. It’s a very similar situation.
Advertizers notice there are not many viewers near the non texas teams

Also in Texas the acc has one ok team and sec has 2 good teams to compete with the 3 big 12 teams (who have been average at best) . Also big 12 has a small recruiting base.

To few people over 2 many miles to have real upside

Gt is located in Square A1.

Just need to show some fire in the alumni base. .

M
 

Techwood Relict

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,505
I don't think anyone believes that the Big10 and SEC can be "stopped". I just think that the ACC isn't as weak as many seem to believe. It was the public opinion that the ACC was going to be the first P5 conference to fold, yet it is the number three conference at the moment instead of the first to fold. The Big12 lost their first tier of teams. How many members of the Big12 were G5 teams 10 years ago? If you had listed their members as a conference 10 years ago, everyone would have believed that they were a G5 conference.

I think there is going to be a huge shift in FBS football in the next few years. I think it is highly possible that before the next round of "conference realignment" there is an entire realignment of FBS football. That is part of the reason that I question FSU's lawsuit. IF half of FBS is moved to a "professional" division and half is moved to an "academic" division, then there will be issues to work through with conference affiliations and GORs. Those issues will be probably be worked through in a more civil manner. FSU is setting themselves up as a team that everyone wants in the "professional" division, but nobody wants in their circle. i.e. Everyone wants them in the "professional" division, but nobody wants them in their conference or whatever the setup is.
Seems like a reasonable forecast. fsu will still be easy to hate on no matter how the lawsuit turns out
 

stinger 1957

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,523
I don't think anyone believes that the Big10 and SEC can be "stopped". I just think that the ACC isn't as weak as many seem to believe. It was the public opinion that the ACC was going to be the first P5 conference to fold, yet it is the number three conference at the moment instead of the first to fold. The Big12 lost their first tier of teams. How many members of the Big12 were G5 teams 10 years ago? If you had listed their members as a conference 10 years ago, everyone would have believed that they were a G5 conference.

I think there is going to be a huge shift in FBS football in the next few years. I think it is highly possible that before the next round of "conference realignment" there is an entire realignment of FBS football. That is part of the reason that I question FSU's lawsuit. IF half of FBS is moved to a "professional" division and half is moved to an "academic" division, then there will be issues to work through with conference affiliations and GORs. Those issues will be probably be worked through in a more civil manner. FSU is setting themselves up as a team that everyone wants in the "professional" division, but nobody wants in their circle. i.e. Everyone wants them in the "professional" division, but nobody wants them in their conference or whatever the setup is.
I don't agree or disagree with your Professional and academic divisions because I've just not seen anything either way, you may know something I don't know which ain't hard to do 'cause there's a lot I don't know! I don't think the ACC is on an equal basis with it's FB programs with the SEC or Big 10 but not far behind either. Just think the money thing will make the ACC farther behind over time, thus in my mind the inevitability that it folds, maybe the remnants that don't end up in SEC or Big 10 could end up in an academic type conference as you mention.
IMO the only reason the ACC is still standing is because the SEC and Big10 decided to pull the bricks out of the bottom of the PAC 12 and Big 12 before they come east and that may be because of the GOR and it was better to go the easier route of Big12 and PAC12 first and in effect that weakens the ACC enough that it will fall. What we're talking about is money underlying all of what is and going to happen. People may not like that but that is real world life and it ain't going to change in the forseeable future IMO. If FSU brings additional revenue to a particular conference FSU will have a home there if they want, don't at this time know which conference that might be, could be all three of SEC, BIG, Big12, understanding that Big12 at present is less money than ACC, not sure ACC remains that way '27 forward. We'll see what happens.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,044
I don't agree or disagree with your Professional and academic divisions because I've just not seen anything either way, you may know something I don't know which ain't hard to do 'cause there's a lot I don't know! I don't think the ACC is on an equal basis with it's FB programs with the SEC or Big 10 but not far behind either. Just think the money thing will make the ACC farther behind over time, thus in my mind the inevitability that it folds, maybe the remnants that don't end up in SEC or Big 10 could end up in an academic type conference as you mention.
IMO the only reason the ACC is still standing is because the SEC and Big10 decided to pull the bricks out of the bottom of the PAC 12 and Big 12 before they come east and that may be because of the GOR and it was better to go the easier route of Big12 and PAC12 first and in effect that weakens the ACC enough that it will fall. What we're talking about is money underlying all of what is and going to happen. People may not like that but that is real world life and it ain't going to change in the forseeable future IMO. If FSU brings additional revenue to a particular conference FSU will have a home there if they want, don't at this time know which conference that might be, could be all three of SEC, BIG, Big12, understanding that Big12 at present is less money than ACC, not sure ACC remains that way '27 forward. We'll see what happens.
It wasn't described this way by the NCAA president, but in December he described splitting up FBS into two subdivisions. One of those would be allowed to pay players directly. I think the talk is some kind of attempt to stall or stop lawsuits and such.


Texas and Oklahoma moving to the SEC was definitely because of GOR issues. The Big12 GOR that those teams were under expires next year. They originally announced they were leaving upon expiration of the GOR, but later negotiated a buyout of the rights for next year. I think it is work noting that Texas has much, much more money than FSU regardless of conference media money. Even though they had much more money, they were waiting until the GOR expired before leaving. They didn't challenge it.

The PAC12 fell because their media contract was ending and they couldn't find an acceptable media contract. They reportedly turned down a $30 million per year per team offer from ESPN and demanded $50 million. After ESPN walked away the best offer the got was from Apple for $23-25 million per year. USC and UCLA, much like Texas and Oklahoma are moving after the GOR expires. When the rest of the confernce couldn't get more than $25 million per year, there was a mass exodus for the Big12, then the ACC.

If the Big12 GOR had been longer, Texas and Oklahoma would still be in the Big12. If the Pac12 GOR had been longer, all of those teams would still be in the PAC12. The current ACC media contract and GOR (I assume GOR also) is longer than any other conference. We will see what happens with the FSU lawsuit, but I don't expect much to come out of it. If nothing comes of that lawsuit, then I expect that the ACC will remain whole until around 2030 or until there is a complete paradigm shift in Division 1 and FBS.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,035
Location
Oriental, NC
This guy makes the same mistake others have made when he confuses the GOR with the ACC media rights deal with ESPN. ESPN cannot make changes to the GOR. ESPN cannot move teams from one "bucket" to another. ESPN is not a party to the GOR. ESPN required the GOR extension (it was already in place) before extending the media deal out 2036 and launching the ACC Network.
 

stinger 1957

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,523
This guy makes the same mistake others have made when he confuses the GOR with the ACC media rights deal with ESPN. ESPN cannot make changes to the GOR. ESPN cannot move teams from one "bucket" to another. ESPN is not a party to the GOR. ESPN required the GOR extension (it was already in place) before extending the media deal out 2036 and launching the ACC Network.
I don't know a lot about it but looks to me if ESPN decides they don't want to extend their present deal then GOR is a mute question if there is not any TV revenue to fight over. The concern is $$$$$. The GOR was done I thought in conjunction with the ACC's deal with ESPN, maybe I'm missing something. Yes the conference and individual schools have to make the actual decisions but the pressure points come from the money. The money comes from ESPN, they hold all the cards because of that. It ain't that hard as I see it but then again maybe I'm missing something. I thought the GOR came right after the conference made their deal with ESPN, but i could be wrong about that, still it was definitely made during the same time period the deal was made with the conference and ESPN.
 

MountainBuzzMan

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,755
Location
South Forsyth
I don't know a lot about it but looks to me if ESPN decides they don't want to extend their present deal then GOR is a mute question if there is not any TV revenue to fight over. The concern is $$$$$. The GOR was done I thought in conjunction with the ACC's deal with ESPN, maybe I'm missing something. Yes the conference and individual schools have to make the actual decisions but the pressure points come from the money. The money comes from ESPN, they hold all the cards because of that. It ain't that hard as I see it but then again maybe I'm missing something. I thought the GOR came right after the conference made their deal with ESPN, but i could be wrong about that, still it was definitely made during the same time period the deal was made with the conference and ESPN.
Depending on how strong/weak the ACC looks between now and then, then it allows the ACC to put our media package out to bid.

I dont get how people cant figure this out. Especially since the ACC generates significant profit for ESPN.

There WILL be other bidders for our media package
 

stinger 1957

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,523
I thought Arizona, Arizona ST, Utah, and Colorado jumped over from the P12. Add them to Baylor, TCU, TX Tech, OSU, UK, KSU, Iowa ST, BYU, WVU and UCF and you have 14 good programs. None of them great, but most all of them good to very good. Some top 10 at times. They’re not folding anytime soon. Nor is the ACC. It’s a very similar situation.
There are 8 Big 12 schools that have good to great media mkts. Cincinnati, Houston, AZ St., Colorado, Baylor, TCU, Kansas, UCF
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,903
Depending on how strong/weak the ACC looks between now and then, then it allows the ACC to put our media package out to bid.

I dont get how people cant figure this out. Especially since the ACC generates significant profit for ESPN.

There WILL be other bidders for our media package
Yes. The ACC can make a
Lot of $$$ for whatever media company might cut that deal.
 

UgaBlows

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,998
Depending on how strong/weak the ACC looks between now and then, then it allows the ACC to put our media package out to bid.

I dont get how people cant figure this out. Especially since the ACC generates significant profit for ESPN.

There WILL be other bidders for our media package
Yeah it’ll about like the bidding war for the PAC rights- the ACC will splinter apart as the good teams make deals behind the scenes to leave while throwing monkey wrenches into the ACC negotiations
 

stinger 1957

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,523
You don’t think OK State has a good media market? How about K State? Ten good media markets can generate a healthy cask flow.
https://mymediajobs.com/market-rankings Ok City 47th, Tulsa 62nd and Lawrence is right there by KC which is 34th and KC seems to be a really good sports town. I did not see K St. being a part of that but possibly it is.

You decide about OSU. I never thought the sooners were chosen by the SEC because of their media mkt, it seems the SEC goes more after neighborhood rivalries and brand names whereas the Big ten certainly likes that it seems but their interest seems to be towards the size of your media mkt as well as draw. Some of what I just said comes from listening to people in charge in the Big 10 such as Pres of a school and some ADs. I think a Flagship school that draws from a collection of good media mkts is something the Big 10 would also like, such as UNC drawing from Raleigh-Durham, Greensboro High point and Charlotte, also OR probably draws eyes from multiple areas in Oregon I'm guessing although I don't know that for sure. For instance I could see the Big 10 might rather have the U of FL( already an AAU school ) rather than FSU because they represent the flagship school in FL along with having the Jax mkt. FSU draws from rural panhandle Fl, rural S. AL, rural S. Ga. Certainly FSU has a great CFB brand name but brand names come and go with how a program performs over time. I'm interested in watching AL with their new HC. They were a different looking brand prior to 2007. Just my thoughts.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,035
Location
Oriental, NC
https://mymediajobs.com/market-rankings Ok City 47th, Tulsa 62nd and Lawrence is right there by KC which is 34th and KC seems to be a really good sports town. I did not see K St. being a part of that but possibly it is.

You decide about OSU. I never thought the sooners were chosen by the SEC because of their media mkt, it seems the SEC goes more after neighborhood rivalries and brand names whereas the Big ten certainly likes that it seems but their interest seems to be towards the size of your media mkt as well as draw. Some of what I just said comes from listening to people in charge in the Big 10 such as Pres of a school and some ADs. I think a Flagship school that draws from a collection of good media mkts is something the Big 10 would also like, such as UNC drawing from Raleigh-Durham, Greensboro High point and Charlotte, also OR probably draws eyes from multiple areas in Oregon I'm guessing although I don't know that for sure. For instance I could see the Big 10 might rather have the U of FL( already an AAU school ) rather than FSU because they represent the flagship school in FL along with having the Jax mkt. FSU draws from rural panhandle Fl, rural S. AL, rural S. Ga. Certainly FSU has a great CFB brand name but brand names come and go with how a program performs over time. I'm interested in watching AL with their new HC. They were a different looking brand prior to 2007. Just my thoughts.
I have family members who graduated from FSU, UF, UCF and FIU. There are grads from all of those schools all over the state. Don't look at the local market for FSU and UF. That's not where the TV market is located. For Miami it's more local in S Florida. And UCF and USF are growing fans at a rapid rate, so they are gradually stealing eyeballs from FSU and UF.
 

RamblinRed

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
5,901
The SEC and B1G strategies are relatively easy to see.
SEC wants 'brand' names from contiguous states.
B1G prefers the large state public school, preferrably AAU, with major media markets.

I've seen charts that show ACC's revenue continue to outpace B12 revenues by increasing margins over the next decade. Of course those same charts also show B1G and SEC revenues continuing to outpace ACC revenues by increasing margins over the same timeframe.

I read an article last week (wish I could remember where) that ACC schools would receive $62M per team for their media contract at the end of its current term (2036).

UNC AD Cunningham had an interesting interview last week. He was very critical of FSU and said if what FSU says is true than they should have to pay even more to leave the conference. He also said their no vote on expansion was not necessarily a no to expansion. He said he felt if they were going to expand they should expand national, up to 21 teams and create regional divisions that would then play the championships. Felt it would be better for the SA's by reducing travel costs significantly (which would also help the budgets).

We'll see where everything stands after the judicial decisions. If the judicial system decides that the GOR is a binding document than FSU has almost no leverage. The GOR is between a conference and its members, the media content providers are not involved with that. Even if ESPN has the option to drop the ACC contract and chose to do so, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the GOR. Nowhere in the GOR does it say it ends if their is no media deal. At that point ACC would still own the media rights of its members and could look for a contract from non ESPN media interests.
FSU can leave the ACC anytime it wants, it just has to pay the exit fee. But it doesn't have its media rights so it has no value to any media content provider or network until it does.

Fans also continue to overstate the value of the properties. The market is pretty well set right now. A power conference program is worth about $30M in 2024. Might be worth alot more in the future, but have to wait and see on that.

I'm not as convinced as some that ESPN is out to destroy the ACC. They get alot of content from the ACC - particularly in FB and BB. Simply moving 2-4 teams to another conference ESPN has an agreement with is not going to fill all those broadcast slots.

With the way college athletics is moving it feels like the next break for it is going to be those that want to spend alot of money to pay athletes and those that don't.

I'm not convinced there is a ton of movement left for the Big 2. They are not going to want to expand in any way that would dilute their payouts.
I feel like the SEC may ultimately add 2-4 more teams. Given they have little desire to be a 'national' conference as stated by Sankey himself, they likely would like a school each from NC and VA (I expect UNC and UVA would be their first 2 choices, but they'd be ok with NC ST and VT). Maybe they look to add a 'brand' or 2 (that is where FSU and Clemson come in for me as a possibility).
For B1G, I expect they would like a Southern/Atlantic pod. I think UNC and UVA would be their top 2 choices. Then I think GT and Miami would probably be next in line. I think they would take Duke if it would get them UNC. They would like ND more than anything else, but I don't think ND joins a conference.

ND is going to want the ACC to survive as it needs a place for all its non-FB sports and it doesn't really want to join either the SEC or B1G or B12. ND doesn't see an academic fit with either SEC or B12 and it worries about joining the B1G because it is scared they will become to be seen as more of a private, regional school than a national university. They argued very hard for the inclusion of Stanford and Cal. They had their reasons for that.

Finally, talking about the upcoming court cases. There has been discussion on the board about the ESPN option and FSU's argument that ACC was not acting in its members fiduciary benefit. That could be very easy to dispel in court. If the ESPN option was something that was required to get the ACC Network, then the ACC was operating in its fiduciary responsibility because not to allow it would have cost each ACC school millions of dollars per year in lost revenue.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,125
I have family members who graduated from FSU, UF, UCF and FIU. There are grads from all of those schools all over the state. Don't look at the local market for FSU and UF. That's not where the TV market is located. For Miami it's more local in S Florida. And UCF and USF are growing fans at a rapid rate, so they are gradually stealing eyeballs from FSU and UF.
I believe you but how do you factor in generational support? Take U Fla for example. The Gainesville and surrounding markets are saturated with the adult children of multiple generations of gator fans and they are passing that DNA down across multiple generations . Those patterns are large, old and sustained and will not be overcome quickly.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,903
The SEC and B1G strategies are relatively easy to see.
SEC wants 'brand' names from contiguous states.
B1G prefers the large state public school, preferrably AAU, with major media markets.

I've seen charts that show ACC's revenue continue to outpace B12 revenues by increasing margins over the next decade. Of course those same charts also show B1G and SEC revenues continuing to outpace ACC revenues by increasing margins over the same timeframe.

I read an article last week (wish I could remember where) that ACC schools would receive $62M per team for their media contract at the end of its current term (2036).

UNC AD Cunningham had an interesting interview last week. He was very critical of FSU and said if what FSU says is true than they should have to pay even more to leave the conference. He also said their no vote on expansion was not necessarily a no to expansion. He said he felt if they were going to expand they should expand national, up to 21 teams and create regional divisions that would then play the championships. Felt it would be better for the SA's by reducing travel costs significantly (which would also help the budgets).

We'll see where everything stands after the judicial decisions. If the judicial system decides that the GOR is a binding document than FSU has almost no leverage. The GOR is between a conference and its members, the media content providers are not involved with that. Even if ESPN has the option to drop the ACC contract and chose to do so, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the GOR. Nowhere in the GOR does it say it ends if their is no media deal. At that point ACC would still own the media rights of its members and could look for a contract from non ESPN media interests.
FSU can leave the ACC anytime it wants, it just has to pay the exit fee. But it doesn't have its media rights so it has no value to any media content provider or network until it does.

Fans also continue to overstate the value of the properties. The market is pretty well set right now. A power conference program is worth about $30M in 2024. Might be worth alot more in the future, but have to wait and see on that.

I'm not as convinced as some that ESPN is out to destroy the ACC. They get alot of content from the ACC - particularly in FB and BB. Simply moving 2-4 teams to another conference ESPN has an agreement with is not going to fill all those broadcast slots.

With the way college athletics is moving it feels like the next break for it is going to be those that want to spend alot of money to pay athletes and those that don't.

I'm not convinced there is a ton of movement left for the Big 2. They are not going to want to expand in any way that would dilute their payouts.
I feel like the SEC may ultimately add 2-4 more teams. Given they have little desire to be a 'national' conference as stated by Sankey himself, they likely would like a school each from NC and VA (I expect UNC and UVA would be their first 2 choices, but they'd be ok with NC ST and VT). Maybe they look to add a 'brand' or 2 (that is where FSU and Clemson come in for me as a possibility).
For B1G, I expect they would like a Southern/Atlantic pod. I think UNC and UVA would be their top 2 choices. Then I think GT and Miami would probably be next in line. I think they would take Duke if it would get them UNC. They would like ND more than anything else, but I don't think ND joins a conference.

ND is going to want the ACC to survive as it needs a place for all its non-FB sports and it doesn't really want to join either the SEC or B1G or B12. ND doesn't see an academic fit with either SEC or B12 and it worries about joining the B1G because it is scared they will become to be seen as more of a private, regional school than a national university. They argued very hard for the inclusion of Stanford and Cal. They had their reasons for that.

Finally, talking about the upcoming court cases. There has been discussion on the board about the ESPN option and FSU's argument that ACC was not acting in its members fiduciary benefit. That could be very easy to dispel in court. If the ESPN option was something that was required to get the ACC Network, then the ACC was operating in its fiduciary responsibility because not to allow it would have cost each ACC school millions of dollars per year in lost revenue.
Very, very well put.
 
Top