Building an Offensive Line

[billga99]

I’m a believer that the OL talent at the beginning of the TFG Debacle was better (maybe significantly better) than what TFG claimed. I think he was looking for excuses from day 1 to cover his shortcomings.

I think it is interesting that the 2nd half of this season improved out outcome (excluding Clemson) by pounding the ball. We had a spread offense but leverage our runners. If you look at many of the national championship teams (particularly UGA and Alabama), running is an integral part of their success. I think having a balance of run and pass is where you start and then adjust based on what is working best. My problem with our previous regime is they stuck to a specific tactic and never adjusted. The best coaches make impactful changes on the fly.

 

[stinger78]

I’m a believer that the OL talent at the beginning of the TFG Debacle was better (maybe significantly better) than what TFG claimed. I think he was looking for excuses from day 1 to cover his shortcomings.

The proof in the pudding was how many of CPJ’s OL played the first 3 seasons under TFG.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

The other guy was fitting square pegs in a round hole. Among many of his failures. A good offensive mind would have adjusted his scheme to fit the talent.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

I’m a believer that the OL talent at the beginning of the TFG Debacle was better (maybe significantly better) than what TFG claimed. I think he was looking for excuses from day 1 to cover his shortcomings.

We can agree to disagree. The talent on the OL was non existent in 2019. Especially, with the transfer of Parker Braun.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

The proof in the pudding was how many of CPJ’s OL played the first 3 seasons under TFG.

Cochran was a transfer who would have started in 2020 if he did not get hurt.

Ryan Johnson was a transfer who played plenty in 2020.

Jordan Williams started as a Freshman in 2020.

Most of lineman from CPJ were replaced before their Senior year and either rode the bench or left.

Also, our line stank our first few years under TFG. So, saying there was talent because they played is a non sequitur.

 

[Root4GT]

Interesting enough is I think PJ inherited an even better DL. Gailey could recognize talent just couldn't maximize it.

Four Georgia Tech players were selected Sunday in the 2009 NFL draft. Defensive end Michael Johnson was taken in the third round by the Cincinnati Bengals, offensive tackle Andrew Gardner in the sixth round by the Miami Dolphins, defensive tackle defensive tackle Vance Walker in the seventh round by the Atlanta Falcons, and defensive tackle Darryl Richard in the seventh round by the New England Patriots.

And of course the 4th DL player was Derek Morgan who became the ACC Defensive Player of the year and a 1st Round Draft pick. Oh for the want of the talent on that DL!

 

[Root4GT]

I think it is interesting that the 2nd half of this season improved out outcome (excluding Clemson) by pounding the ball. We had a spread offense but leverage our runners. If you look at many of the national championship teams (particularly UGA and Alabama), running is an integral part of their success. I think having a balance of run and pass is where you start and then adjust based on what is working best. My problem with our previous regime is they stuck to a specific tactic and never adjusted. The best coaches make impactful changes on the fly.

Our OL was significantly better at run blocking as the year progressed than at pass blocking. Haynes and Smith were good RBs that could squeeze through small holes. King was very good at avoiding the pass pressure he was under a good bit!

We could use a tall WRs with speed that can win 50/50 balls. Of course what team couldn't. That seems to be the one thing lacking with our WR room. Overall they are a solid group.

 

[GT33]

So much love for TCC still. Unbelievable, some people will love him until their last dying breath and defend his honor against all comers. Quite remarkable given what he did to our program.

 

[stinger78]

Cochran was a transfer who would have started in 2020 if he did not get hurt.

Ryan Johnson was a transfer who played plenty in 2020.

Jordan Williams started as a Freshman in 2020.

Most of lineman from CPJ were replaced before their Senior year and either rode the bench or left.

Also, our line stank our first few years under TFG. So, saying there was talent because they played is a non sequitur.

They were being aaked to execute what they were not recruited for. That they continued to place on the “ATL” list tells you some things if you’re willing to accept it.

 

[ramblin_man]

Just for kicks 1-4. 4 being very talented. How talented of a OL coach do we have now? I have been ver impressed so I will give Geep Wade a 3 in his performance thus far.

 

[stinger 1957]

Just for kicks 1-4. 4 being very talented. How talented of a OL coach do we have now? I have been ver impressed so I will give Geep Wade a 3 in his performance thus far.

CBK thinks he's doing a really good job, he's damn sure better judge than I am.

 

[stinger78]

They were being aaked to execute what they were not recruited for. That they continued to place on the “ATL” list tells you some things if you’re willing to accept it.

Hate to reply to my own post, but wanted to add some data. In 2018, CPJ’s last season, we were 5th in the country in rushing at over 300 ypg, and we were 75th in total O at just under 400 ypg.

 

[GT33]

Not sure who caused an entire thread on how well our OL was playing to get nuked, but hope you have a Happy new Year! I swear some people just want us to suck as long as we're pumping iron on the sidelines, perfecting our dance routines, setting records in futility & losing every damn game.

 

[bobongo]

Not sure who caused an entire thread on how well our OL was playing to get nuked, but hope you have a Happy new Year! I swear some people just want us to suck as long as we're pumping iron on the sidelines, perfecting our dance routines, setting records in futility & losing every damn game.

It's still on the board.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

Hate to reply to my own post, but wanted to add some data. In 2018, CPJ’s last season, we were 5th in the country in rushing at over 300 ypg, and we were 75th in total O at just under 400 ypg.

I do not think anyone will argue that CPJ could not get high production out of marginally decent players or that his offense is always ineffective with lesser talent. The fact we were so productive with that line is a testament to his scheme and the competitive advantage it gave us. Still, our best lineman was Parker Braun and he left after the 2018 season. We had no lineman in the incoming class that was signed and everyone who was left on the roster was not talented enough to be effective in any offense except one being coached by one of the greatest coaches in college football history.

 

[stinger78]

I do not think anyone will argue that CPJ could not get high production out of marginally decent players or that his offense is always ineffective with lesser talent. The fact we were so productive with that line is a testament to his scheme and the competitive advantage it gave us. Still, our best lineman was Parker Braun and he left after the 2018 season. We had no lineman in the incoming class that was signed and everyone who was left on the roster was not talented enough to be effective in any offense except one being coached by one of the greatest coaches in college football history.

I suppose my issue is with the label "marginally decent." I'd say they were darned good at what they were signed on to do and they performed well. They're only "marginally decent" if they're asked to do what they aren't cut out to do. I just don't believe that's the best way to assign value. In fact, by that metric, many of the proto-NFL OL today could no more block CPJ's system than you or I could. Would they be labelled "marginally decent?" No way. They are great OL, cut-blocking out of a 3/4-point stance is just not their skill set. They are great stand-up blockers, which is what they are signed on to do.

 

[takethepoints]

Johnson had a functional scratch built OL in 2008 using converted DL and Tight ends as tackles.

Yes. The 2008 team was one of the most injury-ridden teams in Tech history. Both starting OTs (including Andrew Gardner) missed the last two games. Of the 22 starters in the opening game, 11 missed at least one game. And depth? Surely ou jest. Tech had 76 scholarship players that year. 16 of Tech's 22 starters in the season were freshmen or sophomores; by the Peach Bowl there were no senior starters on offense. (I got all this from the Tech Peach Bowl guide at Rambling Wreck. I've read it more then once.)

So, yes, that team is a strong case for how you can build an OL very quickly provided you have good coaching. But I would bet on development most of the time myself.

 

[takethepoints]

I suppose my issue is with the label "marginally decent." I'd say they were darned good at what they were signed on to do and they performed well. They're only "marginally decent" if they're asked to do what they aren't cut out to do. I just don't believe that's the best way to assign value. In fact, by that metric, many of the proto-NFL OL today could no more block CPJ's system than you or I could. Would they be labelled "marginally decent?" No way. They are great OL, cut-blocking out of a 3/4-point stance is just not their skill set. They are great stand-up blockers, which is what they are signed on to do.

I'd also point out that the great Steeler OLs that made Terry Bradshaw and Franco Harris stars weighted in on average at around 250. And were absolutely as fast as lightening. Then they changed the NFL rules to allow holding - well, that's what it is - and the whole equation for OL success changed too.

And, to be fair, Don Coryell probably had something to do with it.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I don’t believe that this years line would have been this good without a coaching change - how much potential to do better was wasted the first three years under Collins? Should we have expected a dominant line in year 2 or 3? No, but we could have seen significant progress.

At the time 2007 was a very demoralizing season. Started high, then just seemed to undo all the progress of the last three years. And the pass-first QB we’d been waiting for transferred away after spring practice, IIRC, leaving us with another inept offense. That 2008 team was expected by many to be a rebuild that would be more Gardner Webb than Miami due to similar concerns of talent/scheme mismatches and a lot of reliance on FR at skill positions.

We’re looking at the folks left going into 2008 with hindsight that is informed by what Johnson was able to get them to do. I think we should apply similar hindsight based on 2023 to our expectations for 2020 and 2021.

On point. People need to remember how many games the “experts” said CPJ would win in 2008. The fact that he blew those predictions out of the water speaks volumes about how quickly some coaches can convert a team to their system.

CGC poor mouthed the talent he inherited so much that one kept thinking he would eventually exceed expectations since he set the bar so low. But as low as he set expectations, he always underperformed.

CBK has exceeded expectations from the moment he took over the team last year. He is reminiscent of great coaches in other programs who have built decent OLs in a couple of years.

 

[GT33]

Yes. The 2008 team was one of the most injury-ridden teams in Tech history. Both starting OTs (including Andrew Gardner) missed the last two games. Of the 22 starters in the opening game, 11 missed at least one game. And depth? Surely ou jest. Tech had 76 scholarship players that year. 16 of Tech's 22 starters in the season were freshmen or sophomores; by the Peach Bowl there were no senior starters on offense. (I got all this from the Tech Peach Bowl guide at Rambling Wreck. I've read it more then once.)

So, yes, that team is a strong case for how you can build an OL very quickly provided you have good coaching. But I would bet on development most of the time myself.

As you pointed out again, the facts just don't match what some people want the narrative to be. Most every morning recently I stroll by this site not to be disappointed by the continuing effort to paint Pul Johnson as some sort of inferior coach and TCC or MoBS as some sort of coaching genius. I really don't care what team you would have given him, TCC would have failed like he did at every single stop in his entire professional career. His prior-GT tenures were all hyped up fake accomplishments, cherry picked data to make him look ok. Despite what was staring us in the face many of us hoped it would be alright and tried to make supportive statements, latching onto any success as a beacon of hope because we'd rather have GT be successful. Like when your daughter brings home some loser, you hope it works out for the best. That one was never going to turn out ok. He had a good enough team to win including on the OL, he was not capable of doing anything other than damn near destroying our program and he has the record to prove it.