Building the Offensive Line

[Jmonty71]

Here's a nice piece of info on Chip Long and TEs:

4 of the TE's Long coached at ND went on to play in the NFL.

In addition, Ian Book who was a 3 star recruit, was developed into an NFL QB under Long and is now playing for the New Orleans Saints. In 2019, after Book left ND, Jack Coan passed for over 3000 yards with 25 TDs (only 6 INTs). In 2016 at Memphis, Riley Ferguson's first year starting at Memphis, he passed for almost 3700 yards with 32 TDs (against 10 Ints). It was Long's only season at Memphis. I think our QBs should be excited about Long. Long will have two 4 star QBs to groom at GT.

I think you can say that Long can develop talent on offense. There's talent on our offense for Long to be successful. This was a very good hire for CGC. Now let Long coach the offense, and CGC can focus on the defense.

The flip side to this? Any good O-line can make a 3 star QB look good, while a crappy O-line can make the highest rated 5 star QB, look like trash. So, while I do get where you are going, having 2 4 star QBs doesn't matter, if we cannot block for them. Things I would LIKE to see. Pass progression. A line that can block for more than 3 seconds, if that... A O line that can actually win the battle of LOS. Lastly, better play calling... I said this many times. If I can guess what play we're going to run 80% of the time, you can believe the other team's coaches can and do it better.

 

[Techster]

The flip side to this? Any good O-line can make a 3 star QB look good, while a crappy O-line can make the highest rated 5 star QB, look like trash. So, while I do get where you are going, having 2 4 star QBs doesn't matter, if we cannot block for them. Things I would LIKE to see. Pass progression. A line that can block for more than 3 seconds, if that... A O line that can actually win the battle of LOS. Lastly, better play calling... I said this many times. If I can guess what play we're going to run 80% of the time, you can believe the other team's coaches can and do it better.

What you're saying is why Patenaude is no longer our OC, and Chip Long was brought in. We'll see how it goes next season.

 

[chewybaka]

Depth has been a problem at GT for as long as I have been a fan. No coach has made it better and no coach has made it worse. IIWII

Ross had depth and diversity on both OL and DL

 

[Jmonty71]

Here's a nice piece of info on Chip Long and TEs:

4 of the TE's Long coached at ND went on to play in the NFL.

In addition, Ian Book who was a 3 star recruit, was developed into an NFL QB under Long and is now playing for the New Orleans Saints. In 2019, after Book left ND, Jack Coan passed for over 3000 yards with 25 TDs (only 6 INTs). In 2016 at Memphis, Riley Ferguson's first year starting at Memphis, he passed for almost 3700 yards with 32 TDs (against 10 Ints). It was Long's only season at Memphis. I think our QBs should be excited about Long. Long will have two 4 star QBs to groom at GT.

I think you can say that Long can develop talent on offense. There's talent on our offense for Long to be successful. This was a very good hire for CGC. Now let Long coach the offense, and CGC can focus on the defense.

What you're saying is why Patenaude is no longer our OC, and Chip Long was brought in. We'll see how it goes next season.

You are correct. We have a new variable. P'naude had a poor (at best) blocking scheme. Perhaps he had plays in his head, that worked. Or possibly they worked, while he played Madden football. Either way, when they were applied, they failed. Long seems to have that knowledge. That alone, should...key word...SHOULD...make a difference. However; I don't expect a miracle and see us in a bowl, next year. I think that expectation is a bit too high. However; asking for 5 wins isn't... Not with the schedule that we have.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I wonder how good of a job the staff is doing on evaluating OL talent and/or coaching them up. If you look at top teams they often have underclassmen as starters and backups. This were the rosters at the start of 2021(I realized they were not current after I pulled the data....) I literally just pulled teams of varying reputations and results. Bama had 40% of players 2 years or younger but were had much older players other than those 4.

uga - 2 Sr, 1 Jr, 1 RS Fr, 1 RS Soph, bench = 2 RS Jr, 2 RS Fr, and 1 Fr. So 40% of players that are 2 years or younger,
FSU - 2 Grad transfers, 3 RS Fr. bench = 2 RS Sr, 1 RS Jr, 2 RS Fesh - 50% of players 2 years or younger
VT - 2 RS Jr, 1 RS Sofph, 2 Fr bench = 2 Grad Transfer, 1 Grad, 1 So, 1 Fr - 40% of players 2 years or younger
Cuse - 1 RS Sr, 1 RS Jr, 1 RS So, 1 So, 1 Fr, bench = 1 RS Jr, 1 RS So, 1 So, 2 Fr - 40 % of players 2 years or younger
GT - 2 Grad Transfer, 1 RS Jr, 2 FR bench = 1 Grad transfer, 2 RS Jr, 2 Fr. - 40% of players are 2 yeas or younger

I am sure if you look across a lotf teams many have a similar amount of youth across their lines.

One other thing is that I don't think our OL is as undersized as people think. If you take the average weight of all of the OL on the current roster you are at 310 lbs. I believe our starters this year were around 315.

Yeah, now go look at where those kids playing early for uga and bama were ranked. BTW, FSU, VT, Cuse were not great OL's this year, and we're not recruiting like FSU. One other point...our upperclassmen were also learning a new offense with a totally different technique the Year1 with essentially no practice time Year2. So, those young guys didn't necessarily have seasoned veterans in the offense there to help them along and cover for them when the young guys screwed up.

I'm not defending our poor OL performance. I'm just saying it's not really apples to apples comparison like you're portraying. We also should have seen better performance from what we have.

 

[WrongShadeOfGold]

You have to factor in "strikeout" rate, and development time. Not every WR or RB is ready to play right away, and some just plain aren't good enough to play at this level. Dontae Smith isn't the player he was under CPJ as he was under Choice. It took a few years of development. Malachi Carter and Adonicas Sanders always had the ability, but took some time to develop as well. The same issues we have at OL we have at other positions as well...it's just not as glaring.

Then you have guys who are here for a year or two and transfer out. Transfers will be a BIG disruption in roster management for all teams now.

Totally agree with what you're saying. Just wanted to add, a good offensive line can make WRs and RBs better. A good WR or RB cannot make an offensive line better. If it is up to me on taking an 8th or 9th WR/RB or an extra lineman or two, I'm going lineman all day long. Would be an interesting recruiting strategy to try out, take an obscenely large number of lineman each year instead of skill positions then you could supplement the skill positions with transfer portal. Kinda the opposite of what we are doing now.

 

[Techster]

You are correct. We have a new variable. P'naude had a poor (at best) blocking scheme. Perhaps he had plays in his head, that worked. Or possibly they worked, while he played Madden football. Either way, when they were applied, they failed. Long seems to have that knowledge. That alone, should...key word...SHOULD...make a difference. However; I don't expect a miracle and see us in a bowl, next year. I think that expectation is a bit too high. However; asking for 5 wins isn't... Not with the schedule that we have.

Patenaude actually wasn't bad. If you go back and watch the tape, you'll see we had guys open running through the secondary. Our QBs either didn't see them, or threw bad balls. I actually thought our OL pass pro wasn't that bad...not where you want it, but not as bad as we think. If you watch the tape, you'll also see a LOT of frustrated open receivers because they knew they had their defender beat but our QB (Sims AND Yates) either didn't see them at all, or just plain threw a really bad ball.

If you look at Peyton Manning's career, he really didn't have the best pass pro either...hence why he had those neck issues throughout his career. However, he knew where he was going with the ball before the snap based on where the coverage rotated, and he got the ball out of his hands accurately before the pass rush could get to him. Asking that of Sims is probably not realistic, BUT, you can minimize bad OL play by coaching up your QB.

We'll see how Long does with Sims and our pass pro (and run blocking). IMO, one thing we REALLY need to do more is utilize Sims's ability to do damage with his legs. Look at the UNC game...EVERYTHING opens up for our offense when Sims is a threat running the ball.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Patenaude actually wasn't bad. If you go back and watch the tape, you'll see we had guys open running through the secondary. Our QBs either didn't see them, or threw bad balls. I actually thought our OL pass pro wasn't that bad...not where you want it, but not as bad as we think. If you watch the tape, you'll also see a LOT of frustrated open receivers because they knew they had their defender beat but our QB (Sims AND Yates) either didn't see them at all, or just plain threw a really bad ball.

If you look at Peyton Manning's career, he really didn't have the best pass pro either...hence why he had those neck issues throughout his career. However, he knew where he was going with the ball before the snap based on where the coverage rotated, and he got the ball out of his hands accurately before the pass rush could get to him. Asking that of Sims is probably not realistic, BUT, you can minimize bad OL play by coaching up your QB.

We'll see how Long does with Sims and our pass pro (and run blocking). IMO, one thing we REALLY need to do more is utilize Sims's ability to do damage with his legs. Look at the UNC game...EVERYTHING opens up for our offense when Sims is a threat running the ball.

It's hard when your QB's are young, but I'm not sure I agree with your opening sentence. You might be right, but you might also be wrong. Wasn't Patenaude also the QB coach? Wouldn't some of the things you're talking about come from the QB coach to the QB? I realize they're young, but the OC, who's also the QB coach, should be calling the plays and teaching these kids where to throw to be successful, especially early on while they're young and inexperienced.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

These problems that we are describing with our OL are like a yearly broken record. The only year in recent memory is 2014 where we have had consistent season long OL play. Every year the same refrain - injuries, defections, youth, no depth.......We used to blame Sewak, I think with good reason. They recruited too many projects, that never saw the field. Key's margin for error has been reduced since he came from Alabama. The talent they consistently recruit at Bama enabled them to build depth over the years- plug and play. This year and next should tell the tale for our OL. IMO, Key has worked VERY hard to recruit the best players he could, given his new circumstance. But now his skill at teaching is being tested like never before.

OL play has been an issue for as long as I can remember. Carson teams, other than in 1970, were plagued with nagging injuries and players not being full strength. Rodgers had a couple of years where his offensive line was as good as anyone but struggled the rest of the time. I could go through every coach and see years where we were below average. When CPJ took us to the Orange Bowl the first year Iowa completely dominated an OL filled with Gailey recruits and our best player was a walk on center. LSU had their way with us also.

The only year we had a great OL that was as good as any in the country was 2014. That line could hold its own against anyone in the country.

If anyone has an answer I am all ears.

 

[chewybaka]

OL play has been an issue for as long as I can remember. Carson teams, other than in 1970, were plagued with nagging injuries and players not being full strength. Rodgers had a couple of years where his offensive line was as good as anyone but struggled the rest of the time. I could go through every coach and see years where we were below average. When CPJ took us to the Orange Bowl the first year Iowa completely dominated an OL filled with Gailey recruits and our best player was a walk on center. LSU had their way with us also.

The only year we had a great OL that was as good as any in the country was 2014. That line could hold its own against anyone in the country.

If anyone has an answer I am all ears.

Bobby Ross...1990 OL talented and deep from recruiting and transfers from Syracuse and Navy

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Bobby Ross...1990 OL talented and deep from recruiting and transfers from Syracuse and Navy

Yep. Glaring omission on my part

 

[stinger 1957]

It could be Sims is not our QB going fwd, he may be missing the mental/vision part of it all as a QB. Hopefully that's what Weinke and our OC are good at determining, who can win for us at QB.
I agree with someone above, we had receivers open and QBs never found them or just threw it in the ground, threw it late, no anticipation.

 

[JacketFan137]

Patenaude actually wasn't bad. If you go back and watch the tape, you'll see we had guys open running through the secondary. Our QBs either didn't see them, or threw bad balls. I actually thought our OL pass pro wasn't that bad...not where you want it, but not as bad as we think. If you watch the tape, you'll also see a LOT of frustrated open receivers because they knew they had their defender beat but our QB (Sims AND Yates) either didn't see them at all, or just plain threw a really bad ball.

If you look at Peyton Manning's career, he really didn't have the best pass pro either...hence why he had those neck issues throughout his career. However, he knew where he was going with the ball before the snap based on where the coverage rotated, and he got the ball out of his hands accurately before the pass rush could get to him. Asking that of Sims is probably not realistic, BUT, you can minimize bad OL play by coaching up your QB.

We'll see how Long does with Sims and our pass pro (and run blocking). IMO, one thing we REALLY need to do more is utilize Sims's ability to do damage with his legs. Look at the UNC game...EVERYTHING opens up for our offense when Sims is a threat running the ball.

i don’t think the scenario you described about WRs is near as common as you make it out to be in this post. when i watched the film it happened some times but it felt like more often than not the right side of the o line was getting so blown up every single play there wasn’t really a chance for plays to develop. our WRs are currently not great separators running routes

i also think our passing plays were designed so poorly. too often we had WRs running to the same spots and that doesn’t really make the defense work

 

[forensicbuzz]

It could be Sims is not our QB going fwd, he may be missing the mental/vision part of it all as a QB. Hopefully that's what Weinke and our OC are good at determining, who can win for us at QB.
I agree with someone above, we had receivers open and QBs never found them or just threw it in the ground, threw it late, no anticipation.

This jumped out to me. That should be teachable.

 

[billga99]

It could be Sims is not our QB going fwd, he may be missing the mental/vision part of it all as a QB. Hopefully that's what Weinke and our OC are good at determining, who can win for us at QB.
I agree with someone above, we had receivers open and QBs never found them or just threw it in the ground, threw it late, no anticipation.

I think Yates was better with progression but not as talented throwing the ball. Sims seem to struggle to go off of his primary receiver. But in both their cases in many circumstances they had very little time to make a decision. I do think getting slightly more time from the OL and having a QB coach provide insight into how to quickly read the defense and understand which progressions the QB needs to look at is important. By the way, getting better at both calling and reading the RPO will also slow down a pass rush. Sims is a very good runner but mostly seemed to run in a scramble situation versus RPO. Way too often, it was handed it to Gibbs up the middle which got shutdown the majority of the time.

 

[JacketFan137]

I think Yates was better with progression but not as talented throwing the ball. Sims seem to struggle to go off of his primary receiver. But in both their cases in many circumstances they had very little time to make a decision. I do think getting slightly more time from the OL and having a QB coach provide insight into how to quickly read the defense and understand which progressions the QB needs to look at is important. By the way, getting better at both calling and reading the RPO will also slow down a pass rush. Sims is a very good runner but mostly seemed to run in a scramble situation versus RPO. Way too often, it was handed it to Gibbs up the middle which got shutdown the majority of the time.

progressions, while important typically aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things as most of the offenses are pretty much 1 read in college and even at the pro level it’s a lot more 1 read than people realize

 

[forensicbuzz]

progressions, while important typically aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things as most of the offenses are pretty much 1 read in college and even at the pro level it’s a lot more 1 read than people realize

2 reads and an outlet is what I've always read about college norms. I think some offenses are more complicated now and may have more. But that's going to depend on QB, OL, and WR/TE/RB.

I think CPJ had 4 reads and an outlet.

 

[JacketFan137]

2 reads and an outlet is what I've always read about college norms. I think some offenses are more complicated now and may have more. But that's going to depend on QB, OL, and WR/TE/RB.

I think CPJ had 4 reads and an outlet.

cpj’s passing offense was easy if you had enough time cause the corners were so shocked we were passing jk haha

but yeah in all seriousness i think “progressions” are highly overrated and you typically hear about even the top qbs getting drafted being “one read” QBs.

i think the o line is simply the quickest fix to getting the offense right. we have to win up front to run then create the play action. we couldn’t even run play action because that took too much time. also think our QBs had happy feet last year when they actually did have enough time

i will say somehow sims had some of the lowest sack yards in the league. even prior to the uga and notre dame games he had a lower sack yardage than yates. his elusiveness was really underrated

 

[alagold]

The key to good Off is the OL.They have GOT to be able to either do well on runs or passing. (you can use a quick pass like a run). Sims is ok but is made worse with bad blocking.The new OC MUST come up with a new plan to accenuate the skills we have.. (good luck with that with arguably the best RB,OLman , and WR gone.)

 

[forensicbuzz]

cpj’s passing offense was easy if you had enough time cause the corners were so shocked we were passing jk haha

but yeah in all seriousness i think “progressions” are highly overrated and you typically hear about even the top qbs getting drafted being “one read” QBs.

i think the o line is simply the quickest fix to getting the offense right. we have to win up front to run then create the play action. we couldn’t even run play action because that took too much time. also think our QBs had happy feet last year when they actually did have enough time

i will say somehow sims had some of the lowest sack yards in the league. even prior to the uga and notre dame games he had a lower sack yardage than yates. his elusiveness was really underrated

I've heard it "look left, look right, dump"