Building an Offensive Line

[forensicbuzz]

Facts:

The talent Key started with was EXACTLY the same as TCC left him with.

It took EXACTLY 1 week to turn the team around.

Agree. It was the talent he had been working with for the previous 3 years. Finally, he was able to put them in a position to be more successful.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

Not true at all with Johnson. We played a walk on at center and converted people to be tackles because the talent we had on the oline was equally not suited to his style of offense

This is some revisionist history. The OL that Johnson had when he started had multiple All ACC and NFL players. It was far superior to the one he left after his retirement and it is not close.

 

[stinger78]

OL Recruiting by Year - since 2019:

2019: HS - 0, Trans - 1 (Southers - SR)
2020: HS - 5 (Williams), Trans - 2 (Cochran - JR, R Johnson - SR)
2021: HS - 3 (Franklin, Leftwich), Trans -2
2022: HS - 3 (Gibson), Trans - 4 (C Robinson - FR, Tchio - FR)
2023: HS - 5 (Fortson, Mackenny), Trans - 2 (Scaglione - SR
Brown, Best, Scaglione, Galloway,

Fusile came in as a PWO, IIRC, around 2020 or so.

Except for Corey Robinson, Scaglione, and Tchio you can see how we built our OL.

 

[stinger78]

This is some revisionist history. The OL that Johnson had when he started had multiple All ACC and NFL players. It was far superior to the one he left after his retirement and it is not close.

CPJ’s first OL was Gardner (who got injured), Gilbert, Yandel, Brown, Voss, Claytor, Sellers, and Barrick. To my knowledge, only Gardner played NFL ball. Howard was on the team but not sure he played that season. Maybe so, and he got a year or two in the League, IIRC.

 

[stinger78]

That would argue that it shouldn’t take 5 years, and that the reason it did was poor training practices.
Worst case, pre-transfer-portal, a good coach who recruits decently should be able to train up a a recruiting class in three years—juniors should be able to anchor a line, and for the juniors that don’t then a sophomore or freshman should be able to.

Yes, 3 years. Juniors often anchor an OL, and SOs fill needs pretty often, too. Of course, the best is a constantly refilling OL of SR/JRs. That takes years or insane recruiting.

 

[slugboy]

Matt Hinton, from before the portal days:

» Five for Fighting: The College Football Coaches’ Guide to Rebuilding an Offensive Line From Scratch

grantland.com

 

[GTHomer]

Matt Hinton, from before the portal days:

» Five for Fighting: The College Football Coaches’ Guide to Rebuilding an Offensive Line From Scratch

grantland.com

Great article! Interesting reading about using the rubric of the four Bs — BASE, BEND, BALANCE, and BURST to grade OLineman. Every coach has to have some type of formal evaluation process.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

CPJ’s first OL was Gardner (who got injured), Gilbert, Yandel, Brown, Voss, Claytor, Sellers, and Barrick. To my knowledge, only Gardner played NFL ball. Howard was on the team but not sure he played that season. Maybe so, and he got a year or two in the League, IIRC.

Cord Howard was two time All ACC (2008 and 2009) and played in the NFL. Omoregi Uzzi was also on the roster and made All ACC. Sean Bedford was also on the roster and made multiple All ACC teams. Four All ACC OL on the roster. Two of which made the NFL.

 

[57jacket]

Did anyone mention Mason? Great OG

 

[stinger78]

Cord Howard was two time All ACC (2008 and 2009) and played in the NFL. Omoregi Uzzi was also on the roster and made All ACC. Sean Bedford was also on the roster and made multiple All ACC teams. Four All ACC OL on the roster. Two of which made the NFL.

Yes, Cord was a FR, IIRC, on CPJ’s 2008 team, recruited by CCG. Not sure he played much that first year, but he may played. The other two were recruited by CPJ. Agreed, all were very good OL. Perhaps you’re pointing out that CPJ recruited better at OL his early years. Barrick (converted TE), Sellers, Brown (converted DL), Gardner, Voss, Bedford (converted walk-on DL), Claytor, Yandell, and Gilbert played the majority of snaps at OL in 2008-09 when we won 20 games in 2 seasons. Of that group, only Gardner played NFL ball, to my knowledge. Howard eventually played for CPJ, as did Uzzi. They all played very well quickly for CPJ.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

Yes, Cord was a FR, IIRC, on CPJ’s 2008 team, recruited by CCG. Not sure he played much that first year, but he may played. The other two were recruited by CPJ. Agreed, all were very good OL. Perhaps you’re pointing out that CPJ recruited better at OL his early years. Barrick (converted TE), Sellers, Brown (converted DL), Gardner, Voss, Bedford (converted walk-on DL), Claytor, Yandell, and Gilbert played the majority of snaps at OL in 2008-09 when we won 20 games in 2 seasons. Of that group, only Gardner played NFL ball, to my knowledge. Howard eventually played for CPJ, as did Uzzi. They all played very well quickly for CPJ.

None of the players I mentioned were recruited by CPJ. Bedford was already on the team and Uzzi was recruited by Gailey and was a Freshman in 2008. Cord was All ACC in 2008, so he played plenty.

Let's be clear here, the roster was well stocked with ACC calibre offensive lineman when CPJ took over from Gailey. The OL was a strength under Gailey and helped the transition in a big way. To suggest that the line that CPJ left behind was remotely close to the one he inherited is completely false.

 

[forensicbuzz]

None of the players I mentioned were recruited by CPJ. Bedford was already on the team and Uzzi was recruited by Gailey and was a Freshman in 2008. Cord was All ACC in 2008, so he played plenty.

Let's be clear here, the roster was well stocked with ACC calibre offensive lineman when CPJ took over from Gailey. The OL was a strength under Gailey and helped the transition in a big way. To suggest that the line that CPJ left behind was remotely close to the one he inherited is completely false.

I agree, Gailey had a great OL when he was fired. I do remember CPJ saying he needed lighter, faster tackles, and so there was some transition from what Gailey had to what Johnson wanted.

 

[cpf2001]

Nice of Gailey to recruit a 2-star who was flexible enough to get second team All-ACC his first year under a new scheme under Johnson . (And first team in year 2.)

I think that says as much about good coaches being able to figure out how to use guys to have success relatively quickly (vs bad coaches pounding square pegs into round holes) as it does talent stockpiles.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Gailey was very good at evaluating talent. There's no question about that. I think if he would have turned the offense loose to a creative mind, he would have won 3-4 more games a year. We had a very opportunistic defense.

 

[stinger78]

None of the players I mentioned were recruited by CPJ. Bedford was already on the team and Uzzi was recruited by Gailey and was a Freshman in 2008. Cord was All ACC in 2008, so he played plenty.

Let's be clear here, the roster was well stocked with ACC calibre offensive lineman when CPJ took over from Gailey. The OL was a strength under Gailey and helped the transition in a big way. To suggest that the line that CPJ left behind was remotely close to the one he inherited is completely false.

Cord may well have played in 08, but I thought it was later. Yes, CCG recruited Uzzi but CPJ did as well and signed him in his first class. I agree with your point, but those OL transitioned quickly, whether they were OL from the start or converted from another position. Brown, Barrick, and Bedford were all converted and contributed well. This is my point. CPJ took what he had on-hand and built a very functional OL very quickly. TFG did not. Part of that was high quality players, part of that was just very good coaching.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

Cord may well have played in 08, but I thought it was later. Yes, CCG recruited Uzzi but CPJ did as well and signed him in his first class. I agree with your point, but those OL transitioned quickly, whether they were OL from the start or converted from another position. Brown, Barrick, and Bedford were all converted and contributed well. This is my point. CPJ took what he had on-hand and built a very functional OL very quickly. TFG did not. Part of that was high quality players, part of that was just very good coaching.

Yes, CPJ and his staff did a great job of coaching the line, but coaching is a lot easier when you have the players to coach.

 

[cpf2001]

I don’t believe that this years line would have been this good without a coaching change - how much potential to do better was wasted the first three years under Collins? Should we have expected a dominant line in year 2 or 3? No, but we could have seen significant progress.

At the time 2007 was a very demoralizing season. Started high, then just seemed to undo all the progress of the last three years. And the pass-first QB we’d been waiting for transferred away after spring practice, IIRC, leaving us with another inept offense. That 2008 team was expected by many to be a rebuild that would be more Gardner Webb than Miami due to similar concerns of talent/scheme mismatches and a lot of reliance on FR at skill positions.

We’re looking at the folks left going into 2008 with hindsight that is informed by what Johnson was able to get them to do. I think we should apply similar hindsight based on 2023 to our expectations for 2020 and 2021.

 

[billga99]

I don’t believe that this years line would have been this good without a coaching change - how much potential to do better was wasted the first three years under Collins? Should we have expected a dominant line in year 2 or 3? No, but we could have seen significant progress.

At the time 2007 was a very demoralizing season. Started high, then just seemed to undo all the progress of the last three years. And the pass-first QB we’d been waiting for transferred away after spring practice, IIRC, leaving us with another inept offense. That 2008 team was expected by many to be a rebuild that would be more Gardner Webb than Miami due to similar concerns of talent/scheme mismatches and a lot of reliance on FR at skill positions.

We’re looking at the folks left going into 2008 with hindsight that is informed by what Johnson was able to get them to do. I think we should apply similar hindsight based on 2023 to our expectations for 2020 and 2021.

Interesting enough is I think PJ inherited an even better DL. Gailey could recognize talent just couldn't maximize it.

Four Georgia Tech players were selected Sunday in the 2009 NFL draft. Defensive end Michael Johnson was taken in the third round by the Cincinnati Bengals, offensive tackle Andrew Gardner in the sixth round by the Miami Dolphins, defensive tackle defensive tackle Vance Walker in the seventh round by the Atlanta Falcons, and defensive tackle Darryl Richard in the seventh round by the New England Patriots.

 

[stinger78]

Interesting enough is I think PJ inherited an even better DL. Gailey could recognize talent just couldn't maximize it.

Four Georgia Tech players were selected Sunday in the 2009 NFL draft. Defensive end Michael Johnson was taken in the third round by the Cincinnati Bengals, offensive tackle Andrew Gardner in the sixth round by the Miami Dolphins, defensive tackle defensive tackle Vance Walker in the seventh round by the Atlanta Falcons, and defensive tackle Darryl Richard in the seventh round by the New England Patriots.

Derrick Morgan went the next year, I think in the 2nd round.

 

[Towaliga]

Not true at all with Johnson. We played a walk on at center and converted people to be tackles because the talent we had on the oline was equally not suited to his style of offense

I’m a believer that the OL talent at the beginning of the TFG Debacle was better (maybe significantly better) than what TFG claimed. I think he was looking for excuses from day 1 to cover his shortcomings.