College admissions and rankings

[orientalnc]

Better in what way? Does their student body reflect the diversity of the state population? Is the football program leveraging money to allow scholarships and grants to poor students who could not get in otherwise? There are lots of questions. More money and higher GPAs is not the measure of success.

I think you are allowing yourself to answer a different question than originally posed, and to which I was addressing my comment. But, I do not think their campus reflects the diversity of the state. Nor does the GT campus reflect Georgia's diversity. And, I do not know the $ amounts coming in at Bama or GT that were leveraged by football. I agree there are a number of ways to measure success.

The question was whether Bama stocking 5* RBs was fair and whether the NCAA should limit the number of elite athletes any single school could stockpile. My argument is that the NCAA is not going to do anything to limit which schools an athlete can apply to or attend. If an RB wants to choose Bama because is sister is a student there or that his sister is not, that should be OK with the NCAA and how many 5* running backs are already enrolled should not be a factor.

 

[forensicbuzz]

So you are against the ones who drop out. There were a lot of students who dropped out or flunked out back in the day at GT. Was GT wrong for accepting them? There always has been and always will be both students and athletes who attend college and don’t finish.

I think he's talking about those kids who exhaust their eligibility and at the end of their 4 or 5 years still have nothing to show for their time in college. Reading his words, it's implied that the kids not graduating are not being successful because they're not prepared to do anything after their eligibility has expired. It seems you're building a strawman from what he said.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I think you are allowing yourself to answer a different question than originally posed, and to which I was addressing my comment. But, I do not think their campus reflects the diversity of the state. Nor does the GT campus reflect Georgia's diversity. And, I do not know the $ amounts coming in at Bama or GT that were leveraged by football. I agree there are a number of ways to measure success.

The question was whether Bama stocking 5* RBs was fair and whether the NCAA should limit the number of elite athletes any single school could stockpile. My argument is that the NCAA is not going to do anything to limit which schools an athlete can apply to or attend. If an RB wants to choose Bama because is sister is a student there or that his sister is not, that should be OK with the NCAA and how many 5* running backs are already enrolled should not be a factor.

Ok, so let’s simply what the discussion is.

The NCAA already limits the number of schools MOST athletes can attend. The 25 scholarship cap per class and 85 scholarships per program definitely tells MOST athletes where they can and cannot go. This is done for no other reason than for the good of the sport, the good of academic institutions, so they don’t lose perspective, and to balance the playing field.

Let’s skip for now whether this is effective, disingenuous or whether it is a system that can be gamed.

If we accept the NCAA premise that capping programs is good for the game and good for institutions then I am baffled as to why a cap that keeps 4 or 5 teams from stockpiling talent is such an outrageous idea to explore. Dodd won this battle before, but, sadly, lost the war, as leaving the SEC was the price for being right.

I was hoping for a fulsome conversation about how this approach might work and might even save amateur sports but the strong backlash hasn’t allowed that conversation to even get started. Rather than discuss pros and cons most have just dismissed the idea that the NCAA ought to regulate amateur competition and seek to make it fair.

 

[orientalnc]

@Northeast Stinger

OK. I'll bite. You & I were debating different topics. So, here is something I think might work (I will agree to numbers adjustments, as these are swags).

Give every Division 1 football school a choice between three tier levels of scholarships. Would probably have to be on a conference basis.

Tier 1- 25 annual full scholarships and 75 total scholarship athletes. But, all 25 must be drafted based on a random drawing for draft order. Athletes in the draft pool have to agree to attend whichever university drafts them and commit to three full seasons without eligibility for transfer. Transfers cost receiving school one annual scholarship.
Tier 2- 20 annual full scholarships from athletes not in the draft pool and 10 half scholarships and 90 total scholarship athletes. The full scholarship athletes have to agree to three full years without transfer. Transfers cost receiving school one annual scholarship.
Tier 3- 15 annual full scholarships and 20 half scholarships and 105 total scholarship athletes. The full scholarship athletes have to agree to three full years without transfer. Transfers cost receiving school one annual scholarship.

In order to be eligible to transfer to any Tier 1 school and be eligible for financial aid, a player must be in the draft pool. Players not in the draft pool can choose any Tier 2 or 3 school that will accept them as a student athlete.

All full scholarship grants would be for four full years with an option for a fifth year.
Each of these choices has the same $ cost.

This is my first shot to continue the dialog I missed with your posts. This plan would almost completely eliminate redshirts and focus schools on getting players through college as quickly as possible. If a player becomes ineligible for any reason, his scholarship is frozen as if he were eligible.

Fire away.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Dodd won nothing on that front. He may have been 100% correct in his thinking but his plan to affect change was horrible and useless. We like the guy because he is a GT man, but he lacked vision. He could have made a difference if he stayed. By leaving GT and himself became an afterthought.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

@Northeast Stinger

OK. I'll bite. You & I were debating different topics. So, here is something I think might work (I will agree to numbers adjustments, as these are swags).

Give every Division 1 football school a choice between three tier levels of scholarships. Would probably have to be on a conference basis.

Tier 1- 25 annual full scholarships and 75 total scholarship athletes. But, all 25 must be drafted based on a random drawing for draft order. Athletes in the draft pool have to agree to attend whichever university drafts them and commit to three full seasons without eligibility for transfer. Transfers cost receiving school one annual scholarship.
Tier 2- 20 annual full scholarships from athletes not in the draft pool and 10 half scholarships and 90 total scholarship athletes. The full scholarship athletes have to agree to three full years without transfer. Transfers cost receiving school one annual scholarship.
Tier 3- 15 annual full scholarships and 20 half scholarships and 105 total scholarship athletes. The full scholarship athletes have to agree to three full years without transfer. Transfers cost receiving school one annual scholarship.

In order to be eligible to transfer to any Tier 1 school and be eligible for financial aid, a player must be in the draft pool. Players not in the draft pool can choose any Tier 2 or 3 school that will accept them as a student athlete.

All full scholarship grants would be for four full years with an option for a fifth year.
Each of these choices has the same $ cost.

This is my first shot to continue the dialog I missed with your posts. This plan would almost completely eliminate redshirts and focus schools on getting players through college as quickly as possible. If a player becomes ineligible for any reason, his scholarship is frozen as if he were eligible.

Fire away.

Nothing to fire away at.

I have several responses:

1. This is very creative.
2. I’m not sure my pea-brain understands it all.
3. The parts I do understand I am not sure of the implications.
4. What I was proposing was not this comprehensive and seemed to me a one-off solution.

Now my questions. How do students decide whether or not to be in a draft pool? What is the advantage of one tier over another? If you have to commit to three years at a school, yet their is a penalty for receiving a transfer, are we talking about seniors who transfer? What are the implications of say the SEC choosing to be tier 2 and the B1G choosing to be tier 1 and the ACC choosing to be tier 3 (as an example)?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Many of the SEC schools are ranked > 200 nationally. They just don’t give a **** about academics and just want good sports teams wide and deep.

 

[Root4GT]

I think he's talking about those kids who exhaust their eligibility and at the end of their 4 or 5 years still have nothing to show for their time in college. Reading his words, it's implied that the kids not graduating are not being successful because they're not prepared to do anything after their eligibility has expired. It seems you're building a strawman from what he said.

If that was his intent then sure I agree. As I read his words they were no where close to what you said. Expanding on that there are a lot of degrees that regular students go to college for that have little direct benefit in preparing them for the real world. At least a lot of athletes can become coaches

 

[forensicbuzz]

If that was his intent then sure I agree. As I read his words they were no where close to what you said. Expanding on that there are a lot of degrees that regular students go to college for that have little direct benefit in preparing them for the real world. At least a lot of athletes can become coaches

I think outside of a few specialized fields, college is about learning how to think and how to learn more than it is learning a specific trade. Engineering and accounting is as much about "how" to approach real-world problems as it is calculus and physics. Most college degrees are over-rated. Give me the kid who graduated with a liberal arts degree and knows how to think. I can send them to B-school or law school or med school or OJT to get what they need to be successful. There is a lot to be said for a liberal arts undergraduate education.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

If that was his intent then sure I agree. As I read his words they were no where close to what you said. Expanding on that there are a lot of degrees that regular students go to college for that have little direct benefit in preparing them for the real world. At least a lot of athletes can become coaches

That’s exactly what I meant. The Jan Kemp scandal at Georgia was essentially about 9 football players who helped Georgia win their last national championship but who were qualified to serve at Burger King after college, something they could have done out of high school. They got through uga on scholarships but lacked basic reading comprehension.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I think outside of a few specialized fields, college is about learning how to think and how to learn more than it is learning a specific trade. Engineering and accounting is as much about "how" to approach real-world problems as it is calculus and physics. Most college degrees are over-rated. Give me the kid who graduated with a liberal arts degree and knows how to think. I can send them to B-school or law school or med school or OJT to get what they need to be successful. There is a lot to be said for a liberal arts undergraduate education.

This was essentially the philosophy at Emory and, rightly or wrongly, why their charter forbids top division sports. Every student was encouraged to participate in sports at a more basic level, including drown proofing, get a solid background in history, English, psychology, basic math skills, etc, and go on to professions in medicine, law, public policy etc.

 

[Vespidae]

This was essentially the philosophy at Emory and, rightly or wrongly, why their charter forbids top division sports. Every student was encouraged to participate in sports at a more basic level, including drown proofing, get a solid background in history, English, psychology, basic math skills, etc, and go on to professions in medicine, law, public policy etc.

After Tech, I got my MBA at Emory. A wonderful experience and mentally challenging in a completely different way that GT. Emory encouraged sports and athletics but wasn't obsessed about it ... just another part of the whole person concept to be developed at university.

 

[orientalnc]

Now my questions. How do students decide whether or not to be in a draft pool? What is the advantage of one tier over another? If you have to commit to three years at a school, yet their is a penalty for receiving a transfer, are we talking about seniors who transfer? What are the implications of say the SEC choosing to be tier 2 and the B1G choosing to be tier 1 and the ACC choosing to be tier 3 (as an example)?

With this suggestion I assumed the P5 conferences would all jump into Tier 1. That gives them access to the best players if the best players want to be in Tier 1. I think the whole program collapses if not many players opt in for the draft pool. I wonder if the presence of GT and Stanford and Northwestern and ND might scare kids who are marginal students from entering the pool. They might be fine at Bama or uga or LSU, but lost at a STEM school. Big state universities can hide a student with marginal ability or interest and, at the same time, try to inspire that student in ways that flip him/her into their wiser self. Helping kids see themselves beyond their teen years is one of the purposes of college. If those kids are happy playing at App State or NIU we might see a surprise or two in the CFP.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Dodd won nothing on that front. He may have been 100% correct in his thinking but his plan to affect change was horrible and useless. We like the guy because he is a GT man, but he lacked vision. He could have made a difference if he stayed. By leaving GT and himself became an afterthought.

Correction. We like the guy because the whole football world liked the guy at the time. Paul Bryant said he was the best and most respected coach he ever faced. Even the Dallas Cowboys borrowed from him. No, loving Dodd was not just a Tech thing. He was known and appreciated throughout the country. And the SEC and, eventually the NCAA rules, were shamed into changes because of Dodd’s principled stand. It is only in hindsight that we see that he and Tech paid too big a price.

Football has evolved light years since then in ways no one could have seen coming. College football was more important than pro sports back in the day and now major college sports are essentially the farm team for the pros. I wish there was someone as principled as Dodd to come along now and straighten up the current mess.

 

[orientalnc]

I wish there was someone as principled as Dodd to come along now and straighten up the current mess.

I guess you are not referring to Dabo???

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I guess you are not referring to Dabo???

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Correction. We like the guy because the whole football world liked the guy at the time. Paul Bryant said he was the best and most respected coach he ever faced. Even the Dallas Cowboys borrowed from him. No, loving Dodd was not just a Tech thing. He was known and appreciated throughout the country. And the SEC and, eventually the NCAA rules, were shamed into changes because of Dodd’s principled stand. It is only in hindsight that we see that he and Tech paid too big a price.

Football has evolved light years since then in ways no one could have seen coming. College football was more important than pro sports back in the day and now major college sports are essentially the farm team for the pros. I wish there was someone as principled as Dodd to come along now and straighten up the current mess.

I hear you on Dodd. However, a lot of folks, myself 80% included, don’t see a “mess”. Things always change and with change some folks like it and see “a better future” and some see a “mess”. Would I like to see college players be actual students? Yes. But those days are NEVER coming back. Not because the system wouldn’t allow it (that would be an easy fix), but because society wouldn’t allow it. With the past system never coming back all we can do is look forward. We all know eventually the system will collapse and something new will emerge because the money is there to watch teams with school A vs. school B on the jersey. I can definitely see a day where Bobby Dodd is sold out to watch a GTvs. UVA soccer or lacrosse match. The south will be the last hold out but large swaths of this country have already moved away from college football for other competitions.

 

[Root4GT]

Correction. We like the guy because the whole football world liked the guy at the time. Paul Bryant said he was the best and most respected coach he ever faced. Even the Dallas Cowboys borrowed from him. No, loving Dodd was not just a Tech thing. He was known and appreciated throughout the country. And the SEC and, eventually the NCAA rules, were shamed into changes because of Dodd’s principled stand. It is only in hindsight that we see that he and Tech paid too big a price.

Football has evolved light years since then in ways no one could have seen coming. College football was more important than pro sports back in the day and now major college sports are essentially the farm team for the pros. I wish there was someone as principled as Dodd to come along now and straighten up the current mess.

The one thing missing in the Dodd discussion is he coached before the "South" became integrated in football. That was a major change and would have had a great impact on GT with or without Dodd.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I hear you on Dodd. However, a lot of folks, myself 80% included, don’t see a “mess”. Things always change and with change some folks like it and see “a better future” and some see a “mess”. Would I like to see college players be actual students? Yes. But those days are NEVER coming back. Not because the system wouldn’t allow it (that would be an easy fix), but because society wouldn’t allow it. With the past system never coming back all we can do is look forward. We all know eventually the system will collapse and something new will emerge because the money is there to watch teams with school A vs. school B on the jersey. I can definitely see a day where Bobby Dodd is sold out to watch a GTvs. UVA soccer or lacrosse match. The south will be the last hold out but large swaths of this country have already moved away from college football for other competitions.

Fascinating.

On a related note I have wondered if traumatic head injuries will cause fewer people to want to play football in the future, further eroding support for the system. Also the Supreme Court decision (9-0) today was quite a slap at the NCAA’s anti-trust actions.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Fascinating.

On a related note I have wondered if traumatic head injuries will cause fewer people to want to play football in the future, further eroding support for the system. Also the Supreme Court decision (9-0) today was quite a slap at the NCAA’s anti-trust actions.

Honestly with the litigation system in this country, I’m shocked enough people haven’t sued to try and end football. Post death studies show almost 100% CTE.

BU Researchers Find CTE in 99% of Former NFL Players Studied

BU researchers find Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE), a degenerative brain disease involving tau protein, in 99% of former NFL players studied.

www.bu.edu