CFB PLAYOFF FINAL AND NO SEC

[RonJohn]

I don’t think this is entirely correct, although, I do agree it will be decided by the courts. Tye responsibilities of a contractor can be determined by the contract.

In the past 10 years or so, the government has gotten much more involved in "independent contractor" vs employee classifications. The IRS has gone after employers who misclassify employees to avoid taxes. The Department of Labor has been involved in misclassifications and issued a "test" for whether a worker is an employee or a contractor. Basically, a contract between an employer and a worker can't change the legal definition of "employee". I am not a lawyer, and the laws, regulations, and issues are overly complex. However, like I pointed out above, the NLRB has already declared that NCAA athletes at Dartmouth are employees. The NCAA has been losing over and over again in the courts trying to restrict athletes. This just seems to me to be a very obvious area that they are destined to lose again if they don't make changes to try to address it before it gets to court.

 

[stinger78]

In the past 10 years or so, the government has gotten much more involved in "independent contractor" vs employee classifications. The IRS has gone after employers who misclassify employees to avoid taxes. The Department of Labor has been involved in misclassifications and issued a "test" for whether a worker is an employee or a contractor. Basically, a contract between an employer and a worker can't change the legal definition of "employee". I am not a lawyer, and the laws, regulations, and issues are overly complex. However, like I pointed out above, the NLRB has already declared that NCAA athletes at Dartmouth are employees. The NCAA has been losing over and over again in the courts trying to restrict athletes. This just seems to me to be a very obvious area that they are destined to lose again if they don't make changes to try to address it before it gets to court.

Yes, the definition of employee is determined by the IRS. I have dealt with this before, but it has been about 8-10 years. Perhaps they have clarified even more. If that is the case, though, there are likely millions of contractors who will become employees in the near future.

 

[Richard7125]

Like you, I favor the 3-3-2-2-1-3, but the SEC and B1G will push for and likely get the 4-4-2-2-1-1.

I think the ACC Commissioner should advocate for 16 teams and a format like 4-4-3-3-1-1 with no byes. The CFP selection committee's only duties would be to establish the seeding and pick one G5 team and select one at large team. Conference standings would account for 14 of the 16 teams.

If I understand correctly, the major reason for the move to 14 teams is so the top 2 seeds will get a bye (Likely the B1G and SEC). I like 16 teams because the ACC would be more likely to receive 3 automatic bids rather than 2. Plus, I think everyone should play 4 games. I think a top seed is reward enough. A bye gives too much of an advantage in a collision and injury prone sport like Football.

"Like you, I favor the 3-3-2-2-1-3, but the SEC and B1G will push for and likely get the 4-4-2-2-1-1."

Automatic qualifiers don't really benefit the SEC and Big10. In most years, the majority of the teams in the top 15 will be SEC and Big10 teams. The AQs only benefit conferences like the ACC, Big12, G5 who might only have 1 (maybe 2) team in the top 15.

I wouldn't be surprised to see something like 3-3-1-1-1-5 or even 2-2-1-1-1-7. I don't think the SEC/Big10 will want to guarantee two teams from the ACC and Big12.

 

[yeti92]

Why not just go with the top 16 teams from the AP poll after the conf champ games are played?

Because 16 teams is too many, the polls are biased, and there is no reason to have 5+ teams from the same conference.

Here's what that would look like the last few years (based on current conference alignments)

2019 - 1 ACC, 6 SEC, 5 Big 10, 2 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

2020 - 2 ACC, 5 SEC, 4 Big 10, 3 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

2021 - 1 ACC, 4 SEC, 4 Big 10, 5 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

2022 - 2 ACC, 4 SEC, 6 Big 10, 3 Big 12, 1 G5

2023 - 2 ACC, 7 SEC, 5 Big 10, 1 Big 12, ND

2024 - 3 ACC, 6 SEC, 4 Big 10, 1 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

 

[UgaBlows]

Because 16 teams is too many, the polls are biased, and there is no reason to have 5+ teams from the same conference.

Here's what that would look like the last few years (based on current conference alignments)

2019 - 1 ACC, 6 SEC, 5 Big 10, 2 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

2020 - 2 ACC, 5 SEC, 4 Big 10, 3 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

2021 - 1 ACC, 4 SEC, 4 Big 10, 5 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

2022 - 2 ACC, 4 SEC, 6 Big 10, 3 Big 12, 1 G5

2023 - 2 ACC, 7 SEC, 5 Big 10, 1 Big 12, ND

2024 - 3 ACC, 6 SEC, 4 Big 10, 1 Big 12, 1 G5, ND

16 is not too many, what is wrong with you people? The offseason is endless, More football is better, plus it increases Tech’s odds of getting in someday. By the end of the season i believe the polls are pretty close, losses eliminate the worst of the bias

 

[forensicbuzz]

That will depend entirely on the courts. The National Labor Relations Board has already declared that Dartmouth basketball players are employees. They don't even receive an athletic scholarship since they are Ivy League.

The Board did not declare that, one guy on the Board made a unilateral call. Not the same.

 

[forensicbuzz]

That will depend entirely on the courts. The National Labor Relations Board has already declared that Dartmouth basketball players are employees. They don't even receive an athletic scholarship since they are Ivy League.

NCAA football and men's basketball has been run as a business for decades. Court decisions have been catching up to that in the last decade or so. I believe that under the legal and regulatory definition of an "independent contractor", they have control on when/how/etc to complete work. The company cannot directly dictate the workplace, hours, etc. Under that definition, student-athletes are not treated as independent contractors. They have to show up at the school's athletic facilities to practice at specific times. They have to show up at the school's athletic facilities to work out at certain times. If a school declares that student athletes are independent contractors, and a single student takes them to court, it seems pretty clear according to law/regulations that the student will win.

I may be wrong about the way they are wording the direct "NIL" payments, but I think they are being set up as payments for intellectual property. I think many coaches, and maybe some schools, will set them up as direct pay-for-play. Any student-athlete who is paid to perform sports activities, instead of for the broadcast rights of their name-image-likeness, could possibly file a court case to be declared an employee and be paid for violations of labor laws. I think they would likely win. Not based on what is right or what is wrong, but based on the actual laws and the actual way that NCAA sports are being run.

If the NCAA wants to be an actual amateur organization of academics entities whose students compete against each other in amateur athletic events, then they need to make drastic changes in the system. I think it is too late at this point. Anyone who believes that the athletes are the ones corrupting the system hasn't been paying attention to what has been happening for the last forty years. Schools, teams, ADs, coaches, boosters, TV, conferences have already corrupted sports. The athletes are only catching up to what NCAA athletics has already become.

My understanding is the money from the schools to the athletes will be a revenue sharing based on NIL. So, they won’t be employees.

 

[yeti92]

16 is not too many, what is wrong with you people? The offseason is endless, More football is better, plus it increases Tech’s odds of getting in someday. By the end of the season i believe the polls are pretty close, losses eliminate the worst of the bias

So you are a proponent of a 128 team playoff then?

16 teams the way you are proposing is too many. If you want to take the top 2 teams from the top 8 conferences, I'd be fine with it, but increasing the number of rounds decreases the odds a team like Tech can win a championship vs the factories that are 3 deep with 4/5 star talent.

I just showed you the data. Why on earth do you think the 5th, 6th, or 7th best team in a conference deserve a spot to compete for a national championship? Nonsense.

 

[RonJohn]

My understanding is the money from the schools to the athletes will be a revenue sharing based on NIL. So, they won’t be employees.

That is what they say. They also said that restricting an athlete's ability to transfer schools was legal and necessary to maintain the amateur aspect of the institution. Even though they said that, courts disagreed. With direct NIL payments, a court won't only be interested in what words are used to describe it, they will be interested in how they are operated in practice.

 

[roadkill]

That is what they say. They also said that restricting an athlete's ability to transfer schools was legal and necessary to maintain the amateur aspect of the institution. Even though they said that, courts disagreed. With direct NIL payments, a court won't only be interested in what words are used to describe it, they will be interested in how they are operated in practice.

This.
You can call a pig a silk purse but it's still a pig.
Just like companies trying to make an employee exempt by simply giving them an exempt title. The law doesn't work that way.

 

[billga99]

16 is not too many, what is wrong with you people? The offseason is endless, More football is better, plus it increases Tech’s odds of getting in someday. By the end of the season i believe the polls are pretty close, losses eliminate the worst of the bias

16 teams does not put anymore rounds in play than a 12 team playoff does. It would still be 4 games to win, round of 16, quarterfinals, semifinals, championship game. So 8 teams not getting a bye going all the way (which both Ohio St. and Notre Dame did by the way) required them to play 4 games. All the 16 would do (vs. 12) is require all of the teams to play 4 games to win a championship vs. giving 4 teams a bye. You could definitely argue 12 teams is too many but 16 teams vs. 12 teams doesn't make the season any longer.

 

[forensicbuzz]

That is what they say. They also said that restricting an athlete's ability to transfer schools was legal and necessary to maintain the amateur aspect of the institution. Even though they said that, courts disagreed. With direct NIL payments, a court won't only be interested in what words are used to describe it, they will be interested in how they are operated in practice.

That’s what you say. Doesn’t make it true. They will never be deemed employees of the university. Universities will divest themselves of their AA’s before they take that worker’s comp exposure. Don’t see that ever happening.

 

[LT 1967]

My understanding is the money from the schools to the athletes will be a revenue sharing based on NIL. So, they won’t be employees.

I don't pretend to know a lot this new world of paying football players. Many of the articles I read seem to be somewhat confusing particularly about Revenue Sharing versus NIL. Some articles seem to conflate the two sources of revenue. I saw a letter from UNC Athletic Director (Bubba Cunningham) to UNC donors which gives a pretty concise breakdown of the income possibilities for players. According to Cunningham the Revenue Sharing is distinct from the NIL opportunities. I have copied the key paragraphs below and show the link to the article at the bottom. The Revenue Share portion of the income will be delivered to the Athletes directly from the Athletic Department. NIL is separate and derived from outside sources (with approval from a National Clearing house).

Based on that, I suppose the Athletes would have to be paid based on Contract Labor or placed on the Athletic Department payroll.
Just as a non-lawyer, I assume Athletes will be paid on a Contract Labor basis to avoid being characterized as Employees.

From Cunningham's letter:

THE CHANGES
The House settlement, expected to gain final approval by U.S. District Court Judge Claudia Wilken in April 2025, will end three lawsuits that challenge NCAA rules about NIL and other payments to student-athletes. The proposed settlement would result in significant changes to the college athletics landscape, as well as the way we operate at Carolina, including:

Revenue Sharing: Institutions will be allowed to share revenue directly with student-athletes. The revenue share – derived from a percentage of average revenue from ticket sales, TV broadcasts and other commercial activity at schools in the top athletics conferences – is expected to start at approximately $20.5 million in 2025-26 and will increase over time. With a $130 million budget last year supporting 28 teams, we are working with the University, The Rams Club and other commercial enterprises to generate as many dollars as possible for revenue sharing. Currently, Football and Men's Basketball are the only sports at Carolina that generate more than they spend. We are still determining how to share revenue while being mindful that the success of those two teams is key to the success of all of our sports programs.

Roster Limits and Additional Scholarship Support: Previously, the NCAA did not limit roster sizes but did limit the number of scholarships that could be awarded in each sport. The settlement now places limits on team rosters with schools being able to provide as many scholarships as roster spots. Carolina currently offers the equivalent of 330 full scholarships to 530 of our approximately 850 student-athletes, thanks to the generosity of our Rams Club donors. While the new roster limits will decrease our total number of varsity student-athletes to a maximum of 735, we are committed to offering more opportunities to student-athletes by increasing the number of scholarships available. The Rams Club Scholarship Endowment will continue to be a great resource in funding athletics scholarships.

Past Damages: The NCAA will pay approximately $2.8 billion to student-athletes who participated from 2016 to 2024 and were not allowed to participate in NIL activities due to NCAA rules. The NCAA will fund this payout by withholding revenue distribution to schools over 10 years. The impact will cost Carolina roughly $1-2 million dollars annually via that reduced distribution.

NIL Opportunities: In addition to revenue share payments, student-athletes still will be able to benefit from their NIL opportunities from third parties, subject to new rules in the settlement – including a national clearinghouse to analyze deals over $600 dollars in order to monitor and enforce the legitimacy of NIL opportunities. This structure should provide better transparency and help to level the playing field in recruiting. It could also mean a change in structure of the collectives supporting student-athletes after this academic year. We fully support the efforts of NCHOF and Old Well Management and ask that you continue to support Carolina NIL through those organizations.

Cunningham: Changes In College Athletics – And The Impact On Carolina - University of North Carolina Athletics

Carolina Director of Athletics Bubba Cunningham shared this message on Wednesday morning.

goheels.com

 

[GT33]

16 teams does not put anymore rounds in play than a 12 team playoff does. It would still be 4 games to win, round of 16, quarterfinals, semifinals, championship game. So 8 teams not getting a bye going all the way (which both Ohio St. and Notre Dame did by the way) required them to play 4 games. All the 16 would do (vs. 12) is require all of the teams to play 4 games to win a championship vs. giving 4 teams a bye. You could definitely argue 12 teams is too many but 16 teams vs. 12 teams doesn't make the season any longer.

You could easily have 24 teams & 8 teams get a bye in Week 1- All Conf champs and 4 at-larges from P5 & runner ups. The teams that get "screwed" that think they're Top 8 all get a home game in Rd 1, yeah it's not a bye but they get to play at home.

This year I'm sure Miami (#16) thought they could win it, maybe even that ******* from Cuse (#20)? Betcha Bama (#17), SCe (#19) and Ole Miss (#11) thought they should get a shot. BYU (#13) would sure have loved an opportunity. Illinois was (#16) and left out. Iowa St (#15) fans I'm sure would have loved to settle it on the field. There's 4 or 5 other teams down there not so deserving, but they'd atleast get a road game to exted their season.

What's so awful about 24 teams? It's 1 more week of football and some potential interesting match ups, what's not good about that?Some teams like GT lost their star players for 2-3 games & got automatically excluded because of losses caused by injuries, but now those players are back & they're dangerous.

Majority of schools are a complete joke now anyway, the players are not loyal to their alma mater or really maintain NCAA eligibility by making progress towards a degree. That perckerwood from the cesspool was in college for 8 years and didn't even get an AA. No NCAA sanctions or even negative press coverage. The players are jumping from deal to deal. We might as well get some entertainment out of this mess by getting GT a chance every couple years.

 

[stinger78]

That’s what you say. Doesn’t make it true. They will never be deemed employees of the university. Universities will divest themselves of their AA’s before they take that worker’s comp exposure. Don’t see that ever happening.

This. The injury risk is too large. The schools cannot allow this to get to that point.

 

[Richard7125]

You could easily have 24 teams & 8 teams get a bye in Week 1- All Conf champs and 4 at-larges from P5 & runner ups. The teams that get "screwed" that think they're Top 8 all get a home game in Rd 1, yeah it's not a bye but they get to play at home.

This year I'm sure Miami (#16) thought they could win it, maybe even that ******* from Cuse (#20)? Betcha Bama (#17), SCe (#19) and Ole Miss (#11) thought they should get a shot. BYU (#13) would sure have loved an opportunity. Illinois was (#16) and left out. Iowa St (#15) fans I'm sure would have loved to settle it on the field. There's 4 or 5 other teams down there not so deserving, but they'd atleast get a road game to exted their season.

What's so awful about 24 teams? It's 1 more week of football and some potential interesting match ups, what's not good about that?Some teams like GT lost their star players for 2-3 games & got automatically excluded because of losses caused by injuries, but now those players are back & they're dangerous.

Majority of schools are a complete joke now anyway, the players are not loyal to their alma mater or really maintain NCAA eligibility by making progress towards a degree. That perckerwood from the cesspool was in college for 8 years and didn't even get an AA. No NCAA sanctions or even negative press coverage. The players are jumping from deal to deal. We might as well get some entertainment out of this mess by getting GT a chance every couple years.

I prefer 12 teams. I like 4 games the first week of the playoffs with 4 teams getting a bye. For the most part 12 teams will ensure you’re including teams good enough to win, but not including teams for participation purposes. I could be convinced going to 14 and/or 16 teams, but you’re really just adding teams that have no chance. Again, I’m not for participation trophies.

I think most believe there are too many bowl games. We don’t need to replace crappy bowl games with crappy playoff games.

 

[UgaBlows]

16 teams does not put anymore rounds in play than a 12 team playoff does. It would still be 4 games to win, round of 16, quarterfinals, semifinals, championship game. So 8 teams not getting a bye going all the way (which both Ohio St. and Notre Dame did by the way) required them to play 4 games. All the 16 would do (vs. 12) is require all of the teams to play 4 games to win a championship vs. giving 4 teams a bye. You could definitely argue 12 teams is too many but 16 teams vs. 12 teams doesn't make the season any longer.

But there are more games right? Who cares if there are no bye’s? Yall might as well get used to this, they definitely going to expand it.

 

[Richard7125]

But there are more games right? Who cares if there are no bye’s? Yall might as well get used to this, they definitely going to expand it.

No doubt.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

The playoffs are going to go well past 24 at some point in the not to distant future so all this back and forth is for nothing. It wasn’t that long ago we were arguing about a 2 team BCS.

The way to grow a sport is to allow more fanbases opportunities for success. This past season was awesome in that a lot of fanbases were engaged well into November.

Im looking forward to the next expansion and then I’ll be looking forward to the next. At some point I hope to be alive to see GT host a playoff game at Bobby Dodd.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I don't pretend to know a lot this new world of paying football players. Many of the articles I read seem to be somewhat confusing particularly about Revenue Sharing versus NIL. Some articles seem to conflate the two sources of revenue. I saw a letter from UNC Athletic Director (Bubba Cunningham) to UNC donors which gives a pretty concise breakdown of the income possibilities for players. According to Cunningham the Revenue Sharing is distinct from the NIL opportunities. I have copied the key paragraphs below and show the link to the article at the bottom. The Revenue Share portion of the income will be delivered to the Athletes directly from the Athletic Department. NIL is separate and derived from outside sources (with approval from a National Clearing house).

Based on that, I suppose the Athletes would have to be paid based on Contract Labor or placed on the Athletic Department payroll.
Just as a non-lawyer, I assume Athletes will be paid on a Contract Labor basis to avoid being characterized as Employees.

From Cunningham's letter:

THE CHANGES
The House settlement, expected to gain final approval by U.S. District Court Judge Claudia Wilken in April 2025, will end three lawsuits that challenge NCAA rules about NIL and other payments to student-athletes. The proposed settlement would result in significant changes to the college athletics landscape, as well as the way we operate at Carolina, including:

Revenue Sharing: Institutions will be allowed to share revenue directly with student-athletes. The revenue share – derived from a percentage of average revenue from ticket sales, TV broadcasts and other commercial activity at schools in the top athletics conferences – is expected to start at approximately $20.5 million in 2025-26 and will increase over time. With a $130 million budget last year supporting 28 teams, we are working with the University, The Rams Club and other commercial enterprises to generate as many dollars as possible for revenue sharing. Currently, Football and Men's Basketball are the only sports at Carolina that generate more than they spend. We are still determining how to share revenue while being mindful that the success of those two teams is key to the success of all of our sports programs.

Roster Limits and Additional Scholarship Support: Previously, the NCAA did not limit roster sizes but did limit the number of scholarships that could be awarded in each sport. The settlement now places limits on team rosters with schools being able to provide as many scholarships as roster spots. Carolina currently offers the equivalent of 330 full scholarships to 530 of our approximately 850 student-athletes, thanks to the generosity of our Rams Club donors. While the new roster limits will decrease our total number of varsity student-athletes to a maximum of 735, we are committed to offering more opportunities to student-athletes by increasing the number of scholarships available. The Rams Club Scholarship Endowment will continue to be a great resource in funding athletics scholarships.

Past Damages: The NCAA will pay approximately $2.8 billion to student-athletes who participated from 2016 to 2024 and were not allowed to participate in NIL activities due to NCAA rules. The NCAA will fund this payout by withholding revenue distribution to schools over 10 years. The impact will cost Carolina roughly $1-2 million dollars annually via that reduced distribution.

NIL Opportunities: In addition to revenue share payments, student-athletes still will be able to benefit from their NIL opportunities from third parties, subject to new rules in the settlement – including a national clearinghouse to analyze deals over $600 dollars in order to monitor and enforce the legitimacy of NIL opportunities. This structure should provide better transparency and help to level the playing field in recruiting. It could also mean a change in structure of the collectives supporting student-athletes after this academic year. We fully support the efforts of NCHOF and Old Well Management and ask that you continue to support Carolina NIL through those organizations.

Cunningham: Changes In College Athletics – And The Impact On Carolina - University of North Carolina Athletics

Carolina Director of Athletics Bubba Cunningham shared this message on Wednesday morning.

goheels.com

the revenue cost sharing is part of the NIL. The reason these students are being afforded the opportunity for revenue sharing is because their name, image, likeness is being used as part of the TV contracts. So, they get a cut of that for their NIL. On top of that, outside collectives and other organizations are allowed to contract directly with the players in compensation for their name, image, and/or likeness. Two separate entities compensating both for their NIL. UNC is using two different terms for the same use of NIL. One is from the school for the TV contract, one is from collectives for everything outside the TV contract.