Coaching Upgrade?

[Em_Jae20]

With the side by side comparisons do you all feel we've upgraded the coaching staff?

 

[JacketOff]

I think as far as on field coaching goes every position either improved or stayed level, but losing Choice and Coleman will have an immediate impact on recruiting IMO. Those 2 losses also directly led to the loss of our best offensive player and one of our best defensive players. However, I believe the on field play and results will improve and that those effects will be washed away with newfound success. At least, that’s what I’m hoping for.

 

[slugboy]

I think as far as on field coaching goes every position either improved or stayed level, but losing Choice and Coleman will have an immediate impact on recruiting IMO. Those 2 losses also directly led to the loss of our best offensive player and one of our best defensive players. However, I believe the on field play and results will improve and that those effects will be washed away with newfound success. At least, that’s what I’m hoping for.

Gibbs left before Choice. I believe Ivey left before Coleman.
Even if they knew the coaches were moving in advance, it seems like both players had their own reasons to transfer.

 

[bobongo]

Long, Semore, Turner and Tillman are clear upgrades.
Wienke is a probable upgrade and Daniels is a wash.

If my belief is correct that this team has been held back because of coaching, we should be much improved next season.
I just hope everyone is clear on their responsibilities and we have a harmonious mesh on the coaching staff next year.
Still a little fuzzy on the DC situation.

 

[JasonJ]

Overall, the coaching staff has been upgraded. We'll see how it goes with the Suddes replacement. They did a good job with the portal. Got to win 6 in 2022.

 

[TromboneJacket]

I don’t like the way they arranged the comparisons because I can’t compare apples to oranges. Do I think Wiesehan has been better at his job than Weinke has at his? Yeah, probably, but they’re different jobs, so there’s no “upgrade” or “downgrade” to be had. Let’s take it position by position (these are simply my personal opinions, and if anyone wants an elaboration, just reply with the specifics):

OC: Patenaude - Long (Upgrade)
QBs: Patenaude - Weinke (No idea)
RBs: Choice - Daniels (Slight Downgrade)
TEs: Wiesehan - Long (Upgrade)

DC: Half Thacker - Full Thacker + Collins (Upgrade)
DEs: Coleman - Turner (Upgrade)
LBs: Half Thacker - Semore (Upgrade)
DBs: Burton & Popovich - Tillman (Upgrade)

Special Teams: ???

 

[JacketOff]

Gibbs left before Choice. I believe Ivey left before Coleman.
Even if they knew the coaches were moving in advance, it seems like both players had their own reasons to transfer.

Come on man. News of both Gibbs and Ivey transferring or entering the portal emerged just days before news Choice and Coleman accepted new positions. Do you really think it’s a coincidence? Coaching hires don’t happen in a day. It’s likely Choice and Coleman had been interviewed for multiple jobs and had already “accepted” new positions by the time Gibbs and Ivey entered the portal, it just hadn’t been made official. Choice and Coleman were Gibbs’ and Ivey’s primary recruiters, and likely the main reason both ended up at Tech. Yeah, there probably were some other factors that led to both transferring, but surely you aren’t naive enough to believe they were purely coincidental with Choice and Coleman leaving.

 

[stech81]

Come on man. News of both Gibbs and Ivey transferring or entering the portal emerged just days before news Choice and Coleman accepted new positions. Do you really think it’s a coincidence? Coaching hires don’t happen in a day. It’s likely Choice and Coleman had been interviewed for multiple jobs and had already “accepted” new positions by the time Gibbs and Ivey entered the portal, it just hadn’t been made official. Choice and Coleman were Gibbs’ and Ivey’s primary recruiters, and likely the main reason both ended up at Tech. Yeah, there probably were some other factors that led to both transferring, but surely you aren’t naive enough to believe they were purely coincidental with Choice and Coleman leaving.

I have no way of knowing but I would have to agree both coaches and players knew it was going to happen.

 

[smokey_wasp]

Come on man. News of both Gibbs and Ivey transferring or entering the portal emerged just days before news Choice and Coleman accepted new positions. Do you really think it’s a coincidence? Coaching hires don’t happen in a day. It’s likely Choice and Coleman had been interviewed for multiple jobs and had already “accepted” new positions by the time Gibbs and Ivey entered the portal, it just hadn’t been made official. Choice and Coleman were Gibbs’ and Ivey’s primary recruiters, and likely the main reason both ended up at Tech. Yeah, there probably were some other factors that led to both transferring, but surely you aren’t naive enough to believe they were purely coincidental with Choice and Coleman leaving.

IMO, Gibbs was going, no matter what. Ivey? Maybe Coleman tipped the scale somewhat there? But again, an NIL deal was involved there that was probably the biggest factor

 

[slugboy]

Come on man. News of both Gibbs and Ivey transferring or entering the portal emerged just days before news Choice and Coleman accepted new positions. Do you really think it’s a coincidence? Coaching hires don’t happen in a day. It’s likely Choice and Coleman had been interviewed for multiple jobs and had already “accepted” new positions by the time Gibbs and Ivey entered the portal, it just hadn’t been made official. Choice and Coleman were Gibbs’ and Ivey’s primary recruiters, and likely the main reason both ended up at Tech. Yeah, there probably were some other factors that led to both transferring, but surely you aren’t naive enough to believe they were purely coincidental with Choice and Coleman leaving.

Coincidental is one thing. Ivey and Gibbs leaving because Coleman and Choice left is another.
It’s as easy to believe that Choice and Coleman found new jobs because their best players transferred and their head coach is facing a “win now or you’re gone” season. All four could have left because they saw the same season that we did.
Are you sure that Gibbs and Ivey stay if Choice and Coleman do? I’m not.

 

[iceeater1969]

I don’t like the way they arranged the comparisons because I can’t compare apples to oranges. Do I think Wiesehan has been better at his job than Weinke has at his? Yeah, probably, but they’re different jobs, so there’s no “upgrade” or “downgrade” to be had. Let’s take it position by position (these are simply my personal opinions, and if anyone wants an elaboration, just reply with the specifics):

OC: Patenaude - Long (Upgrade)
QBs: Patenaude - Weinke (No idea)
RBs: Choice - Daniels (Slight Downgrade)
TEs: Wiesehan - Long (Upgrade)

DC: Half Thacker - Full Thacker + Collins (Upgrade)
DEs: Coleman - Turner (Upgrade)
LBs: Half Thacker - Semore (Upgrade)
DBs: Burton & Popovich - Tillman (Upgrade)

Special Teams: ???

CGC corrected a major organizational error.
He tried to transition in year 1 using 3 qbs who had been recruited for the cpj offense. The qb position touches the ball every play and is the key to every play.


Having the oc coach the qbs while running the offense has delayed their development. CGC should have fixed this way sooner.

Weinke has very good credentials and adding him to Long is a major major up grade.

Adding long looks like a head to head upgrade at oc Him handling the TE looks like a wash. While he has other duties as oc , he has a strong track record .

The very experienced DE hire is a big upgrade to Coleman ( except recruiting) who had 1 year as asst DL coach at NFL team and 3 years at gt. Coach Knight was a rookie hire at gt.




In year 1 of cgc he had DL and de coaches who were rookies. This is a Collins mistake.

The new guy with Knight will call way more complicated DL rush. With this and the maturing of the DL players we can see major dividends. Plus Knight has been growing as a coach, has added 2 4 star DT. so I hope we find a way to keep him .

Imo Assuming some likely progression in ol the Sims play will be very significantly improved.

I would be happy about good offense prospects in 23 if we had a good qb and a good dl in 22!

Imo CGC has made moves in that direction .

The lbs and cb and safeties have been so disorganized and have so far to go I just am hoping. I have never seen anything like our safety play over last 2 years. What the heck was cgc been doing on defense remains a mystery.
Pray for defense.

 

[JacketOff]

Coincidental is one thing. Ivey and Gibbs leaving because Coleman and Choice left is another.
It’s as easy to believe that Choice and Coleman found new jobs because their best players transferred and their head coach is facing a “win now or you’re gone” season. All four could have left because they saw the same season that we did.
Are you sure that Gibbs and Ivey stay if Choice and Coleman do? I’m not.

Am I sure they stay? Absolutely not. Is there a much higher chance that they do stay? Absolutely.

IMO, Gibbs was going, no matter what. Ivey? Maybe Coleman tipped the scale somewhat there?

Rumors that Lincoln Riley was already locked in on accepting the USC job before the season was over, which means he was probably in contact with potential staff members before the season was over. Tech ends the year badly, Choice lets Gibbs know he’s probably gone, Gibbs enters the portal, less than 2 weeks later Choice agrees to go to USC, and later to Texas.

January 16, 2021 Michigan State DL coach resigns. MSU probably reaches out to Marco, and he lets his guys know he’s probably leaving. At a seemingly random time right as spring practice and workouts are starting, projected starter Jared Ivey enters the portal on January 28. On February 8, less than 2 weeks later, Marco Coleman gets announced as MSU’s new DL coach.

I mean, if you think about it and look at the timelines, it’s fairly obvious Choice and Coleman leaving were significant factors in Gibbs and Ivey transferring. The only factors? Once again, probably not, but significant nonetheless. If those guys are still here there’s a much greater than 0% chance that either one or both of Gibbs and Ivey are also still here. But alas, none of the 4 are, and there’s a new staff to take control of the future.

 

[WreckinGT]

Seems like the new OC and QBs coach should improve things as far as QB play, TE play and play calling in general are concerned. They will have to overcome significant turnover at RB and WR, and probably another poor OL so they have their work cut out for them. I do think they can improve things though. The rest? We will see. With Thacker in charge and the loss of some key players, im not overly confident that the new defensive coaches will make much of a difference. Whether they were actually an upgrade or not will be hard to tell at the end. Im not going to worry too much about recruiting right now. If these guys don't figure it out this year then most if not all will be gone anyways, making recruiting a moot point.

 

[lv20gt]

IMO I don't know if it is an upgrade overall but I do strongly believe our initial coaching group was put together to do two things. One, recruit. Two, ride out the transition. Especially on the offensive side of the ball it was likely going to be hard to lure a high quality OC here so we went with someone with ties to Collins to set the foundation. Meanwhile we seemed to make a bigger deal about position coaches with recruiting chops. Now that we have an experienced QB for this system, and an OL with a couple years in system development, we fire the OC and lure a higher thought of one. The great recruiters (some of) move on and we fill out with those that seem more geared towards the development/x's and os aspects. I've long thought that the OC plan was to give Patenaude a shot to make something during the transition but plan on going after a bigger name OC down the line.

 

[takethepoints]

I think some of the new coaches are likely to want to do the right things, but whether we have the talent to do so is, I think, still in doubt. Further, Collins will have to take his hand partly off the wheel at the very time when his job will be in jeopardy. He hasn't shown much in there way of being willing to let his assistants coach their way so far.

But … this year may be the charm. Whether that will lead to more then 3 wins remains to be seen.

 

[SteamWhistle]

We had young coaches that were really just recruiters and now we have guys who are looking to produce some results on the field. I think Collins was in over his head thinking having above average talent could cut it. Even with the increase in talent we aren’t very far ahead if at all ahead of anyone we play. Hopefully the attention to detail is there and we coach the guys up. Each position group needs to get back to the basics and just be able to play coherent football, Then we can get cute with the scheme. It’s why I loved Ted Roof. With todays offenses I like trying to force them to consistently operate at a high level on 3rd down to have success, rather then be aggressive all drive and give up chunk yardage. Teds scheme had its flaws but the general philosophy of bend but don’t break is perfect for Tech. Unless you have NFL guys coming off the edge Collins UF/Miss St scheme is not going to cut it.

 

[chewybaka]

Coincidental is one thing. Ivey and Gibbs leaving because Coleman and Choice left is another.
It’s as easy to believe that Choice and Coleman found new jobs because their best players transferred and their head coach is facing a “win now or you’re gone” season. All four could have left because they saw the same season that we did.
Are you sure that Gibbs and Ivey stay if Choice and Coleman do? I’m not.

Gibbs for sure...Ivey is taking a risk because he has not delivered at Tech (potential can only go so far and he played it well) and now must delivery with results or get processed out and lose NIL $

 

[slugboy]

Am I sure they stay? Absolutely not. Is there a much higher chance that they do stay? Absolutely.


Rumors that Lincoln Riley was already locked in on accepting the USC job before the season was over, which means he was probably in contact with potential staff members before the season was over. Tech ends the year badly, Choice lets Gibbs know he’s probably gone, Gibbs enters the portal, less than 2 weeks later Choice agrees to go to USC, and later to Texas.

January 16, 2021 Michigan State DL coach resigns. MSU probably reaches out to Marco, and he lets his guys know he’s probably leaving. At a seemingly random time right as spring practice and workouts are starting, projected starter Jared Ivey enters the portal on January 28. On February 8, less than 2 weeks later, Marco Coleman gets announced as MSU’s new DL coach.

I mean, if you think about it and look at the timelines, it’s fairly obvious Choice and Coleman leaving were significant factors in Gibbs and Ivey transferring. The only factors? Once again, probably not, but significant nonetheless. If those guys are still here there’s a much greater than 0% chance that either one or both of Gibbs and Ivey are also still here. But alas, none of the 4 are, and there’s a new staff to take control of the future.

I think Gibbs wants a Heisman, or a Doak Walker, or at least be in the conversation. That’s not happening on a 3-9 team with defenders in the backfield. Alabama is probably his best shot for that, but he had other major contenders.
Choice wouldn’t dent that logic, staying or going.
Gibbs is also likely to have better numbers and more highlights and possibly get hit less at Alabama.
Ivey is more plausible. However, there are two groups in the transfer portal—hot free agents and castoffs. Ivey saw a feeding frenzy for Gibbs and saw the attention an A-lister gets. He knew his value.
It’s also likely that Ivey gets better stats and highlights on a defense in the top 100 defenses.
If players were leaving because of coaches leaving, you’d expect more DBs to leave because of Burton and Popovich. Many players were vocally upset, and seeing a leader you respect get fired is a bigger motivator to leave than seeing one leave for a better job. But, they didn’t. That’s a clear sign that the thing that draws star players into the portal is demand and the ability to move to a better opportunity.
Choice was a hot commodity and left. Then he switched jobs to coach a résumé—building back in Texas. That’s a clear sign that a position coach will follow a gamer. I’m fact, he did follow a gamer—he chose a job with a gamer over another one with a better mentor in Riley. On the other hand, Gibbs didn’t follow Choice—and he could have. Finally, if Gibbs would stay here, that’s enough reason for Choice to stay one more year.
That doesn’t mean that Choice and Coleman aren’t up and coming coaches. But if you don’t have job security and you lose some of your best players, it’s smart to look around. It’s much easier to get a new job while you have one.

Unless you’ve got some other background info, I don’t think you’ve got this right.

 

[JacketOff]

I think Gibbs wants a Heisman, or a Doak Walker, or at least be in the conversation. That’s not happening on a 3-9 team with defenders in the backfield. Alabama is probably his best shot for that, but he had other major contenders.
Choice wouldn’t dent that logic, staying or going.
Gibbs is also likely to have better numbers and more highlights and possibly get hit less at Alabama.
Ivey is more plausible. However, there are two groups in the transfer portal—hot free agents and castoffs. Ivey saw a feeding frenzy for Gibbs and saw the attention an A-lister gets. He knew his value.
It’s also likely that Ivey gets better stats and highlights on a defense in the top 100 defenses.
If players were leaving because of coaches leaving, you’d expect more DBs to leave because of Burton and Popovich. Many players were vocally upset, and seeing a leader you respect get fired is a bigger motivator to leave than seeing one leave for a better job. But, they didn’t. That’s a clear sign that the thing that draws star players into the portal is demand and the ability to move to a better opportunity.
Choice was a hot commodity and left. Then he switched jobs to coach a résumé—building back in Texas. That’s a clear sign that a position coach will follow a gamer. I’m fact, he did follow a gamer—he chose a job with a gamer over another one with a better mentor in Riley. On the other hand, Gibbs didn’t follow Choice—and he could have. Finally, if Gibbs would stay here, that’s enough reason for Choice to stay one more year.
That doesn’t mean that Choice and Coleman aren’t up and coming coaches. But if you don’t have job security and you lose some of your best players, it’s smart to look around. It’s much easier to get a new job while you have one.

Unless you’ve got some other background info, I don’t think you’ve got this right.

It’s fairly obvious you’re not looking at all of the info together or just aren’t thinking critically about the events that transpired. If Ivey saw the feeding frenzy for Gibbs, why didn’t he enter the portal in November when Gibbs did, or December when Gibbs committed to Bama.

Choice and Coleman made career moves. I agree. Literally no one has said otherwise. But what you don’t seem to get is that their decisions to make those moves had a sizable impact on Gibbs’ and Ivey’s decisions. It’s all right there. I even outlined the timelines for you. It’s cut and dry. You think it’s all coincidental that MSU’s DL coach left, Ivey entered the portal, and MSU hired Coleman all within a couple of weeks? I’m really not sure why you’re acting like Gibbs and/or Ivey made their decisions without prior knowledge that the coaches were leaving. You have it backwards thinking that Choice and Coleman left after Gibbs and Ivey made their decisions instead of the other way around. Also, I said that it wasn’t going to be 100% that they both stay anyway. But it’s far more likely one or both stay if Choice and Coleman stay.

Either way it’s irrelevant now.

 

[slugboy]

It’s fairly obvious you’re not looking at all of the info together or just aren’t thinking critically about the events that transpired. If Ivey saw the feeding frenzy for Gibbs, why didn’t he enter the portal in November when Gibbs did, or December when Gibbs committed to Bama.

Choice and Coleman made career moves. I agree. Literally no one has said otherwise. But what you don’t seem to get is that their decisions to make those moves had a sizable impact on Gibbs’ and Ivey’s decisions. It’s all right there. I even outlined the timelines for you. It’s cut and dry. You think it’s all coincidental that MSU’s DL coach left, Ivey entered the portal, and MSU hired Coleman all within a couple of weeks? I’m really not sure why you’re acting like Gibbs and/or Ivey made their decisions without prior knowledge that the coaches were leaving. You have it backwards thinking that Choice and Coleman left after Gibbs and Ivey made their decisions instead of the other way around. Also, I said that it wasn’t going to be 100% that they both stay anyway. But it’s far more likely one or both stay if Choice and Coleman stay.

Either way it’s irrelevant now.

Other people have thought about this critically and come to a different conclusion.

If Gibbs and Ivey left because of their position coaches, why aren’t they at Texas and Michigan State with them?

Choice and Coleman can’t tamper or solicit, but an athlete can definitely pick a school because of a coach.