Building the Offensive Line

[Randy Carson]

Happy New Year, everyone!

I'm just thinking out loud here, and I'm not a football guru...just a loyal fan. Based on my very limited knowledge and what I've read in this forum, it's my impression that in order for Tech to become successful again, we need to do the following in this sequence:

1. Get BIG on the Offensive Line immediately (which is pure recruiting and transfer portal),
2. Get BIG and OLD on the offensive line (which only time and the transfer portal can accomplish), and
3. Get BIG and OLD and QUICK on the offensive line (which will require winning since the quick big men will have lots of offers to choose from).

In the short run, Tech will probably have to settle for big, SLOW lineman that the factories have decided to pass on. FWIW, I wouldn't get too fancy with the blocking schemes - I'd focus on basics, discipline (no penalties & clear understanding of assignments) and consistency.

In the intermediate, I'd put these guys in the S&C program and get them bigger, stronger and OLDER (experienced) as Juniors and Seniors.

Then, once this begins to pay dividends in the win column, we can attract some four-stars who also have QUICKS and speed.

Further, if I was a hot high school prospect, I'd want to play where I could be developed for the NFL. So, maybe spending some money hiring the best Line coach(es) we can possibly afford would help attract talent.

A final thought: I'd guess that most high schools have small-ish backs with blazing speed who can hit the holes and get outside as well as undersized quarterbacks who can run and/or get the ball to a receiver. They don't have to be Heisman candidates; they just have to be able to read the defense and hit an open receiver 5-15 yards downfield consistently.

So, if we have a big O-Line that can open holes and protect the pocket, even average "skill" players should be successful enough to win some games in our conference.

Am I right or wrong?

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

You are absolutely correct. The offensive line is the most important position group of any football team even if the QB is the most important individual position. The OLine is the motor of the team. The issue we are having is the execution of your plan.

 

[takethepoints]

Yeah, you're right. Problem = all of our competitors have similar goals and a head start. Also, imho, our OL recruiting, even through the portal, has not been stellar so far. Our "good" OLs tend to be about average. Key and co. would miss - and probably have - a Shaq Mason too easily and no Shamire has shown up yet..

 

[TromboneJacket]

Brent Key is probably the best OL coach we can get, so we’re already covered on that point. I think he’s been doing his best to build the line, but he arrived too late in the recruiting cycle to get anyone he liked in 2019, and then it seems that it was harder to recruit OL to Tech than he thought, so he tried to get a bunch of guys in 2020, most of whom were pretty raw. I think we have guys with good potential, but it takes time to develop young linemen. We’ve been trying to use the portal to mitigate the youth and attrition, and it’s helped a little bit, but not enough to make the O-line good. We’ve also lost a couple CPJ guys who probably would have helped us. Braun probably would have made a huge difference in 2019, and Quinney and Defoor likely would have given us more stability last year. I expect us to be a little better next year, but the skill position players will have to bring their A-game to take pressure off the OL, and Chip Long will need to tailor his game plans to emphasize our strengths and mitigate our weaknesses, namely avoiding leaning on the OL.

 

[jacketup]

Happy New Year, everyone!

I'm just thinking out loud here, and I'm not a football guru...just a loyal fan. Based on my very limited knowledge and what I've read in this forum, it's my impression that in order for Tech to become successful again, we need to do the following in this sequence:

1. Get BIG on the Offensive Line immediately (which is pure recruiting and transfer portal),
2. Get BIG and OLD on the offensive line (which only time and the transfer portal can accomplish), and
3. Get BIG and OLD and QUICK on the offensive line (which will require winning since the quick big men will have lots of offers to choose from).

In the short run, Tech will probably have to settle for big, SLOW lineman that the factories have decided to pass on. FWIW, I wouldn't get too fancy with the blocking schemes - I'd focus on basics, discipline (no penalties & clear understanding of assignments) and consistency.

In the intermediate, I'd put these guys in the S&C program and get them bigger, stronger and OLDER (experienced) as Juniors and Seniors.

Then, once this begins to pay dividends in the win column, we can attract some four-stars who also have QUICKS and speed.

Further, if I was a hot high school prospect, I'd want to play where I could be developed for the NFL. So, maybe spending some money hiring the best Line coach(es) we can possibly afford would help attract talent.

A final thought: I'd guess that most high schools have small-ish backs with blazing speed who can hit the holes and get outside as well as undersized quarterbacks who can run and/or get the ball to a receiver. They don't have to be Heisman candidates; they just have to be able to read the defense and hit an open receiver 5-15 yards downfield consistently.

So, if we have a big O-Line that can open holes and protect the pocket, even average "skill" players should be successful enough to win some games in our conference.

Am I right or wrong?

You are correct. We need to be 2 deep with 3rd, 4th and 5th year OL players, and we haven't been there the past 3 years. The subsequent comments are correct that we are behind the curve.

There are enough running backs for most schools to have quality RBs with depth, and those guys can play as Fr and Soph. There are not enough OL and DTs to go around, which is why Texas is paying $50k for OL. How many really athletic 6'5" 300 lb HS kids are there? You play 5 at a time on O and you need 4 ready to go on D for rotation, so not enough to go around. TE is similar, which is why Texas is paying $10K/yr for them.

Yesterday I looked at the depth chart for the Pitt game in 2018. Our biggest starting lineman weighed 287, which was Lee at C. On most squads, the C is the smallest guy. This is the hole this staff inherited. With only the third OL recruiting class for this staff coming in this year, it's the curve we are behind. Hopefully Tchio and Quick will be able to hit the ground running. I believe each has 3 years eligibility left. It will probably be 2023 before we are anywhere near stable at OL and DT. People need to understand this and give Collins, Key, Long and whoever the DC is going to be time to get there.

 

[stech81]

Even teams with a good offensive line have holes once in a while, The problem we had so many holes we had to start over and building a wall from the start. And we have only had 2 recruiting classes to start building the OL 2020 and 2021.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

One of the things that hindered CPJ was that a rash of injuries on the offensive line can not only crash your season but set you back a couple of years with building cohesion and continuity with your line. CGC faces the same challenge. What some are hoping for is enough quality recruits to build depth. Even Gailey had trouble recruiting enough quality to make the line injury proof. This has always been a special Tech challenge.

 

[4shotB]

You are correct. We need to be 2 deep with 3rd, 4th and 5th year OL players, and we haven't been there the past 3 years. The subsequent comments are correct that we are behind the curve.

I don't honestly ever know if we have seen what you describe in the modern era. It seems we do well to have 5 quality starters with just one or two serviceable backups who have to play multiple spots in relief. I sincerely hope we get their. I think if we had a line equivalent to the '90 line and Gibbs, the general perception of our recently fired OC would be greatly different.

 

[iceeater1969]

Technology!
Give me a few weeks after new year.
Son hs coached a kid who went on to play ol for 5 nfl teams over 10 years.
He had a weight problem like Sham except he was fatter (425 walok on rt for panthers ) . At mid point of career he was still w also ran nfl teams . Eating right and excercise got him to a fat 360 . He got moved to guard and did well w titans.
At that time i tried to share w Sewak for Sham.
At this time i think getting really heavy guys is a possible source of talent, but has a lot of people parts.

2 of the last 3 teams where he played were perinial champs. They had the ol do heavily coached and graded drills of their blockjng schemes ( base, help, blitz, etc). The main thing was SAVE the qb.

By the way - as he finished his career he was down 100 lbs, because the game was that much faster.



After new year he is checking the name of the ol drill system.

 

[chewybaka]

You are correct. We need to be 2 deep with 3rd, 4th and 5th year OL players, and we haven't been there the past 3 years. The subsequent comments are correct that we are behind the curve.

There are enough running backs for most schools to have quality RBs with depth, and those guys can play as Fr and Soph. There are not enough OL and DTs to go around, which is why Texas is paying $50k for OL. How many really athletic 6'5" 300 lb HS kids are there? You play 5 at a time on O and you need 4 ready to go on D for rotation, so not enough to go around. TE is similar, which is why Texas is paying $10K/yr for them.

Yesterday I looked at the depth chart for the Pitt game in 2018. Our biggest starting lineman weighed 287, which was Lee at C. On most squads, the C is the smallest guy. This is the hole this staff inherited. With only the third OL recruiting class for this staff coming in this year, it's the curve we are behind. Hopefully Tchio and Quick will be able to hit the ground running. I believe each has 3 years eligibility left. It will probably be 2023 before we are anywhere near stable at OL and DT. People need to understand this and give Collins, Key, Long and whoever the DC is going to be time to get there.

We should nurture a high tech S&C program to groom OL folk over 4 years… Kent Hill was recruited as a wide receiver and thru weight training and conditioning resulted in an NFL career as an OL standout…in my mind the investment over time is the only way for GT to compete with factories….2013 Stanford with Harbaugh and recently Utah…
PS CGC needs a roster reboot next year so this will have to be on the back burner

 

[augustabuzz]

We should nurture a high tech S&C program to groom OL folk over 4 years… Kent Hill was recruited as a wide receiver and thru weight training and conditioning resulted in an NFL career as an OL standout…in my mind the investment over time is the only way for GT to compete with factories….2013 Stanford with Harbaugh and recently Utah…
PS CGC needs a roster reboot next year so this will have to be on the back burner

We did not recruit Kent for wr.

 

[griffin mizell]

We should nurture a high tech S&C program to groom OL folk over 4 years… Kent Hill was recruited as a wide receiver and thru weight training and conditioning resulted in an NFL career as an OL standout…in my mind the investment over time is the only way for GT to compete with factories….2013 Stanford with Harbaugh and recently Utah…
PS CGC needs a roster reboot next year so this will have to be on the back burner

Tight end

 

[cthenrys]

Brent Key is probably the best OL coach we can get, so we’re already covered on that point. I think he’s been doing his best to build the line, but he arrived too late in the recruiting cycle to get anyone he liked in 2019, and then it seems that it was harder to recruit OL to Tech than he thought, so he tried to get a bunch of guys in 2020, most of whom were pretty raw. I think we have guys with good potential, but it takes time to develop young linemen. We’ve been trying to use the portal to mitigate the youth and attrition, and it’s helped a little bit, but not enough to make the O-line good. We’ve also lost a couple CPJ guys who probably would have helped us. Braun probably would have made a huge difference in 2019, and Quinney and Defoor likely would have given us more stability last year. I expect us to be a little better next year, but the skill position players will have to bring their A-game to take pressure off the OL, and Chip Long will need to tailor his game plans to emphasize our strengths and mitigate our weaknesses, namely avoiding leaning on the OL.

Like everyone I was excited to get Key and was relieved when he resisted the call to leave last year. However, setting aside any debate about what talent was left and how well CGC ha recruited (in my opinion recruiting of OL hasn’t really been great), shouldnt the OL be at least a little better in year 3 ? I get that we’ve had injuries and we’ve struggled to get a consistent unit on the field, but can someone show me any evidence that the OL has improved because I don’t see it. We’ve wrapped year 3 (and yes, 2020 did in fact happen…).

 

[TromboneJacket]

Like everyone I was excited to get Key and was relieved when he resisted the call to leave last year. However, setting aside any debate about what talent was left and how well CGC ha recruited (in my opinion recruiting of OL hasn’t really been great), shouldnt the OL be at least a little better in year 3 ? I get that we’ve had injuries and we’ve struggled to get a consistent unit on the field, but can someone show me any evidence that the OL has improved because I don’t see it. We’ve wrapped year 3 (and yes, 2020 did in fact happen…).

I’ve seen great improvement in Minihan. It’s tough to evaluate the coaching in general because our starting lineup has been a revolving door for the most part. If Quinney had stayed, he would have been a good barometer too. I’d like to say something about Jordan Williams, but he was out for a decent amount of time iirc.

 

[slugboy]

We've had a lot of debate on this topic. A common argument is that Collins needed to recruit a new offensive line and that he couldn't really use the players that Johnson had recruited. I'm not saying that's true, but let's pull up the time machine and take a look back.

If I were a coach and felt that I had to make a complete transition on an offensive line, and it was a multi-year process, I'd have a couple of components: 1. recruiting new offensive linemen to groom for my line in a couple of years and 2. moving some of the Johnson players to guard and center and 3. pulling in some transfers to fill gaps in the meantime--especially at tackle.

2019: Collins is hired and turns away two offensive linemen that Johnson had offered. For the recruitniks, that class had 1 4 star (Jamious Griffin) and Yates (depending on the service), and most of the rest were 3 stars. We had two DTs and no OL from high school. We pulled in defensive line recruits and no offensive line recruits (unless you count 1 tight end--Dylan Leonard).
Brent Key didn't start until Jan 10, 2020. I don't think he was involved in the recruiting process that year--at least, he shouldn't have been. One of the key (no pun intended) experts in designing our new OL wasn't active in finding players for this recruiting cycle.
We had one offensive line transfer (Jared Southers) and one TE transfer.
If you felt that OL was a critical need, then 2019 was a missed opportunity. If you were an NFL GM, you'd have drafted an offensive tackle and maybe gotten one in free agency.
The recruiting and transfer emphasis was on defense and at skill positions.
If you're a coach, and you think that it's going to take three years to grow an offensive line, then the read from 2019 is that you're starting in 2020 and your first "homegrown" offensive line is 2022 or 2023, depending on how you count.
That's a LONG wait if you're a fan. That's also the season after next.
I have to chalk this up as a planning error. If you actually believe that this is a huge transition and it's mainly on the offensive line, then have a consultant help you until Key comes on board and find the linemen you need.
There's an old saying that if you want to know someone's priorities, don't listen to what they say--watch what they do. Our priorities were defense and wide receiver. I also have to think this was Patenaude's influence too--he could have pushed for offensive linemen.

2020: OK, this year we recruited 6 linemen. After a year, someone decided we needed new blood on the offensive line. Rankins, Williams, Wing Green are at tackle, and Vaipulu is recruited as a center. Our total recruits are Jordan Williams, Cade Kootsouradis, Wing Green, Michael Rankins, Ryan Spiers, and Paula Vaipulu. Ryan Johnson transfers as a guard and Devin Cochran as a tackle.
Williams, Vaipulu, Johnson, and Cochran are "starters" as of 2021. Williams and Vaipulu are homegrown and "young"
It looks like the coaching staff is adopting an offensive line rebuild, but they do it in year #2.
Cochran doesn't play during the covid season, so you don't really get as much of a quick fix for that year.
IFF you believe it takes 3 years to rebuild a line, then we're one year behind from the 2019 class, and possibly two years behind from the lost 2020 offseason practices being cancelled.

2021: You are here. Kirby and Pendley transfer. Weston Franklin and Jakiah Leftwich are our two OL commits. Our ATL offensive linemen at the end of the year are: Jordan Williams (Fr), Mikey Minihan (RS JR from CPJ), Vaipulu (FR), Ryan Johnson (RS SR), Weston Franklin (FR), Kenneth Kirby (RS SR), Wing Green (FR), Devin Cochran (RS SR), and William Lay (RS JR, Walkon).
We didn't recruit that heavily for this year, but we're up against roster limits.

2022: Next Season. Pierce Quick transfers from Alabama and Paul Tchio transfers from Clemson. Bobby Mooney, Tyler Gibson, and Brandon Best are recruits.
So, for next year, we have to guess a lot to see what's going to happen. Here comes a lot of guesswork.
Here is the OL listed on our Ramblin Wreck roster for next year:
Jordan Williams
Mikey Minihan
Will Scissum
Paula Vaipulu
Michael Maye
Cade Kootsouradis
Will Milam
Nick Pendley
Anthony Minella
Joe Fusile
Matthew Morgan
Weston Franklin
Jakiah Leftwich
Wing Green
William Lay
Brandon Best
Tyler Gibson
Plus Mooney, Tchio, and Quick who aren't listed yet.

At TE we have Dylan Leonard, Dylan Deveney, Chris Miller, Billy Ward, Ben Wilhelm, Ben Postma, and Jack Coco. Jack Coco is also a long snapper, as are Henry Freer and Cade Long.

I would expect us to lose players to the transfer portal or injury scholarships, based on the 85-player cap

I guess that Tchio and Quick are projected starters. Some of our 2020 large OL class will be in their third season. Home grown players should be emerging this year and next on the "three-year plan". The transition should be over this year if the lost COVID offseason weren't a factor.

In the end, we have two questions

• How long should a transition take? If you planned ahead and connected successfully with transfers, 2020 would have had a pretty good line, and this past season would have had an above average one.
  • Things didn't pan out that well, we didn't plan ahead, we had COVID, and we're at least two years behind where we should be
  • To have a good line last year, we'd have had to "hit" really well on our transfers and/or our recruits and have done more in 2019. We didn't do much in 2019, so we weren't going to have that strong line last year
  • Without making a move in 2019, we could have had a good line this season. The question is "how big a deal was the lost off-season?". Everyone else had to deal with that lost season on offense and on their defensive lines. We had a full spring practice and summer practices and transfers.
  • Our transfers did not hit big enough for us this season to have a quick fix.
  • There are options like 2-back sets, Fullbacks, H-Backs, and Tight Ends that can be used to solidify your blocking. We haven't had much success with our TE blocking and were late to adopt 2-back sets. This is something we should have done back in 2019.
  • I'd expect our offensive line to have been decent this year.
• Other question: Will it pan out for next year?
  • Some things had to go wrong for us to be behind schedule--not going big in 2019 on the OL, a lost COVID year, and some of the transfers panning out OK but not as good as we'd like.
  • It has potential. The linemen are old enough and the 2020 class will be "on their third season". There has been enough time for development.
  • It has to.

It's pure guesswork on my part and it's dangerous to assume what's in a coach's mind but looking at the timeline I have to think that Collins thought that he'd have more time and more patience from the fans. He probably also thought he'd hit more on his transfers and recruits. Player development hasn't been what I'd hoped.

Purely looking ahead, combined with the trends over the past three seasons, I'd forecast our offensive line as being good in the 2023 season, and under our next coach.
Collins and Long and Key are going to have to do everything humanly possible to move that timeline up a year.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

We've had a lot of debate on this topic. A common argument is that Collins needed to recruit a new offensive line and that he couldn't really use the players that Johnson had recruited. I'm not saying that's true, but let's pull up the time machine and take a look back.

If I were a coach and felt that I had to make a complete transition on an offensive line, and it was a multi-year process, I'd have a couple of components: 1. recruiting new offensive linemen to groom for my line in a couple of years and 2. moving some of the Johnson players to guard and center and 3. pulling in some transfers to fill gaps in the meantime--especially at tackle.

2019: Collins is hired and turns away two offensive linemen that Johnson had offered. For the recruitniks, that class had 1 4 star (Jamious Griffin) and Yates (depending on the service), and most of the rest were 3 stars. We had two DTs and no OL from high school. We pulled in defensive line recruits and no offensive line recruits (unless you count 1 tight end--Dylan Leonard).
Brent Key didn't start until Jan 10, 2020. I don't think he was involved in the recruiting process that year--at least, he shouldn't have been. One of the key (no pun intended) experts in designing our new OL wasn't active in finding players for this recruiting cycle.
We had one offensive line transfer (Jared Southers) and one TE transfer.
If you felt that OL was a critical need, then 2019 was a missed opportunity. If you were an NFL GM, you'd have drafted an offensive tackle and maybe gotten one in free agency.
The recruiting and transfer emphasis was on defense and at skill positions.
If you're a coach, and you think that it's going to take three years to grow an offensive line, then the read from 2019 is that you're starting in 2020 and your first "homegrown" offensive line is 2022 or 2023, depending on how you count.
That's a LONG wait if you're a fan. That's also the season after next.
I have to chalk this up as a planning error. If you actually believe that this is a huge transition and it's mainly on the offensive line, then have a consultant help you until Key comes on board and find the linemen you need.
There's an old saying that if you want to know someone's priorities, don't listen to what they say--watch what they do. Our priorities were defense and wide receiver. I also have to think this was Patenaude's influence too--he could have pushed for offensive linemen.

2020: OK, this year we recruited 6 linemen. After a year, someone decided we needed new blood on the offensive line. Rankins, Williams, Wing Green are at tackle, and Vaipulu is recruited as a center. Our total recruits are Jordan Williams, Cade Kootsouradis, Wing Green, Michael Rankins, Ryan Spiers, and Paula Vaipulu. Ryan Johnson transfers as a guard and Devin Cochran as a tackle.
Williams, Vaipulu, Johnson, and Cochran are "starters" as of 2021. Williams and Vaipulu are homegrown and "young"
It looks like the coaching staff is adopting an offensive line rebuild, but they do it in year #2.
Cochran doesn't play during the covid season, so you don't really get as much of a quick fix for that year.
IFF you believe it takes 3 years to rebuild a line, then we're one year behind from the 2019 class, and possibly two years behind from the lost 2020 offseason practices being cancelled.

2021: You are here. Kirby and Pendley transfer. Weston Franklin and Jakiah Leftwich are our two OL commits. Our ATL offensive linemen at the end of the year are: Jordan Williams (Fr), Mikey Minihan (RS JR from CPJ), Vaipulu (FR), Ryan Johnson (RS SR), Weston Franklin (FR), Kenneth Kirby (RS SR), Wing Green (FR), Devin Cochran (RS SR), and William Lay (RS JR, Walkon).
We didn't recruit that heavily for this year, but we're up against roster limits.

2022: Next Season. Pierce Quick transfers from Alabama and Paul Tchio transfers from Clemson. Bobby Mooney, Tyler Gibson, and Brandon Best are recruits.
So, for next year, we have to guess a lot to see what's going to happen. Here comes a lot of guesswork.
Here is the OL listed on our Ramblin Wreck roster for next year:
Jordan Williams
Mikey Minihan
Will Scissum
Paula Vaipulu
Michael Maye
Cade Kootsouradis
Will Milam
Nick Pendley
Anthony Minella
Joe Fusile
Matthew Morgan
Weston Franklin
Jakiah Leftwich
Wing Green
William Lay
Brandon Best
Tyler Gibson
Plus Mooney, Tchio, and Quick who aren't listed yet.

At TE we have Dylan Leonard, Dylan Deveney, Chris Miller, Billy Ward, Ben Wilhelm, Ben Postma, and Jack Coco. Jack Coco is also a long snapper, as are Henry Freer and Cade Long.

I would expect us to lose players to the transfer portal or injury scholarships, based on the 85-player cap

I guess that Tchio and Quick are projected starters. Some of our 2020 large OL class will be in their third season. Home grown players should be emerging this year and next on the "three-year plan". The transition should be over this year if the lost COVID offseason weren't a factor.

In the end, we have two questions

• How long should a transition take? If you planned ahead and connected successfully with transfers, 2020 would have had a pretty good line, and this past season would have had an above average one.
  • Things didn't pan out that well, we didn't plan ahead, we had COVID, and we're at least two years behind where we should be
  • To have a good line last year, we'd have had to "hit" really well on our transfers and/or our recruits and have done more in 2019. We didn't do much in 2019, so we weren't going to have that strong line last year
  • Without making a move in 2019, we could have had a good line this season. The question is "how big a deal was the lost off-season?". Everyone else had to deal with that lost season on offense and on their defensive lines. We had a full spring practice and summer practices and transfers.
  • Our transfers did not hit big enough for us this season to have a quick fix.
  • There are options like 2-back sets, Fullbacks, H-Backs, and Tight Ends that can be used to solidify your blocking. We haven't had much success with our TE blocking and were late to adopt 2-back sets. This is something we should have done back in 2019.
  • I'd expect our offensive line to have been decent this year.
• Other question: Will it pan out for next year?
  • Some things had to go wrong for us to be behind schedule--not going big in 2019 on the OL, a lost COVID year, and some of the transfers panning out OK but not as good as we'd like.
  • It has potential. The linemen are old enough and the 2020 class will be "on their third season". There has been enough time for development.
  • It has to.

It's pure guesswork on my part and it's dangerous to assume what's in a coach's mind but looking at the timeline I have to think that Collins thought that he'd have more time and more patience from the fans. He probably also thought he'd hit more on his transfers and recruits. Player development hasn't been what I'd hoped.

Purely looking ahead, combined with the trends over the past three seasons, I'd forecast our offensive line as being good in the 2023 season, and under our next coach.
Collins and Long and Key are going to have to do everything humanly possible to move that timeline up a year.

Nice analysis. Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness.

Part of the reason I have pushed in the past for people to be more specific about how long a transition should take is that, in my opinion, there has been no evidence that giving this coach an unlimited time frame will get us to 10 or more wins. Progress has been slow and that is putting it charitably.

I continue to hope that the light bulb will come on for this coach and the team. The problem, which you have spelled out well, is that the offensive line should have been job 1 given how much time CGC spent talking about heights and weights and transitions. But an additional problem is that if he felt it was permissible to ignore the line while working on other aspects of the team then those other aspects should have been perfect by year 3. As it was, game management and play calling remained abysmal, the defense seemed to regress, our kicking game was average to mediocre and the QB is still an unsettled position.

Maybe if the offensive line turns around this year it will have a positive impact on the rest of the team. Time is critical for this coach and if he ever needed motivation to get this offensive line put together this is the year.

 

[cthenrys]

Agreed. Thank you @slugboy for the analysis. it's good stuff. I'm sure OL was on CGC's priority list - I just don't see that the unit has improved under CBK. CBK is well regarded but the results just don't (IMO) justify it. We can for sure be honest about the talent level he is working with, but in the end you have to expect any unit will improve over time, S&C, game experience, and I haven't seen it - I'm not an OL expert btw so maybe I'm wrong. As was said above, maybe the light goes on in 2022, but we again will have an OL that hasn't worked together as a unit. Seems like other teams deal with this as well with more success....

 

[stech81]

We've had a lot of debate on this topic. A common argument is that Collins needed to recruit a new offensive line and that he couldn't really use the players that Johnson had recruited. I'm not saying that's true, but let's pull up the time machine and take a look back.

If I were a coach and felt that I had to make a complete transition on an offensive line, and it was a multi-year process, I'd have a couple of components: 1. recruiting new offensive linemen to groom for my line in a couple of years and 2. moving some of the Johnson players to guard and center and 3. pulling in some transfers to fill gaps in the meantime--especially at tackle.

2019: Collins is hired and turns away two offensive linemen that Johnson had offered. For the recruitniks, that class had 1 4 star (Jamious Griffin) and Yates (depending on the service), and most of the rest were 3 stars. We had two DTs and no OL from high school. We pulled in defensive line recruits and no offensive line recruits (unless you count 1 tight end--Dylan Leonard).
Brent Key didn't start until Jan 10, 2020. I don't think he was involved in the recruiting process that year--at least, he shouldn't have been. One of the key (no pun intended) experts in designing our new OL wasn't active in finding players for this recruiting cycle.
We had one offensive line transfer (Jared Southers) and one TE transfer.
If you felt that OL was a critical need, then 2019 was a missed opportunity. If you were an NFL GM, you'd have drafted an offensive tackle and maybe gotten one in free agency.
The recruiting and transfer emphasis was on defense and at skill positions.
If you're a coach, and you think that it's going to take three years to grow an offensive line, then the read from 2019 is that you're starting in 2020 and your first "homegrown" offensive line is 2022 or 2023, depending on how you count.
That's a LONG wait if you're a fan. That's also the season after next.
I have to chalk this up as a planning error. If you actually believe that this is a huge transition and it's mainly on the offensive line, then have a consultant help you until Key comes on board and find the linemen you need.
There's an old saying that if you want to know someone's priorities, don't listen to what they say--watch what they do. Our priorities were defense and wide receiver. I also have to think this was Patenaude's influence too--he could have pushed for offensive linemen.

2020: OK, this year we recruited 6 linemen. After a year, someone decided we needed new blood on the offensive line. Rankins, Williams, Wing Green are at tackle, and Vaipulu is recruited as a center. Our total recruits are Jordan Williams, Cade Kootsouradis, Wing Green, Michael Rankins, Ryan Spiers, and Paula Vaipulu. Ryan Johnson transfers as a guard and Devin Cochran as a tackle.
Williams, Vaipulu, Johnson, and Cochran are "starters" as of 2021. Williams and Vaipulu are homegrown and "young"
It looks like the coaching staff is adopting an offensive line rebuild, but they do it in year #2.
Cochran doesn't play during the covid season, so you don't really get as much of a quick fix for that year.
IFF you believe it takes 3 years to rebuild a line, then we're one year behind from the 2019 class, and possibly two years behind from the lost 2020 offseason practices being cancelled.

2021: You are here. Kirby and Pendley transfer. Weston Franklin and Jakiah Leftwich are our two OL commits. Our ATL offensive linemen at the end of the year are: Jordan Williams (Fr), Mikey Minihan (RS JR from CPJ), Vaipulu (FR), Ryan Johnson (RS SR), Weston Franklin (FR), Kenneth Kirby (RS SR), Wing Green (FR), Devin Cochran (RS SR), and William Lay (RS JR, Walkon).
We didn't recruit that heavily for this year, but we're up against roster limits.

2022: Next Season. Pierce Quick transfers from Alabama and Paul Tchio transfers from Clemson. Bobby Mooney, Tyler Gibson, and Brandon Best are recruits.
So, for next year, we have to guess a lot to see what's going to happen. Here comes a lot of guesswork.
Here is the OL listed on our Ramblin Wreck roster for next year:
Jordan Williams
Mikey Minihan
Will Scissum
Paula Vaipulu
Michael Maye
Cade Kootsouradis
Will Milam
Nick Pendley
Anthony Minella
Joe Fusile
Matthew Morgan
Weston Franklin
Jakiah Leftwich
Wing Green
William Lay
Brandon Best
Tyler Gibson
Plus Mooney, Tchio, and Quick who aren't listed yet.

At TE we have Dylan Leonard, Dylan Deveney, Chris Miller, Billy Ward, Ben Wilhelm, Ben Postma, and Jack Coco. Jack Coco is also a long snapper, as are Henry Freer and Cade Long.

I would expect us to lose players to the transfer portal or injury scholarships, based on the 85-player cap

I guess that Tchio and Quick are projected starters. Some of our 2020 large OL class will be in their third season. Home grown players should be emerging this year and next on the "three-year plan". The transition should be over this year if the lost COVID offseason weren't a factor.

In the end, we have two questions

• How long should a transition take? If you planned ahead and connected successfully with transfers, 2020 would have had a pretty good line, and this past season would have had an above average one.
  • Things didn't pan out that well, we didn't plan ahead, we had COVID, and we're at least two years behind where we should be
  • To have a good line last year, we'd have had to "hit" really well on our transfers and/or our recruits and have done more in 2019. We didn't do much in 2019, so we weren't going to have that strong line last year
  • Without making a move in 2019, we could have had a good line this season. The question is "how big a deal was the lost off-season?". Everyone else had to deal with that lost season on offense and on their defensive lines. We had a full spring practice and summer practices and transfers.
  • Our transfers did not hit big enough for us this season to have a quick fix.
  • There are options like 2-back sets, Fullbacks, H-Backs, and Tight Ends that can be used to solidify your blocking. We haven't had much success with our TE blocking and were late to adopt 2-back sets. This is something we should have done back in 2019.
  • I'd expect our offensive line to have been decent this year.
• Other question: Will it pan out for next year?
  • Some things had to go wrong for us to be behind schedule--not going big in 2019 on the OL, a lost COVID year, and some of the transfers panning out OK but not as good as we'd like.
  • It has potential. The linemen are old enough and the 2020 class will be "on their third season". There has been enough time for development.
  • It has to.

It's pure guesswork on my part and it's dangerous to assume what's in a coach's mind but looking at the timeline I have to think that Collins thought that he'd have more time and more patience from the fans. He probably also thought he'd hit more on his transfers and recruits. Player development hasn't been what I'd hoped.

Purely looking ahead, combined with the trends over the past three seasons, I'd forecast our offensive line as being good in the 2023 season, and under our next coach.
Collins and Long and Key are going to have to do everything humanly possible to move that timeline up a year.

Nice job but I thought the 2 OL in 2019 was them not wanting to sign not us turning them down. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought Tstand told CGC to honor all players. Now again if I'm right I don't think CGC or anyone went to talk to them but I believe if they wanted they could sign

 

[chewybaka]

We've had a lot of debate on this topic. A common argument is that Collins needed to recruit a new offensive line and that he couldn't really use the players that Johnson had recruited. I'm not saying that's true, but let's pull up the time machine and take a look back.

If I were a coach and felt that I had to make a complete transition on an offensive line, and it was a multi-year process, I'd have a couple of components: 1. recruiting new offensive linemen to groom for my line in a couple of years and 2. moving some of the Johnson players to guard and center and 3. pulling in some transfers to fill gaps in the meantime--especially at tackle.

2019: Collins is hired and turns away two offensive linemen that Johnson had offered. For the recruitniks, that class had 1 4 star (Jamious Griffin) and Yates (depending on the service), and most of the rest were 3 stars. We had two DTs and no OL from high school. We pulled in defensive line recruits and no offensive line recruits (unless you count 1 tight end--Dylan Leonard).
Brent Key didn't start until Jan 10, 2020. I don't think he was involved in the recruiting process that year--at least, he shouldn't have been. One of the key (no pun intended) experts in designing our new OL wasn't active in finding players for this recruiting cycle.
We had one offensive line transfer (Jared Southers) and one TE transfer.
If you felt that OL was a critical need, then 2019 was a missed opportunity. If you were an NFL GM, you'd have drafted an offensive tackle and maybe gotten one in free agency.
The recruiting and transfer emphasis was on defense and at skill positions.
If you're a coach, and you think that it's going to take three years to grow an offensive line, then the read from 2019 is that you're starting in 2020 and your first "homegrown" offensive line is 2022 or 2023, depending on how you count.
That's a LONG wait if you're a fan. That's also the season after next.
I have to chalk this up as a planning error. If you actually believe that this is a huge transition and it's mainly on the offensive line, then have a consultant help you until Key comes on board and find the linemen you need.
There's an old saying that if you want to know someone's priorities, don't listen to what they say--watch what they do. Our priorities were defense and wide receiver. I also have to think this was Patenaude's influence too--he could have pushed for offensive linemen.

2020: OK, this year we recruited 6 linemen. After a year, someone decided we needed new blood on the offensive line. Rankins, Williams, Wing Green are at tackle, and Vaipulu is recruited as a center. Our total recruits are Jordan Williams, Cade Kootsouradis, Wing Green, Michael Rankins, Ryan Spiers, and Paula Vaipulu. Ryan Johnson transfers as a guard and Devin Cochran as a tackle.
Williams, Vaipulu, Johnson, and Cochran are "starters" as of 2021. Williams and Vaipulu are homegrown and "young"
It looks like the coaching staff is adopting an offensive line rebuild, but they do it in year #2.
Cochran doesn't play during the covid season, so you don't really get as much of a quick fix for that year.
IFF you believe it takes 3 years to rebuild a line, then we're one year behind from the 2019 class, and possibly two years behind from the lost 2020 offseason practices being cancelled.

2021: You are here. Kirby and Pendley transfer. Weston Franklin and Jakiah Leftwich are our two OL commits. Our ATL offensive linemen at the end of the year are: Jordan Williams (Fr), Mikey Minihan (RS JR from CPJ), Vaipulu (FR), Ryan Johnson (RS SR), Weston Franklin (FR), Kenneth Kirby (RS SR), Wing Green (FR), Devin Cochran (RS SR), and William Lay (RS JR, Walkon).
We didn't recruit that heavily for this year, but we're up against roster limits.

2022: Next Season. Pierce Quick transfers from Alabama and Paul Tchio transfers from Clemson. Bobby Mooney, Tyler Gibson, and Brandon Best are recruits.
So, for next year, we have to guess a lot to see what's going to happen. Here comes a lot of guesswork.
Here is the OL listed on our Ramblin Wreck roster for next year:
Jordan Williams
Mikey Minihan
Will Scissum
Paula Vaipulu
Michael Maye
Cade Kootsouradis
Will Milam
Nick Pendley
Anthony Minella
Joe Fusile
Matthew Morgan
Weston Franklin
Jakiah Leftwich
Wing Green
William Lay
Brandon Best
Tyler Gibson
Plus Mooney, Tchio, and Quick who aren't listed yet.

At TE we have Dylan Leonard, Dylan Deveney, Chris Miller, Billy Ward, Ben Wilhelm, Ben Postma, and Jack Coco. Jack Coco is also a long snapper, as are Henry Freer and Cade Long.

I would expect us to lose players to the transfer portal or injury scholarships, based on the 85-player cap

I guess that Tchio and Quick are projected starters. Some of our 2020 large OL class will be in their third season. Home grown players should be emerging this year and next on the "three-year plan". The transition should be over this year if the lost COVID offseason weren't a factor.

In the end, we have two questions

• How long should a transition take? If you planned ahead and connected successfully with transfers, 2020 would have had a pretty good line, and this past season would have had an above average one.
  • Things didn't pan out that well, we didn't plan ahead, we had COVID, and we're at least two years behind where we should be
  • To have a good line last year, we'd have had to "hit" really well on our transfers and/or our recruits and have done more in 2019. We didn't do much in 2019, so we weren't going to have that strong line last year
  • Without making a move in 2019, we could have had a good line this season. The question is "how big a deal was the lost off-season?". Everyone else had to deal with that lost season on offense and on their defensive lines. We had a full spring practice and summer practices and transfers.
  • Our transfers did not hit big enough for us this season to have a quick fix.
  • There are options like 2-back sets, Fullbacks, H-Backs, and Tight Ends that can be used to solidify your blocking. We haven't had much success with our TE blocking and were late to adopt 2-back sets. This is something we should have done back in 2019.
  • I'd expect our offensive line to have been decent this year.
• Other question: Will it pan out for next year?
  • Some things had to go wrong for us to be behind schedule--not going big in 2019 on the OL, a lost COVID year, and some of the transfers panning out OK but not as good as we'd like.
  • It has potential. The linemen are old enough and the 2020 class will be "on their third season". There has been enough time for development.
  • It has to.

It's pure guesswork on my part and it's dangerous to assume what's in a coach's mind but looking at the timeline I have to think that Collins thought that he'd have more time and more patience from the fans. He probably also thought he'd hit more on his transfers and recruits. Player development hasn't been what I'd hoped.

Purely looking ahead, combined with the trends over the past three seasons, I'd forecast our offensive line as being good in the 2023 season, and under our next coach.
Collins and Long and Key are going to have to do everything humanly possible to move that timeline up a year.

Nice research/post thank you!

 

[slugboy]

Nice job but I thought the 2 OL in 2019 was them not wanting to sign not us turning them down. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought Tstand told CGC to honor all players. Now again if I'm right I don't think CGC or anyone went to talk to them but I believe if they wanted they could sign

The main point is that we only signed one OL that year, and he was a transfer. We didn’t get a quick fix (transfers) or start building for the future (HS recruits).

If the transition needed a focus on the offensive line, we waited until the second recruiting cycle to start that.

Over the past couple of recruiting cycles, we’ve also looked at transfers as a quicker fix. Despite that, we haven’t gotten immediate results.

As a side note, we loaded up on defense that year, and three seasons later the defense hasn’t progressed by most of the measures I watch. We’ve also tried to bring in transfers all over the defense to shore that unit up. That hasn’t yielded progress either.