Clinton & Trump are criminals and should be in jail. /sarcasm

[UgaBlows]

Sessions will pull the Reagan "I do not recall". Whether he stays or not or gets in trouble or not is of no consequence to me. Did you notice that this information came from surveillance of his conversations? It's amazing to me how much surveilling and leaking is coming from the intelligence services. It's really amazing.

Caught up in surveillence of russians, thats just being a dumbazz.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Caught up in surveillence of russians, thats just being a dumbazz.

Yea but what he said is of no consequence at all. Just being on the phone with people. But the intelligence folks are continuously leaking bits and pieces out as they see fit.
I think our intelligence services are the ones colluding with the Russians. They failed us in NYC again. Maybe we just need to shut their arsses down.

 

[UgaBlows]

here's a timeline -

Date Content Source
3/31 Meeting of Trump national security committee. Papadopoulos says he has Russian connections and wants to set up meeting b/w Putin and Trump 1
5/21 Papadopoulos emails Manafort the Timofeev email of ~5/4 with header "Request from Russia to meet Mr Trump". Manafort fwds to Gates: "We need someone to communicate that [Trump] is not doing these trips. It should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal." 1; 2, 3 - fwd to Gates
~5/25 GRU access to DNC ends. Latest part of DNC data later leaked by Wikileaks. 1 - wikileaks
June 2016 RISS, Russian govt-linked think-tank, circulates memo within Russian govt recommending social media campaign to encourage U.S. to elect president who would take “a softer line toward Russia”. 1
June 2016 Facebook notices influx of new accounts linked to Fancy Bear / GRU, including pages for Guccifer 2.0 and DCLeaks. 1
6/3 Wikileaks creates “insurance file” of DNC data. 1
6/3 Goldstone emails Trump Jr re Aras Agalarov obtaining material to "incriminate Hillary", providing this as "part of Russia and its government's support of Mr Trump" 1
6/6 Clinton clinches Democratic nomination. 1
6/7 Goldstone arranges meeting between "Russian lawyer" and Trump Jr, Manafort, Kushner. 1
6/9, ~4pm Trump Tower meeting b/w Trump Jr, Manafort, Kushner, Veselnitskaya, Goldstone, Rinat Akhmetshin, Ike Kaveladze and translator. Covers Magnitsky Act sanctions ("adoptions") and offer of dirt on Clinton. Trump is in the building. 1, 2 - timing, Trump's whereabouts
6/9, 4.40pm Trump tweets about Clinton's "33,000 missing emails" 1
6/12 Assange announces Wikileaks will soon release data on Clinton. 1
6/14 News breaks of DNC hack incl “oppo research” on Trump (and targetting of Trump and Clinton campaigns and some GOP PACs). Crowdstrike, DNC's security team, publicly attribute hack to Russia's "Fancy Bear" (GRU) and "Cozy Bear" (SVR). 1 - reports, 2 - Crowdstrike
6/15 “Guccifer 2.0” (US intel believes = GRU) first appears, denies Russian involvement, claims credit for DNC hack. Leaks first DNC doc being Trump oppo file. 1 - timing, 2 - attribution, 3 - Guccifer site
6/19 Wikileaks tweets out “insurance” file of DNC / Guccifer 2.0 data (created 6/3). 1
6/19 Papadopoulos emails Lewandowski re a "campaign rep" going to Russia for meetings "off the record". 1
"Few weeks before" 7/7 Page seeks permission to travel to Moscow from then-campaign manager, Lewandowski. Lewandowski says he agreed on condition that Page not call himself an official representative. 1
June 2016 Kushner takes over Trump campaign’s initiative to microtarget voters. 1, 2
Week of 6/20 Trump campaign (Brad Parscale, described as "proxy for Jared Kushner") meets Cambridge Analytica and RNC in San Antonio to discuss how CA "could help target voters with narrowly framed micro-messages" 1
Week of 6/20 Uptick in DNS lookups on Trump - Alfa Bank server 1
~Week of 6/20 Cambridge Analytica CEO contacts Assange, "about a month before WikiLeaks began releasing its trove of emails" (ie 7/22), asking him for "Clinton-related emails" so CA could "aid in disseminating them". 1
6/21 Uptick in Trump campaign payments to Giles-Parscale (approx $25M spent thru to early Aug) 1
Late June Page and Papadopoulos present for dinner with Jeff Sessions. Page mentions he is going to Russia. 1 - Page, 2 - Papadopoulos
~7/7 Page travels to Russia for speech at New Economic School (organisation set up by Alfa Bank's Pyotr Aven), criticises US policy, meets Rus Dep PM. Page later admits he met Rosneft exec - likely on this trip. Steele Dossier alleges Page met Sechin, head of Rosneft, re lifting sanctions on Russia. Dossier also alleges he met Diveykin re releasing Russian material on Clinton, and that Diveykin hinted at "kompromat" on Trump. 1, 2 - meets Dep PM, 3 - Rosneft), 4 - Aven 5 - Dossier
Late July FBI counter-intel investigation of Trump assocs and Russia begins, prompted by Page’s trip. 1
~7/13 Pre-convention platform meeting: Trump staffers JD Gordon and Matt Miller soften language on US aid to Ukraine (vs Russia). Gordon says due to Trump’s view, at March “nat sec meeting” at unfinished Trump hotel in DC, that didn’t want “WW3” over Ukraine. 1 - timing, 2 - Gordon and Miller, 3 - March meeting
10.30am, 7/22 First Wikileaks dump of DNC data (supplied by Guccifer 2.0 ie GRU). 1 - wikileaks’s own timing

 

[UgaBlows]

Yea but what he said is of no consequence at all. Just being on the phone with people. But the intelligence folks are continuously leaking bits and pieces out as they see fit.
I think our intelligence services are the ones colluding with the Russians. They failed us in NYC again. Maybe we just need to shut their arsses down.

Really the main issue at this time is that he lied about it. Why?

"A former official said that the intelligence indicates that Sessions and Kislyak had "substantive" discussions on matters including Trump's positions on Russia-related issues and prospects for U.S.-Russia relations in a Trump administration."

 

[OldJacketFan]

Well of course, the dark state is setting things up for Mueller to be crowned King of the U.S.

 

[AE 87]

Really the main issue at this time is that he lied about it. Why?

"A former official said that the intelligence indicates that Sessions and Kislyak had "substantive" discussions on matters including Trump's positions on Russia-related issues and prospects for U.S.-Russia relations in a Trump administration."

Fwiw, that quote doesn't say anything about the campaign and how they can work together to defeat Hillary. The accusation was of collusion in the election. That was what was being denied.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

here's a timeline -

Date Content Source
3/31 Meeting of Trump national security committee. Papadopoulos says he has Russian connections and wants to set up meeting b/w Putin and Trump 1
5/21 Papadopoulos emails Manafort the Timofeev email of ~5/4 with header "Request from Russia to meet Mr Trump". Manafort fwds to Gates: "We need someone to communicate that [Trump] is not doing these trips. It should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal." 1; 2, 3 - fwd to Gates
~5/25 GRU access to DNC ends. Latest part of DNC data later leaked by Wikileaks. 1 - wikileaks
June 2016 RISS, Russian govt-linked think-tank, circulates memo within Russian govt recommending social media campaign to encourage U.S. to elect president who would take “a softer line toward Russia”. 1
June 2016 Facebook notices influx of new accounts linked to Fancy Bear / GRU, including pages for Guccifer 2.0 and DCLeaks. 1
6/3 Wikileaks creates “insurance file” of DNC data. 1
6/3 Goldstone emails Trump Jr re Aras Agalarov obtaining material to "incriminate Hillary", providing this as "part of Russia and its government's support of Mr Trump" 1
6/6 Clinton clinches Democratic nomination. 1
6/7 Goldstone arranges meeting between "Russian lawyer" and Trump Jr, Manafort, Kushner. 1
6/9, ~4pm Trump Tower meeting b/w Trump Jr, Manafort, Kushner, Veselnitskaya, Goldstone, Rinat Akhmetshin, Ike Kaveladze and translator. Covers Magnitsky Act sanctions ("adoptions") and offer of dirt on Clinton. Trump is in the building. 1, 2 - timing, Trump's whereabouts
6/9, 4.40pm Trump tweets about Clinton's "33,000 missing emails" 1
6/12 Assange announces Wikileaks will soon release data on Clinton. 1
6/14 News breaks of DNC hack incl “oppo research” on Trump (and targetting of Trump and Clinton campaigns and some GOP PACs). Crowdstrike, DNC's security team, publicly attribute hack to Russia's "Fancy Bear" (GRU) and "Cozy Bear" (SVR). 1 - reports, 2 - Crowdstrike
6/15 “Guccifer 2.0” (US intel believes = GRU) first appears, denies Russian involvement, claims credit for DNC hack. Leaks first DNC doc being Trump oppo file. 1 - timing, 2 - attribution, 3 - Guccifer site
6/19 Wikileaks tweets out “insurance” file of DNC / Guccifer 2.0 data (created 6/3). 1
6/19 Papadopoulos emails Lewandowski re a "campaign rep" going to Russia for meetings "off the record". 1
"Few weeks before" 7/7 Page seeks permission to travel to Moscow from then-campaign manager, Lewandowski. Lewandowski says he agreed on condition that Page not call himself an official representative. 1
June 2016 Kushner takes over Trump campaign’s initiative to microtarget voters. 1, 2
Week of 6/20 Trump campaign (Brad Parscale, described as "proxy for Jared Kushner") meets Cambridge Analytica and RNC in San Antonio to discuss how CA "could help target voters with narrowly framed micro-messages" 1
Week of 6/20 Uptick in DNS lookups on Trump - Alfa Bank server 1
~Week of 6/20 Cambridge Analytica CEO contacts Assange, "about a month before WikiLeaks began releasing its trove of emails" (ie 7/22), asking him for "Clinton-related emails" so CA could "aid in disseminating them". 1
6/21 Uptick in Trump campaign payments to Giles-Parscale (approx $25M spent thru to early Aug) 1
Late June Page and Papadopoulos present for dinner with Jeff Sessions. Page mentions he is going to Russia. 1 - Page, 2 - Papadopoulos
~7/7 Page travels to Russia for speech at New Economic School (organisation set up by Alfa Bank's Pyotr Aven), criticises US policy, meets Rus Dep PM. Page later admits he met Rosneft exec - likely on this trip. Steele Dossier alleges Page met Sechin, head of Rosneft, re lifting sanctions on Russia. Dossier also alleges he met Diveykin re releasing Russian material on Clinton, and that Diveykin hinted at "kompromat" on Trump. 1, 2 - meets Dep PM, 3 - Rosneft), 4 - Aven 5 - Dossier
Late July FBI counter-intel investigation of Trump assocs and Russia begins, prompted by Page’s trip. 1
~7/13 Pre-convention platform meeting: Trump staffers JD Gordon and Matt Miller soften language on US aid to Ukraine (vs Russia). Gordon says due to Trump’s view, at March “nat sec meeting” at unfinished Trump hotel in DC, that didn’t want “WW3” over Ukraine. 1 - timing, 2 - Gordon and Miller, 3 - March meeting
10.30am, 7/22 First Wikileaks dump of DNC data (supplied by Guccifer 2.0 ie GRU). 1 - wikileaks’s own timing

You do realize that none of this matters and none of this is illegal, correct? If I were running for President, and any country said they had compromising information on my competitor, I'd be interested to know what it is. I'd also be talking to literally dozens of countries in terms of how we can build relationships, get to know who people are, and so on.

Collusion as it applies to working together in a campaign or professionally isn't a problem. Its not illegal.

I mean, Obama literally funded opposition groups with our main ally (Israel) to get Bibi defeated. Hillary paid the Russians effectively through Steele to get the dossier created (Steele worked with the Russians to build it out). None of any of that is illegal.

Apparently, neither is taking hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign governments and then setting policy based on it.

You and I are colluding right now to great a great forum.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

You do realize that none of this matters and none of this is illegal, correct? If I were running for President, and any country said they had compromising information on my competitor, I'd be interested to know what it is. I'd also be talking to literally dozens of countries in terms of how we can build relationships, get to know who people are, and so on.

Collusion as it applies to working together in a campaign or professionally isn't a problem. Its not illegal.

I mean, Obama literally funded opposition groups with our main ally (Israel) to get Bibi defeated. Hillary paid the Russians effectively through Steele to get the dossier created (Steele worked with the Russians to build it out). None of any of that is illegal.

Apparently, neither is taking hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign governments and then setting policy based on it.

You and I are colluding right now to great a great forum.

I don't care if Hillary did it also, or any other president. It's damn stupid to accept "dirt" on a political rival in the US from agents of an enemy or quasi enemy state.

Even if received unsolicited it should be taken with extreme care. It should also not be used for political gains until verified by our own intelligence services or investigated by Congress etc. True of the Trump dossier and true of the meeting with Manafort, Kushner, and the Russian broad

Which brings me to the incredibly harmful distrust the public currently has with the FBI and intelligence services. It's damn frustrating and mind boggling. The leaks, the conflicts of interest smh.

I don't like Trump, I think he's a boob with a shallow understanding of our Constitution, history, and foreign policy. My main concern with him is being misled. He hasn't been in power long enough to be much of a target for foreign corruption for a significant length of time. The same cannot be said of the people surrounding him. Hillary, that's another matter entirely and I am beyond suspicious regarding her sleazy ***.

 

[UgaBlows]

You do realize that none of this matters and none of this is illegal, correct? If I were running for President, and any country said they had compromising information on my competitor, I'd be interested to know what it is. I'd also be talking to literally dozens of countries in terms of how we can build relationships, get to know who people are, and so on.

Collusion as it applies to working together in a campaign or professionally isn't a problem.

You and I are colluding right now to great a great forum.

I'm glad were colluding here, i love this forum!

Why all the lies from trump and his team if there's nothing wrong with collusion with a hostile foriegn country? I'm not so sure that our laws agree with you on all the fine points of that. Funny how team trump's talking points went from No Collusion! To collusion is legal right after trump jr's little meeting.

I'm not interested in your obama/hillary whataboutism, lts focus on the man who is running our country and the "Best" people he has hired along the way.

Interesting article about his foriegn policy team

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/trump-foreign-policy-advisers.html

 

[UgaBlows]

Fwiw, that quote doesn't say anything about the campaign and how they can work together to defeat Hillary. The accusation was of collusion in the election. That was what was being denied.

I agree, the problem with Sessions is that he has lied under oath regarding russians about 3 times now. Why? What else is he hiding? When the top law man in the country is caught lying it's a bad look. I think trump may use this opportunity as a legit reason to fire recused sessions.

 

[UgaBlows]

I don't care if Hillary did it also, or any other president. It's damn stupid to accept "dirt" on a political rival in the US from agents of an enemy or quasi enemy state.

Even if received unsolicited it should be taken with extreme care. It should also not be used for political gains until verified by our own intelligence services or investigated by Congress etc. True of the Trump dossier and true of the meeting with Manafort, Kushner, and the Russian broad

Which brings me to the incredibly harmful distrust the public currently has with the FBI and intelligence services. It's damn frustrating and mind boggling. The leaks, the conflicts of interest smh.

I don't like Trump, I think he's a boob with a shallow understanding of our Constitution, history, and foreign policy. My main concern with him is being misled. He hasn't been in power long enough to be much of a target for foreign corruption for a significant length of time. The same cannot be said of the people surrounding him. Hillary, that's another matter entirely and I am beyond suspicious regarding her sleazy ***.

The question is did trump know about all the hinky things going on or was he a clueless dip**** in all this? Collusion is going to be hard to prove because i think trump probably insulated himself from a email/paper trail. It's going to be his word against others which won't convince a lot of people. There may be recordings from US and foriegn intelligence but it's my understanding that sigint is usually not admissible in court. Whats going to ultimately sink trump imo is money laundering/financial crimes past or present. Collusion and obstruction may be the icing on the cake if it's provable.

 

[AE 87]

I agree, the problem with Sessions is that he has lied under oath regarding russians about 3 times now. Why? What else is he hiding? When the top law man in the country is caught lying it's a bad look. I think trump may use this opportunity as a legit reason to fire recused sessions.

I disagree with the characterization of his statements as lying under oath. In fact, I think that characterization stems from immature gotcha politics. That being said, I don't have cable and have come to that conclusion from watching the testimony and some commentary, both left and right, on youtube.

The questions, especially from Franken, seemed well contextualized as regarding collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. His answers seemed to be, on their face, that he did not know of, nor participate in, any such meetings. Taking those answers to say that he didn't meet or speak with any Russian officials as a Senator is what I mean by immature, gotcha politics.

The fact remains, iiuc, that there has been no evidence (beyond the questionable dossier) of any kind of collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign after months of investigation.

Now, to clear up another possible confusion. Collusion refers to cooperation. Getting information is not collusion, especially when it's not acted on. So, the Trump Jr. et al. meeting with the Russian lawyer does not involve collusion and the fact that it is not illegal has nothing to do with a change of story on the question of collusion.

The connection between that meeting and the question of collusion, iirc, arises from the purpose of the meeting attributed to the Russian lawyer 2nd hand in an e-mail to Trump Jr, "This is obviously very high level and sensitive information [documents showing dirt on Hillary and her dealings with Russia] but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump." However, all accounts of the meeting indicate that no such documents nor information was provided nor acted on.

However, we have learned that the lawyer may have had connections with Fusion GPS, the same firm which HRC and DNC were payed for the Dossier. Tifwiw.

 

[UgaBlows]

AE, i agree to a point. It depends on the collusion, there can be criminal collusion, or non-criminal but politically very damaging. It will be very hard to definitively prove in court. I feel pretty strong that Mueller knows a whole lot more than we do though.

The russians would love for us to rip this country apart, i have no doubt about that. If nothing else these investigations will hopefully expose exactly what they did and help us prevent and fight it in the future. The idea that either side worked with them makes me sick!

 

[AE 87]

AE, i agree to a point. It depends on the collusion, there can be criminal collusion, or non-criminal but politically very damaging. It will be very hard to definitively prove in court. I feel pretty strong that Mueller knows a whole lot more than we do though.

The russians would love for us to rip this country apart, i have no doubt about that. If nothing else these investigations will hopefully expose exactly what they did and help us prevent and fight it in the future. The idea that either side worked with them makes me sick!

I'm sure Mueller does know more (though I'm not sure that he knows of any evidence of collusion because I don't think such collusion took place). However, I also do not think Mueller is an honest broker and would resign if he had integrity. He not only hired an attorney who had several convictions overturned by the Supreme Court because of prosecutorial misconduct but also hired an attorney who represented the Clinton Foundation. Even if someone believes that HRC and the Clinton Foundation are innocent and will ultimately be exonerated, they have to admit that there's enough evidence to warrant an investigation. Hiring several attorneys who've made contribution to HRC and other Democrats while hiring none who have made contributions to Republican candidates certainly suggests a one-sided political motivation.

I agree with you that sewing division is much more in the Russian interest than supporting a candidate who pledged to be more harsh with their ally Iran.

 

[UgaBlows]

I'm sure Mueller does know more (though I'm not sure that he knows of any evidence of collusion because I don't think such collusion took place). However, I also do not think Mueller is an honest broker and would resign if he had integrity. He not only hired an attorney who had several convictions overturned by the Supreme Court because of prosecutorial misconduct but also hired an attorney who represented the Clinton Foundation. Even if someone believes that HRC and the Clinton Foundation are innocent and will ultimately be exonerated, they have to admit that there's enough evidence to warrant an investigation. Hiring several attorneys who've made contribution to HRC and other Democrats while hiring none who have made contributions to Republican candidates certainly suggests a one-sided political motivation.

I agree with you that sewing division is much more in the Russian interest than supporting a candidate who pledged to be more harsh with their ally Iran.

Your belief bias is pretty intense, i guess mine is too, there's no way either of us are convincing the other of ANYthing...

 

[UgaBlows]

Interesting take on the HRC- Dem party scandal by Rick Wilson (conservative anti-trumper) scroll down.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheRickWilson

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Interesting take on the HRC- Dem party scandal by Rick Wilson (conservative anti-trumper)

That's because all of this is old news. She's also another lying *** so I have no reason to trust this or anything else she says or...more importantly...withholds.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/2/hillary-clinton-defends-trump-dossier-opposition-r/

 

[AE 87]

Your belief bias is pretty intense, i guess mine is too, there's no way either of us are convincing the other of ANYthing...

Interesting response. Where do you see belief bias?

If Ken Starr had hired several attorneys who were significant contributors to Republican campaigns and the RNC but none who contributed to the DNC or Democrats when investigating Clinton, I would also have seen that as evidence of not being an honest broker. I gave what I considered undisputed facts and my inference from those facts, so if there is a belief bias lurking, I'd like to know what it is.

 

[MWBATL]

I have NO confidence that the investigations are all anything but politically motivated, deep state, swamp circuses. Some on the left, some on the right. But I have NO confidence any of them are doing anything other than covering "their side's" behinds and trying to point the finger at the other guys.

And that's just sad. It seems corruption and collusion have imbedded themselves so deeply in the DC political game that their is no real honest news, no honest solution, no honest people.

I have no answers, but I have seriously lost faith. And once upon a time, I had faith.