Chuck showing CBG some love

RamblinRed

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Have you ever heard a coach say publicly someone is not a good coach. It's a tight fraternity.

He is simply not an ACC caliber coach, his record proves that - he's just treading above the Bzdelik line. Whatever the reason is for that (and it can be different reasons for different coaches), it doesn't change the fact that his record shows him not being an ACC caliber coach.
I'd agree that recruiting is the biggest issue and have an analysis of that i'll post later.

Whenever money is no longer an object he should be replaced. He'd do fine at a mid major level. Heck he could probably be solid at an SEC level (he's 11-7 lifetime against the SEC). But the ACC is a big boy league and he simply is not good enough and never will be.
 

RamblinRed

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Here's the analysis I had in a separate post on another board.

To compete in the ACC you need to be signing at least 2 4* players per yr. Gregory has done that once - with Carter and MGH, and Carter left after 2 years. MGH is the only 4 star player to play more than 2 seasons at GT under Gregory.

He's had 1 ACC level starter play for 4 seasons on the Flats.That's abysmal.
Transfers who are here for only one year frankly count for less because they can only impact your program for 1 season.

He's had to go heavy on the transfer method because he has utterly failed to sign enough strong prospects out of HS.

Let's look at this year by year.
2012
MGH - consensus 4, 4 yr ACC level starter
Carter - consensus high 4
, ACC level starter, plays 2 yrs and transfers out
Bolden - consensus 3*, ACC level role player, part time starter, misses time multiple seasons, transfers out after 3
Heyward - unrated, spring signee, not an ACC caliber player

2013
Solo Poole - consensus 4, reclassifies and enrolls early. High risk kid who flames out, doesn't even start at FAU this season
Q - consensus 3
, ACC level role player
Jorgenson - consensus 3*, spring signee after missing on fall targets (particuarly Newkirk), injured FR yr, never really has recovered. Not currently an ACC level player.

2014
Tadric - consensus 4, has underperformed relative to ranking to this point. Will have a chance to show what he can do next season. ACC level role player right now, could be a starting caliber player
Lammers - consensus 3
solid developing big man. ACC role level player right now, could be a starter quality in future.
AD Gueye - not rated, spring signee, has made no impact yet, may or may not be ACC level player

2015
Sylvester Ogbonda - 3 star, developmental big man. redshirted this year, will see if he is ACC level soon enough

2016
White - consensus 4, will be expected to play alot or start as FR
Okogie - consensus 3
, had strong SR yr. Has the potential to develop as a poor man's Hunt
Matthews - consensus 3*, strong SR yr, could be nice wing scorer.

So in 5 yrs of recruiting he has signed 4 4* star players, only 2 of whom have proven to be ACC level starters, one of whom transferred out after 2 yrs. That's abysmal and shows why he has had to go so heavy in the spring transfer market to even field a team.

Let's look at transfers
2011
Pierre Jordan - grad transfer from FSU with 2 yrs of eligibility. Taken mainly to improve relationship with father and get an in with Carter. Not an ACC level player.

2012
Stacey Poole Jr - consensus 4* out of HS. Transferred from KY, helpful in getting Solo (that may not be a positive). Was severely overrated out of HS. Never made any impact at KY or GT. Not an ACC level player.

2013
Robert Sampson - transfer from East Carolina.Good rebounder and defender. ACC level role player
Trae Golden - consensus 4* in HS, transfer from TN. ACC level starter. Good player

2014
Charles Mitchell - consensus high 3 in HS, transfer from MD, 2 yrs eligibility, ACC level starter
Demarco Cox - consensus 4
out of HS, grad transfer from Ole Miss, good rebounder,defender. borderline ACC level starter
Josh Heath - 2* in HS, transfer from South FL due to father's relationship with Gregory. ACC level deep reserve

Nick Jacobs - consensus 4*, transfer from AL. ACC level starter.

2015
Adam Smith - started at UMC Wilmington, transferred to VT, grad transfer to GT. ACC level starter and best shooter at GT since at least Morrow.
James White - Grad transfer from Ark LR. Great energy/hustle type. ACC level role player.

He's brought in 10 transfers over his 5 yrs - including 5 grad transfers. I'd argue 4 of the top 6 players he's had at GT are transfers (Smith, Mitchell, Trae, Jacobs) and 3 of the 4 played 1 season.
I'd argue 2 of the 9 made no impact at all, weren't really ACC level and the other 4 were ACC role players.

Looking at 5 yrs of history you are currently seeing 1 ACC level starter from the HS ranks, a second who played 2 yrs and 2 more that may be ACC level starters their last 2 seasons. Not good.
From the transfer ranks, 4 ACC level starters who gave you 5 combined years and 4 that are role players.

Of his top 6 players, 1 played 4 yrs (MGH), 2 played 2 yrs (Carter, Mitchell), and 3 played 1 yr (Smith, Trae, Jacobs).
Of his 4 4* HS players who have matriculated, 1 was a 4 yr starter, 1 was a 2 yr starter, 1 is a 2 yr backup and 1 is a bust. That is a poor return on 4* players.

He simply has failed to recruit at anywhere near the level needed to be anything but a bottom third ACC level school and frankly there is no indication that is likely to change. GT has seldom been able to put more than 3 ACC level starters on the floor at a time during his tenure.

There's your unvarnished truth about recruiting (note I did not include any players he inherited from Hewitt as that is irrelevant to this discussion)
 

Peacone36

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So tired of hearing about the condition of the program when he got here.

How was Oklahoma when Kruger arrived? Warren Gallon and Mason Jr almost destroyed that program

Indiana when Crean arrived?
Baylor for Drew? Year 5 after A MURDER SCANDAL he had them in the dance
Enfield at USC after the Mayo crap.
UVA for Bennett.

If you can coach you can coach, the rest is excuses and window dressing.
 

CuseJacket

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look, pitino a year or two ago said publicly this is a good coach
jay wright said the same thing this year
again, another ncaa head coach who is a friend of mine from the big east, said he is a good coach

I don't agree that he isn't a ACC caliber coach; however, he becomes not an acc caliber coach due to recruiting aspect IMO. He has not recruited ACC caliber level. Why? who knows if its all on bG or not. IMO GT loves to upgrade depreciable assets like facilities; looking like they support the heck out of a program...but when you peel back the covers you see how little support staff is behind the scenes.....so is it all on BG? Who knows....but I can say without a doubt some is.

the dude took tech over in shambles too. Remember our temporary status for the arena? The academic problems, and troubling kids like Rice Jr etc...so he didn't start out on a solid ground to begin with...on top of budget issues..but since then..he hasn't recruited well enough either; and the progress isn't being made like it needs to be. It did this year...but they were all seniors and it wasn't due to building a program as much as flash in the pan.

So...thats the line I draw. I do think the guy is a good enough pure coach in the sense...and his colleagues unprompted have said as much; they have no reason to do that if they didn't think so. My issue is he isn't recruiting to the level we need him to; and that is part of being a coach.....so if he can't do it here...thats fine...we need to find someone who can or get an assistant or two more to help (recruiting staff etc)
33... I'll use a couple analogies I know you'll understand as a way to explain my thoughts.

Ted Roof took over a defense in shambles, made it slightly less so, and has the backing of many in the coaching profession who say he is a good coach.

BG is also not great at translating X's and O's to the court. He may know them and understand them with the best of the best. This is how I describe Al Groh. Our current crop of players have not maximized their potential as a team, imo, based on the repeated weaknesses propagating themselves throughout most of the year, many of which were correctable.
 

THWG72

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Gregory is not an ACC caliber coach. He is terrible at recruiting....which is part of coaching. I mean....he just admitted to how important having a good point guard is. He honestly thought he could compete over the years without an ACC caliber point gaurd. That says it all. And why was Heath running point so much in the last game. He ran point much of the second half and we tanked! I understand the defense was great, but our offense was terrible in the second half.
 

Vespidie

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So tired of hearing about the condition of the program when he got here.

How was Oklahoma when Kruger arrived? Warren Gallon and Mason Jr almost destroyed that program

Indiana when Crean arrived?
Baylor for Drew? Year 5 after A MURDER SCANDAL he had them in the dance
Enfield at USC after the Mayo crap.
UVA for Bennett.

If you can coach you can coach, the rest is excuses and window dressing.
33... I'll use a couple analogies I know you'll understand as a way to explain my thoughts.

Ted Roof took over a defense in shambles, made it slightly less so, and has the backing of many in the coaching profession who say he is a good coach.

BG is also not great at translating X's and O's to the court. He may know them and understand them with the best of the best. This is how I describe Al Groh. Our current crop of players have not maximized their potential as a team, imo, based on the repeated weaknesses propagating themselves throughout most of the year, many of which were correctable.

Explai
 

33jacket

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33... I'll use a couple analogies I know you'll understand as a way to explain my thoughts.

Ted Roof took over a defense in shambles, made it slightly less so, and has the backing of many in the coaching profession who say he is a good coach.

BG is also not great at translating X's and O's to the court. He may know them and understand them with the best of the best. This is how I describe Al Groh. Our current crop of players have not maximized their potential as a team, imo, based on the repeated weaknesses propagating themselves throughout most of the year, many of which were correctable.

I get the attempt with roof but i cant find anyone in the acc call him a good coach unprompted. He is also supposed to be this great refruiter unlike gregory to which you would expect even better than results than groh. And he is as bad or worse. So i hear you just maybe a tad of a stretch.

Perhaps groh is the right analogy or closer.....
 

orientalnc

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You are totally right with players coming back if he is fired right now. In a year maybe he can build a little of that back
Others may disagree, but we will have a down year next season. It does not matter if CBG is here or not. Coming back we have Q and Jackson and Lammers and Heath, all of whom played significant roles. None are stars in the making. None of the redshirts are potential stars, either. Maybe not even role players. Coming in are White, Okogie, and Mathews. For sure, White will have to contribute and it's possible Okogie and Mathews will, as well. Of these guys, White is the only potential star (based on what they have done so far).

What is not yet known is how well CBG or a new coach might do with two (possibly three) remaining scholarships for next season. Gregory has done a decent job talking grads into coming to Tech for a season, and that may be a good move for next year. The bottom line is that we may be looking at a Boston College type of season in 2017. It's hard to see how it could be otherwise.

I like to look at upside/downside analyses and next year is scary.

Upside: We get a couple ACC caliber starters in as transfers, Q and Jackson and Lammers all grow into ACC players, White has an ACC ROY type season, Okogie and Mathews are decent role players,and the schedule is kinder to us next year. If these things all happen (or most of them) I see us getting 5-6 ACC wins. No post season.

Downside: The transfers aren't as good as we need them to be (or we don't sign any), Q and Jackson and Lammers are about as good as they will ever be, White is OK but not a star, and Okogie and Mathews need time to develop. Folks, it could be a winless ACC season.

If you are MBob, would you like to live through that with a new coach who is out recruiting 4* guys in the Fall or with CBG facing the end of his time at Tech.
 

RamblinRed

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I wish he could recruit because I really like the guy.
I think most feel this way, but he is simply never going to recruit at that level. The dye is cast.

Looking through alot of coaching hires (especially in the ACC), coaches all of a sudden don't become better coaches in year 6-7-8, by year 5 you know what you have.

You also have to know how to present these things if you are an AD. if i'm MBob my pitch is really simple. I believe this should be a Top 25 program, a consistent NCAA program - all the pieces are in place for that, all we need is the right coach.
I know you don't have alot to start with, but you will be able to build your own roster quickly and without overbearing immediate expectations.
 

CuseJacket

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I get the attempt with roof but i cant find anyone in the acc call him a good coach unprompted. He is also supposed to be this great refruiter unlike gregory to which you would expect even better than results than groh. And he is as bad or worse. So i hear you just maybe a tad of a stretch.

Perhaps groh is the right analogy or closer.....
Circumstances are a little different, definitely agree with that. The similarities with Roof are closer in my mind with some additional context. 1) As you're aware others on this board have mentioned the accolades Roof receives from other coaches. Yes, recruiting is somewhat different, but like Gregory he has yet to consistently show anything anywhere he's been. 2) In football pressers you rarely hear opposing HCs talk about coordinators. It's commonplace in b'ball press conferences of late to speak about opposing HCs particularly when the seat is hot. Some might say it's the fraternity while others suggest the ulterior motive is to keep weaker coaches in place because of a competitive advantage.

I hear what you're saying and it's a matter of opinion when it comes to what coaches say/what you hear and the meaning behind it. Bottom line though is the results aren't there and there are clear X's and O's things happening on the court that are correctable. It has little to do with talent or the timing of transfers. There are less skilled teams with inferior recruits that play clean ball and do more with less e.g., Northern Iowa, Dayton, San Diego State, and the difference is coaching. There probably aren't many players on those teams that turned down GT or ACC offers.
 

McCamish Maniacs

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Others may disagree, but we will have a down year next season. It does not matter if CBG is here or not. Coming back we have Q and Jackson and Lammers and Heath, all of whom played significant roles. None are stars in the making. None of the redshirts are potential stars, either. Maybe not even role players. Coming in are White, Okogie, and Mathews. For sure, White will have to contribute and it's possible Okogie and Mathews will, as well. Of these guys, White is the only potential star (based on what they have done so far).

What is not yet known is how well CBG or a new coach might do with two (possibly three) remaining scholarships for next season. Gregory has done a decent job talking grads into coming to Tech for a season, and that may be a good move for next year. The bottom line is that we may be looking at a Boston College type of season in 2017. It's hard to see how it could be otherwise.

I like to look at upside/downside analyses and next year is scary.

Upside: We get a couple ACC caliber starters in as transfers, Q and Jackson and Lammers all grow into ACC players, White has an ACC ROY type season, Okogie and Mathews are decent role players,and the schedule is kinder to us next year. If these things all happen (or most of them) I see us getting 5-6 ACC wins. No post season.

Downside: The transfers aren't as good as we need them to be (or we don't sign any), Q and Jackson and Lammers are about as good as they will ever be, White is OK but not a star, and Okogie and Mathews need time to develop. Folks, it could be a winless ACC season.

If you are MBob, would you like to live through that with a new coach who is out recruiting 4* guys in the Fall or with CBG facing the end of his time at Tech.

Ingram, Okafor, Jabari, Hanlan, Rivers, Favors

^^^ Last six ACC rookie of the years

If White performs at that level, and the other stuff you said happens, I guarantee you we will win more than 5 games. But I definitely don't expect him to perform at that level
 
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