Brent Key is not the answer

[7979]

Yes, it is.

When Paul was hired I heard a load of people here and elsewhere who said they didn't mind a few down seasons - and they meant losing seasons - if Tech could occasionally grab the gold ring. That is exactly what Paul delivered, first with Gailey's players - that, btw, he knew how to use - and then with his own. And what that got us was a lot of people who "didn't like the offense" and wanted to play "big boy football" (whatever that means). So Paul never got the support that, for instance, transformed the Duke program. And Tech has been paying the price ever since.

Well, at least Key has the support Tech can muster, however limited that might be. If Paul had gotten a similar level it would be child's play to rev the program up even more today; there would be precedents. The hole Tech dug for the program has gotten bigger and our ability to fill it has gotten more questionable. The program has no one to blame for that; it was an own goal from the getgo. I think Key has a chance to get us back, provided the schedule in future is adjusted. But I don't envy him the job.

This is best post-morten of Tech football I’ve read at the Swarm. We committed D-1 suicide when we fired Paul Johnson.
GT football success is historically a function of the play by our defense. For the past 50 years, we’ve only ever been 7+ win good when we could stop somebody….occasionally.
We are NEVER going to sign 4*, much less 5*, DL guys…If a kid is 6’5” 280+ lbs as a sophomore in HS, he quits taking math….he knows he’s going to play college football so why waste time in geometry or Algebra II…..and it is not enough to sign 1 or 2 of these 4* DL studs ….It takes 4, probably 5 of them as nobody plays more than 35 snaps in todays game.
So you better run the damn ball…protect your defense by running clock…averaging 3 or 4 first downs per drive … 3rd and 4 is a running down type offense …. gee, where would anyone ever find a coach who would do this?
College Football Hall of Fame is a mile or two south of Tech campus. That guy has a 2023 plaque inside.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Most of our assistants are mid-career. Do you think any of them would be forced on Key?

You’re given a limited amount of money to hire assistants. Keeping Thacker may have been a strategic, lesser of evils, attempt to judiciously allocate these limited funds.

Remember that the whole process with Collins and his assistant staff as they transitioned to a new coach involved a very hands-on process by the President and new AD.

Obviously I have no inside info but I find it hard to believe Key was told you can hire any DC in the nation you want and money is no option and Key said, “Great, Thacker is my first choice.”

 

[GT33]

This is best post-morten of Tech football I’ve read at the Swarm. We committed D-1 suicide when we fired Paul Johnson.
GT football success is historically a function of the play by our defense. For the past 50 years, we’ve only ever been 7+ win good when we could stop somebody….occasionally.
We are NEVER going to sign 4*, much less 5*, DL guys…If a kid is 6’5” 280+ lbs as a sophomore in HS, he quits taking math….he knows he’s going to play college football so why waste time in geometry or Algebra II…..and it is not enough to sign 1 or 2 of these 4* DL studs ….It takes 4, probably 5 of them as nobody plays more than 35 snaps in todays game.
So you better run the damn ball…protect your defense by running clock…averaging 3 or 4 first downs per drive … 3rd and 4 is a running down type offense …. gee, where would anyone ever find a coach who would do this?
College Football Hall of Fame is a mile or two south of Tech campus. That guy has a 2023 plaque inside.

The decision to play "big boy" football was not a bad decision in and of itself, the execution was horrible. We needed about $250M in cash upfront. The starategy to that is not hard- the answer lies 1,000 miles to the west.

Option 2 (2 versions) and the more likely successful option was to stop destroying our program from within with delusions of magically reverting back to 1990. The world moved on & GT missed the boat. We could have either stayed the course and stopped divisively ripping ourselves apart by referring to our own program as inferior OR slowly transitioned away from it with a hybrid transition integrating increasing more passing over the years until we completed the cycle.

We we did was idiotic. Poor, misguided, incompetent leaders do what we did. We has 3 basic choices and in typical GT fashion we picked the only one which would not work, this time in doing so may have fatally damaged our program. I hope the people clamoring for the change they so vehemently wanted are ecstatic with their choice because these people will do nothing to help repair the damage they have caused, they will sit on the sidelines bitching and moaning avoiding the fact they created or helped create this debacle.

 

[yeti92]

This is best post-morten of Tech football I’ve read at the Swarm. We committed D-1 suicide when we fired Paul Johnson.
GT football success is historically a function of the play by our defense. For the past 50 years, we’ve only ever been 7+ win good when we could stop somebody….occasionally.
We are NEVER going to sign 4*, much less 5*, DL guys…If a kid is 6’5” 280+ lbs as a sophomore in HS, he quits taking math….he knows he’s going to play college football so why waste time in geometry or Algebra II…..and it is not enough to sign 1 or 2 of these 4* DL studs ….It takes 4, probably 5 of them as nobody plays more than 35 snaps in todays game.
So you better run the damn ball…protect your defense by running clock…averaging 3 or 4 first downs per drive … 3rd and 4 is a running down type offense …. gee, where would anyone ever find a coach who would do this?
College Football Hall of Fame is a mile or two south of Tech campus. That guy has a 2023 plaque inside.

Agree with the general sentiment, but for the sake of correctness, CPJ wasn't fired, he was starved of resources until he quit. Also we have actually recruited a decent amount of 4 star DL, unfortunately they have overwhelmingly been busts or transferred out. Not counting guys who were committed for 2024 and just decommitted, Miles and Lockett in 2022 were the most recent, and Lockett is getting some playing time but Miles was down the depth chart and has transferred to Temple. Kevin Harris was a 4 star from Bama who seems to be the classic practice warrior.

Jared Ivey transferred.

Antonneous Clayton was a 4/5star out of high school but never produced for us.

Justice Dingle and TK Chimedza in 2018
Jaquan Henderson in 2017
Jordan Woods in 2016
Anree Saint Amour in 2015
Francis Kallon in 2012
Jabari Hunt-Days in 2011
Denzel McCoy and Ant Williams in 2010

Not a lot of production from this group.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

That's not how to read that.
DFEI says Liberty and GT's defenses are basically equivalent using strength of schedule adjustments.
Liberty's unadjusted defensive statistics are much better than GT's, but due to the different in strength of schedule GT's final DFEI is higher than most of its metrics and Liberty's is lower than most of its metrics.

Liberty's unadjusted metrics are in the 20-40's while GT's (with one exception) are in the 100-120's. Once both teams numbers are adjusted for SoS GT comes out at 85 and Liberty at 86. (Both -.12)

Overall Efficiency, OFEI and DFEI and special teams efficiency (SFEI) are all SoS adjusted numbers.
The FEI metrics say that if Liberty and GT played the same schedule their defenses would basically be the same, while Liberty's offense (OFEI .50, 19th) would be alot better than GT's offense (OFEI -.19, 65th).
GT's special teams (.13, 57th) would be alot better than Liberty's (.04, 122nd).
Overall efficiency is Liberty (.06, 56th) and GT (-.18, 83rd). Overall, FEI would expect Liberty to perform better than GT if they faced the same schedule.

I know. I was stating that Liberty's defense was worse than ours. It is. My point with the SoS is that it allows a shiny 8-0 record to look like you've actually accomplished something. We'd likely be bowling with Liberty's schedule.

 

[stinger78]

I know. I was stating that Liberty's defense was worse than ours. It is. My point with the SoS is that it allows a shiny 8-0 record to look like you've actually accomplished something. We'd likely be bowling with Liberty's schedule.

We could go bowling with our schedule if the team would focus and play like it can against the teams it should beat.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

We could go bowling with our schedule if the team would focus and play like it can against the teams it should beat.

The only teams on our schedule that we "should beat" are SCSU, BG, uva, and MAYBE BC. BC, Syracuse, and Wake are very close to us right now, way too close to count as guaranteed wins. We beat Wake as an underdog and we were gifted a win from Miami. This team is not very good yet, but even so, we'd feast on Liberty's schedule.

 

[slugboy]

I know. I was stating that Liberty's defense was worse than ours. It is. My point with the SoS is that it allows a shiny 8-0 record to look like you've actually accomplished something. We'd likely be bowling with Liberty's schedule.

I think we would be bowling, but I also think we “minimax”. If we’re playing someone we think is good, there’s high motivation and we practice hard. If it’s a weaker team, we slack off a bit. sometimes it’s called playing to the level of your competition.

I’d say more of that is on the players—it’s something I see a lot from high school and college students. It’s a tough habit to break

 

[7979]

Agree with the general sentiment, but for the sake of correctness, CPJ wasn't fired, he was starved of resources until he quit. Also we have actually recruited a decent amount of 4 star DL, unfortunately they have overwhelmingly been busts or transferred out. Not counting guys who were committed for 2024 and just decommitted, Miles and Lockett in 2022 were the most recent, and Lockett is getting some playing time but Miles was down the depth chart and has transferred to Temple. Kevin Harris was a 4 star from Bama who seems to be the classic practice warrior.

Jared Ivey transferred.

Antonneous Clayton was a 4/5star out of high school but never produced for us.

Justice Dingle and TK Chimedza in 2018
Jaquan Henderson in 2017
Jordan Woods in 2016
Anree Saint Amour in 2015
Francis Kallon in 2012
Jabari Hunt-Days in 2011
Denzel McCoy and Ant Williams in 2010

Not a lot of production from this group.

Yeti
The 14 4* DL guys you mention is our haul covering 15 recruiting seasons....to play ALA or UGA or Clemson defense, you must sign 2 EACH year....that is why I am a proponent of playing a 2-5-4 and bringing 6 or 7 on every play. We can never stop anybody for 60 mins playing bend-but-don't-break....oh well...hope Brent gets better. Right now we are unwatchable....

 

[stinger78]

The only teams on our schedule that we "should beat" are SCSU, BG, uva, and MAYBE BC. BC, Syracuse, and Wake are very close to us right now, way too close to count as guaranteed wins. We beat Wake as an underdog and were gifted a win from Miami. This team is not very good yet, but even so, we'd feast on Liberty's schedule.

Probably should have typed could beat. We could be bowling if we beat the teams we could beat. The only one we’ve played so far not in that category is Ole Miss and we hung with them for 3.5 quarters.
Despite the W/L, this team is much more competitive than it was in 2021. IMPO, that is due to the improved O and ST.

 

[Techster]

Yeti
The 14 4* DL guys you mention is our haul covering 15 recruiting seasons....to play ALA or UGA or Clemson defense, you must sign 2 EACH year....that is why I am a proponent of playing a 2-5-4 and bringing 6 or 7 on every play. We can never stop anybody for 60 mins playing bend-but-don't-break....oh well...hope Brent gets better. Right now we are unwatchable....

The 3-4 defense gets a bad rap at GT, mainly due to Al Groh, but I've always thought the right 3-4 scheme would do well at GT due to our DL recruiting issues.

I think we actually had the guy for it, but the timing was off. Nate Woody, who is currently Army's DC, has an attacking 3-4 that I think would work well at GT. Woody just didn't have enough time at GT (was here a year then CPJ retired). He DC'd Army's defense starting in 2020. His DFEI numbers since then: 2020 #27, 2021 #73, 2022 #91, 2023 #90. DFEI seems to have declined every year, but Woody is also working with the constraints of the Army academy.


EDIT:

I updated the DFEI rankings. Seems I forgot to click on the defensive stats and originally listed the overall FEI stats.

 

[LargeFO]

The 3-4 defense gets a bad rap at GT, mainly due to Al Groh, but I've always thought the right 3-4 scheme would do well at GT due to our DL recruiting issues.

I think we actually had the guy for it, but the timing was off. Nate Woody, who is currently Army's DC, has an attacking 3-4 that I think would work well at GT. Woody just didn't have enough time at GT (was here a year then CPJ retired). He DC'd Army's defense starting in 2020. His DFEI numbers since then: 2020 #27, 2021 #73, 2022 #91, 2023 #90. DFEI seems to have declined every year, but Woody is also working with the constraints of the Army academy.


EDIT:

I updated the DFEI rankings. Seems I forgot to click on the defensive stats and originally listed the overall FEI stats.

Yeah I have always felt we have much better odds of having one effective DT than two.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Probably should have typed could beat. We could be bowling if we beat the teams we could beat. The only one we’ve played so far not in that category is Ole Miss and we hung with them for 3.5 quarters.
Despite the W/L, this team is much more competitive than it was in 2021. IMPO, that is due to the improved O and ST.

I don't completely disagree with this.

IMO there were three teams on our schedule that should have been penciled in as definite wins: SCSU, BG, and UVA.

There were four teams that should have been penciled in as definite losses: Clemson, Ole Miss, Miami, and uga.

There were two teams that should have been penciled in as high probability of losing but competitive game: Louisville and UNC.

That left three games against near peers: BC, SU and WF.

Had we handled business with the "wins" we would have had to sweep the "peers" or picked off some others to make a bowl, meaning things would have to break in our direction for that to happen.

My point was that, if we played Liberty's schedule, we'd have to fail forward to MISS a bowl. That being said, this team has definitely shown a propensity for failing forward...

 

[Techastrophe]

You have athlete talent, you have coaching talent, and you have The Program. An incomplete list of things that make up The Program:
- culture among the student athletes
- culture among the coaches and staff
- recruiting and retention
- non-coaching staff
- training, nutrition, academics support
- boosters
- facilities, equipment, uniforms
- fans

Some of that is on the THC but a good Program is going to sustain itself unless the THC is stupid and kills it.

I don't get the feeling that the Program was especially robust under CPJ. It was sufficient for some success but there were also some notable failures.

Then GT hired a guy in 2018 and gave him a 7 year contract because "biggest transformation" and all that. Part of the sales pitch on the guy was what he would do for the Program. Three and 1/3 seasons in, I think there would have been more understanding about athlete talent issues and coaching talent issues if it wasn't clear that the Program was a dumpster fire.

We did a partial reboot of the reboot. That was a step back for Program. A necessary one, but still a step back.

I don't think you build on athlete talent or coaching talent until your Program is solid and people are invested in effective processes and culture. Unfortunately from the fan perspective it's not so clear as athlete stats and coaching stats. There are some signs of improvement, and some signs that make you wonder.

But since this is a THC thread I will bring it back to Key. He is a big part of making the program work, but if it's all on him to make it work, then it's not all on him if we fail. I don't know if there is a manager of all this. Errin Joe is listed as general manager, but that might be mainly personnel oriented. Who does Key have around him saying "this is GT football"?

If I could make a change it wouldn't be replacing Key as the THC, it would be bringing in someone like Tashard Choice as Program Director.

 

[Techster]

My point was that, if we played Liberty's schedule, we'd have to fail forward to MISS a bowl. That being said, this team has definitely shown a propensity for failing forward...

I don't think I like that statement. IF GT played Liberty's schedule with GT talent, yes we probably go bowling easily. However, if GT plays Liberty's schedule with Liberty's talent I'm not so sure.

It's a really hard "apples to apples" comparison to make given all the different factors involved.

 

[Vespidae]

Who does Key have around him saying "this is GT football"?

There used to be an Asst AD for football, and there’s all the other functions like football ops, travel, etc … but I haven’t checked up since J Batt took over.

I think your point is a valid one.

 

[33jacket]

Nah. The ideal dt to get in a 3-4 that works is far harder than getting 2 3 techs in a 4-3.

The best 3-4 have dts tech would never get in. Period. An ideal 0tech that can move and anchor a 3-4 i have never seen here in the past 30 years

I have seen really good 3techs here in multiples. Playing with each other

Tech is a 4-3 school. Period. Imo

 

[yeti92]

You have athlete talent, you have coaching talent, and you have The Program. An incomplete list of things that make up The Program:
- culture among the student athletes
- culture among the coaches and staff
- recruiting and retention
- non-coaching staff
- training, nutrition, academics support
- boosters
- facilities, equipment, uniforms
- fans

Some of that is on the THC but a good Program is going to sustain itself unless the THC is stupid and kills it.

I don't get the feeling that the Program was especially robust under CPJ. It was sufficient for some success but there were also some notable failures.

Then GT hired a guy in 2018 and gave him a 7 year contract because "biggest transformation" and all that. Part of the sales pitch on the guy was what he would do for the Program. Three and 1/3 seasons in, I think there would have been more understanding about athlete talent issues and coaching talent issues if it wasn't clear that the Program was a dumpster fire.

We did a partial reboot of the reboot. That was a step back for Program. A necessary one, but still a step back.

I don't think you build on athlete talent or coaching talent until your Program is solid and people are invested in effective processes and culture. Unfortunately from the fan perspective it's not so clear as athlete stats and coaching stats. There are some signs of improvement, and some signs that make you wonder.

But since this is a THC thread I will bring it back to Key. He is a big part of making the program work, but if it's all on him to make it work, then it's not all on him if we fail. I don't know if there is a manager of all this. Errin Joe is listed as general manager, but that might be mainly personnel oriented. Who does Key have around him saying "this is GT football"?

If I could make a change it wouldn't be replacing Key as the THC, it would be bringing in someone like Tashard Choice as Program Director.

I'm not sure what all this Mary Jane talk has to do with Key...

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

You have athlete talent, you have coaching talent, and you have The Program. An incomplete list of things that make up The Program:
- culture among the student athletes
- culture among the coaches and staff
- recruiting and retention
- non-coaching staff
- training, nutrition, academics support
- boosters
- facilities, equipment, uniforms
- fans

Some of that is on the THC but a good Program is going to sustain itself unless the THC is stupid and kills it.

I don't get the feeling that the Program was especially robust under CPJ. It was sufficient for some success but there were also some notable failures.

Then GT hired a guy in 2018 and gave him a 7 year contract because "biggest transformation" and all that. Part of the sales pitch on the guy was what he would do for the Program. Three and 1/3 seasons in, I think there would have been more understanding about athlete talent issues and coaching talent issues if it wasn't clear that the Program was a dumpster fire.

We did a partial reboot of the reboot. That was a step back for Program. A necessary one, but still a step back.

I don't think you build on athlete talent or coaching talent until your Program is solid and people are invested in effective processes and culture. Unfortunately from the fan perspective it's not so clear as athlete stats and coaching stats. There are some signs of improvement, and some signs that make you wonder.

But since this is a THC thread I will bring it back to Key. He is a big part of making the program work, but if it's all on him to make it work, then it's not all on him if we fail. I don't know if there is a manager of all this. Errin Joe is listed as general manager, but that might be mainly personnel oriented. Who does Key have around him saying "this is GT football"?

If I could make a change it wouldn't be replacing Key as the THC, it would be bringing in someone like Tashard Choice as Program Director.

You've hit on some points that probably merit it's own thread. We've had some discussion here over the years about the roles Presidents, ADs, HCs, and staff have and somewhat about how they interface. Braine had issues seeing GT as being able to truly be relevant in college football. DRad had good ideas for moving us in the right direction but was often handicapped by the president. MBob did his level best to starve CPJ out and TStan didn't do nearly enough nearly fast enough to solve the systemic issues. Cabrera and JBatt seem to say the right things and seem to be doing the right things so far, but as you said the program was a raging inferno of a dumpster fire by that point so rebuilding a program will take a while.

Maybe changing out some of the support staff is the answer. It's also entirely possible that we already have the right guys in those places but we won't see the payoff for another season or two. Only time will tell.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

You have athlete talent, you have coaching talent, and you have The Program. An incomplete list of things that make up The Program:
- culture among the student athletes
- culture among the coaches and staff
- recruiting and retention
- non-coaching staff
- training, nutrition, academics support
- boosters
- facilities, equipment, uniforms
- fans

Some of that is on the THC but a good Program is going to sustain itself unless the THC is stupid and kills it.

I don't get the feeling that the Program was especially robust under CPJ. It was sufficient for some success but there were also some notable failures.

Then GT hired a guy in 2018 and gave him a 7 year contract because "biggest transformation" and all that. Part of the sales pitch on the guy was what he would do for the Program. Three and 1/3 seasons in, I think there would have been more understanding about athlete talent issues and coaching talent issues if it wasn't clear that the Program was a dumpster fire.

We did a partial reboot of the reboot. That was a step back for Program. A necessary one, but still a step back.

I don't think you build on athlete talent or coaching talent until your Program is solid and people are invested in effective processes and culture. Unfortunately from the fan perspective it's not so clear as athlete stats and coaching stats. There are some signs of improvement, and some signs that make you wonder.

But since this is a THC thread I will bring it back to Key. He is a big part of making the program work, but if it's all on him to make it work, then it's not all on him if we fail. I don't know if there is a manager of all this. Errin Joe is listed as general manager, but that might be mainly personnel oriented. Who does Key have around him saying "this is GT football"?

If I could make a change it wouldn't be replacing Key as the THC, it would be bringing in someone like Tashard Choice as Program Director.

But THC isn’t legal in this state.