BC Post Game Melt Down Thread

kalld12

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While I admit that he has shown some progress on the accuracy of his short throws, he has no touch to the passes. The pass that Carter dropped, Graham threw it with the same velocity as if he was trying to throw 40 yards downfield even though Carter was only 5-10 yards out. He also had plenty of throws that were way off target so he is still inconsistent at best.

I like Graham and fully expected him to start at the beginning of the year and I believe he has improved from last year, but the reality is Sims is a better overall QB. Sims still makes freshman mistakes and has been a little loose with the ball at times but Graham did some dumb things too this last game. We already mentioned the decision to run on 4th and 13. He also made a stupid decision to flip the ball over a defender to Gibbs as he was being tackled. Gibbs was able to catch it and make a play (even though Graham was actually down) but that was a bad decision and he was lucky it was not a pick 6. Point is that Graham didn't show us anything that says he deserves to play over Sims.
Did you not watch any of last year? You lost me at "no touch to the passes". Seriously, go back and watch last years games. At first it was, "he cant throw short/intermediate passes", now that hes shown progress were coming up with other stupid lies, typical. Yes, he's quick to run, BUT lets not get things mixed here, Graham stayed in the pocket many games last year and delivered beautiful strikes to AB. AB had 7 TD passes from JG last year, Sims just last game finally connected on his first TD to AB. To imply he has no touch or cant compete with Sims is crazy. Graham is back now, he was dealing with some "personal matters" over the last 4 weeks. I believe Sims will continue to start, but if Sims keeps turning the ball over CGC will have no choice but see what JG/TG can do with a full game.
 

kalld12

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482
Some of y'all are absolutely ridiculous with your crapping on Graham for his mistakes and giving him no credit on the things he did right, and doing the exact opposite for Sims. Does Sims have a higher ceiling? Yea probably. Is Sims the qb of the future? Yea probably. Does Graham need to start over Sims? No, probably not. But good god give the man some credit, he came in late in the game and scored some points without turning the ball over and showed improvement over where he was at last year.
Double standard here with Sims vs. Graham. Sims has arguably played worse with how many turnovers he has, but the upside is there. The question is, how long until all the posters turn on Sims? I continue to be in favor of Graham, BUT i've given Sims plenty of chance to prove "he's it" and I continue to see 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
 

gt13

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Sims has only played 6 collegiate games and is a true freshman who didn’t even get a normal spring practice. He’s completing 55% of his passes and has had some bad INT luck and inconsistent OL play. He’s doing better than I thought he would and I am confident he is going to continue to improve.
 

Skeptic

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Some of y'all are absolutely ridiculous with your crapping on Graham for his mistakes and giving him no credit on the things he did right, and doing the exact opposite for Sims. Does Sims have a higher ceiling? Yea probably. Is Sims the qb of the future? Yea probably. Does Graham need to start over Sims? No, probably not. But good god give the man some credit, he came in late in the game and scored some points without turning the ball over and showed improvement over where he was at last year.
Maybe it is time for the head ball coach to decide whether he wants a playmaker or a game manager at QB. Given our luck so far, I would opt for the game manager and if I recall from two years ago when I forced myself to watch two recorded Temple games, a game manager is what he had. Not a great w/l record but still, won more than he lost. I would settle at this point for a competitive football team, and I don't think anybody thinks this is what we signed on for. p.s. Collins still doesn't look like a head coach. He just doesn't.
 

lv20gt

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And Graham dispelled the notion he can't throw the short and intermediate passes.

The notion about Graham and short and intermediate passes was whether he could be consistent enough with them to sustain drives, not whether he could complete them at all. He completed some short and intermediate passes last year but not enough to consistently move the ball hence our struggles on offense (along with other factors).

Against BC Graham got 4 drives.

1 was a three and out.
1 was a good drive getting 7 points
1 was a and okay drive on a short field with one earned first down and one first down via penalty that fizzled. In a different situation we probably go for a FG and might get point.
1 was a 4 and out

Yes he was good on one drive, and overall made some nice plays but he also had issues sustaining drives. Even on his best drive where we scored a TD it was a 4th and 7 on our own 48. If it isn't a 28 point game and BC starting to play some back ups that is likely a 3 and out as well. That drive also saw us have another 4th and 9 as well which in a different situation would have probably been a FGA.

Graham showed flashes of potential last year enough where if he was the starter this year I think he could develop into a good QB for us. But he had big issues being consistent enough to move the ball, and that was still an issue again against BC.
 

Jacket05

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Did you not watch any of last year? You lost me at "no touch to the passes". Seriously, go back and watch last years games. At first it was, "he cant throw short/intermediate passes", now that hes shown progress were coming up with other stupid lies, typical. Yes, he's quick to run, BUT lets not get things mixed here, Graham stayed in the pocket many games last year and delivered beautiful strikes to AB. AB had 7 TD passes from JG last year, Sims just last game finally connected on his first TD to AB. To imply he has no touch or cant compete with Sims is crazy. Graham is back now, he was dealing with some "personal matters" over the last 4 weeks. I believe Sims will continue to start, but if Sims keeps turning the ball over CGC will have no choice but see what JG/TG can do with a full game.
If you read my comment I stated that he struggles with touch on the short throws not the deep ball. He has been pretty good at the deep ball which accounted for most if not all of Browns 7 TD last year. The issue is he throws short passes with the same "touch" as his deep passes which make it harder to catch. I said Carter should have caught the ball but it was not as easy of a catch as people make it seem cause the ball was thrown with too much force for a pass that short. While Graham had some accurate throws he also had some that were way off (including a deep ball to an open receiver that he threw about 10 yards out of bounds). Graham also made some really poor decisions and is fortunate he didn't have a turnover on the flip to Gibbs.

Sims on the other hand is much better on the short/intermediate passes but has struggled with the deep ball. Sims did show some progress on the deep ball the last two weeks.

My main point is that both QBs have strengths and weaknesses but I feel like Sims has shown he is the better overall QB than Graham. That being said Sims still NEEDS to get better at not losing the ball.
 

WreckinGT

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The notion about Graham and short and intermediate passes was whether he could be consistent enough with them to sustain drives, not whether he could complete them at all. He completed some short and intermediate passes last year but not enough to consistently move the ball hence our struggles on offense (along with other factors).

Against BC Graham got 4 drives.

1 was a three and out.
1 was a good drive getting 7 points
1 was a and okay drive on a short field with one earned first down and one first down via penalty that fizzled. In a different situation we probably go for a FG and might get point.
1 was a 4 and out

Yes he was good on one drive, and overall made some nice plays but he also had issues sustaining drives. Even on his best drive where we scored a TD it was a 4th and 7 on our own 48. If it isn't a 28 point game and BC starting to play some back ups that is likely a 3 and out as well. That drive also saw us have another 4th and 9 as well which in a different situation would have probably been a FGA.

Graham showed flashes of potential last year enough where if he was the starter this year I think he could develop into a good QB for us. But he had big issues being consistent enough to move the ball, and that was still an issue again against BC.
Blaming the three and out on Graham when he threw a perfect ball for a first down that was dropped seems a bit unfair. I also wish you would hold Sims to the same standard as Graham. Sure Graham needed to convert some 4th downs. Sims also needed to convert a 4th down on one of his scoring drives and only did so because of an idiotic roughing the passer penalty. For some reason you don't bring that up when talking about his PPD.
 

gt02

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634
The notion about Graham and short and intermediate passes was whether he could be consistent enough with them to sustain drives, not whether he could complete them at all. He completed some short and intermediate passes last year but not enough to consistently move the ball hence our struggles on offense (along with other factors).

Against BC Graham got 4 drives.

1 was a three and out.
1 was a good drive getting 7 points
1 was a and okay drive on a short field with one earned first down and one first down via penalty that fizzled. In a different situation we probably go for a FG and might get point.
1 was a 4 and out

Yes he was good on one drive, and overall made some nice plays but he also had issues sustaining drives. Even on his best drive where we scored a TD it was a 4th and 7 on our own 48. If it isn't a 28 point game and BC starting to play some back ups that is likely a 3 and out as well. That drive also saw us have another 4th and 9 as well which in a different situation would have probably been a FGA.

Graham showed flashes of potential last year enough where if he was the starter this year I think he could develop into a good QB for us. But he had big issues being consistent enough to move the ball, and that was still an issue again against BC.
I am not sure of your point. If it is that Graham was not great, I probably agree. But the question (I think) is whether Graham should be given more of a shot. If anything, the data above suggests he should. The key point is that he did not turn it over and got some production. I personally think the production was as much as Sims, given that Sims's second touchdown relied on a dumb roughing the passer penalty, but I understand that we could debate that issue forever and that's not really the point. I just see turnovers as killing any momentum and confidence, and we need to focus on reducing those.
 

4shotB

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Y'all are missing a key and perhaps lurking variable here. Has anyone else but me noticed that Graham is better than Sims in the blue pants while Sims is better than Graham in the gold pants. If you don't dive deep enough into the data, the obvious can become blurry.
 

lv20gt

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Blaming the three and out on Graham when he threw a perfect ball for a first down that was dropped seems a bit unfair. I also wish you would hold Sims to the same standard as Graham. Sure Graham needed to convert some 4th downs. Sims also needed to convert a 4th down on one of his scoring drives and only did so because of an idiotic roughing the passer penalty. For some reason you don't bring that up when talking about his PPD.


Sims was working with the same receivers, and I also didn't mention the dropped passes when he throws them also. I also don't bring up that Mason was responsible for one of the drives ending when talking about his ppd or that his INT very likely shouldn't have been ruled an INT either.

Graham isn't just being judged for his play this year. We saw him extensively last year where he had issues sustaining drives. What he needs to show is the ability to sustain drives consistently. Now there is only so much you can address in terms of consistently in 4 drives overall, but the 3 and out, even if not entirely reliant on his play, doesn't support the idea that he has improved in that area and the other drives, to me, don't really impress me in that regard. The situation has to be considered. We almost certainly don't go for a 4th and 7 from our own side of the field with the game on the line. If you want to point out we don't go for it on 4th in Sims' case either then I would see the point although I would point out we did go for it on our first drive in pretty much that exact situation.

But if you want to take those points away from both and look at ppd or give a FG instead for both and look at ppd then be my guest. If we punt in both cases then Sims is at 1.75 and Graham is at 0. If we give them credit for FGs on those two drives then Sims is at 2.125 to Graham being at .75. If we give them both credit for the drive ending in FG range that we didn't get a FG for then Sims is at 3 ppd to Graham's 2.5. We could take away the TD from each and give each credit for the FG. In pretty much any scenario the ppd favors Sims.

I am not sure of your point. If it is that Graham was not great, I probably agree. But the question (I think) is whether Graham should be given more of a shot. If anything, the data above suggests he should. The key point is that he did not turn it over and got some production. I personally think the production was as much as Sims, given that Sims's second touchdown relied on a dumb roughing the passer penalty,

And Graham's relied on the pass interference as well. Like I mentioned above, Sims has the better PPD in pretty much any case. Sims over the course of the year has produced significantly more than Graham was able to last year. Against BC when they both played Sims produced more as well.

Sims was in for 39 plays over his 8 drives (not including the last run out the clock drive of the first half) and those 8 drives produced 286 yards or 7.3 yards per play. Now obviously that includes some penalty yards so if we were to be as precise as possible we'd go back and take that out, and if you want be my guest).
Graham was in 4 drives, 23 plays and produced 126 yards for 5.5 yards per play (again penalties included).

Sims is simply more effective than Graham. Graham doesn't turn the ball over, but that isn't enough for what we need. Not turning the ball just to punt isn't going to win us anything with our defense. And in terms of being given more of a shot, QB isn't proportional. It's not like players earn 20% of the snaps. If we go with Graham then we go completely with him, but that should only be if he's the better option than Sims, which he isn't. Now if you mean he should be getting the minutes that Yates had gotten previously, then whatever. He did look better than Yates, although Yates had less than great situations to come in to say the least.

I just see turnovers as killing any momentum and confidence, and we need to focus on reducing those.

Yes, we need to reduce thoughts, but not at the expense of being able to somewhat consistently move the ball. That's what we had last year, and it was worse than what we have now.
 

FlatsLander

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I don't think you get anything with Graham that you don't get with Sims. Sims has a better feel for the route concepts and the shorter to intermediate passes, plus I think he's a bit shiftier when scrambling out. I do wonder if he's not loud enough with his cadence or something because of all the false starts (especially with reduced or no crowds). Sims is also very turnover prone, at least so far. Maybe it's just bad luck that they've all occurred so close together and he'll get it fixed the rest of the season.
 

dmel25

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477
Sims has a better feel for the route concepts and the shorter to intermediate passes, plus I think he's a bit shiftier when scrambling out.
Agree with the first part. Strong disagree with the second part. Graham was way more elusive and better on the run than we have seen from Sims this year, in my opinion. There have been several plays where Sims just gets wrapped up and goes to the ground where Graham likely would have slipped away or fought for more yards.
 

TheTechGuy

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I don't think you get anything with Graham that you don't get with Sims. Sims has a better feel for the route concepts and the shorter to intermediate passes, plus I think he's a bit shiftier when scrambling out. I do wonder if he's not loud enough with his cadence or something because of all the false starts (especially with reduced or no crowds). Sims is also very turnover prone, at least so far. Maybe it's just bad luck that they've all occurred so close together and he'll get it fixed the rest of the season.
I’m not calling for Graham to start, but to be fair to him, evidence suggests you get less turnovers with Graham.

Sims is tied for second in the country in interceptions and leads the country in fumbles, 10 and 6 respectively. We can note that not all of those are directly his fault, but that’s likely the case with everyone else in the country. For perspective, Graham had 7 INTs and 7 fumbles over 11 games last year. Though, he didn’t play every offensive down of all 11 games.
 

FlatsLander

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Agree with the first part. Strong disagree with the second part. Graham was way more elusive and better on the run than we have seen from Sims this year, in my opinion. There have been several plays where Sims just gets wrapped up and goes to the ground where Graham likely would have slipped away or fought for more yards.
Fair enough, though I think Sims is still our leading rusher, right?
 

dmel25

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477
Fair enough, though I think Sims is still our leading rusher, right?
I would think it is Gibbs, but I could be wrong. Don't know the stats. I am just going by the eye test right now. Just this weekend there was a down where Sims took the ball to run with it towards the sidelines and instead of putting his head down and getting the first down he just slowed down and got stuffed. Graham always felt elusive and would spin out of tackles and fight for the first down.
 

FlatsLander

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I would think it is Gibbs, but I could be wrong. Don't know the stats. I am just going by the eye test right now. Just this weekend there was a down where Sims took the ball to run with it towards the sidelines and instead of putting his head down and getting the first down he just slowed down and got stuffed. Graham always felt elusive and would spin out of tackles and fight for the first down.
Graham might be improved from last year, but I remember him doing something similar (not knowing where the marker was) last year. Altogether, they're probably pretty close, but I think Sims' ceiling is higher.
 

dmel25

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477
Graham might be improved from last year, but I remember him doing something similar (not knowing where the marker was) last year. Altogether, they're probably pretty close, but I think Sims' ceiling is higher.
Oh no doubt. Sims ceiling is higher, and I think he is the future. I am just pointing out the differences. I really liked Graham's running ability and how he fought for yards, as well as his deep ball. Things I think he does better than Sims at the moment.
 

lv20gt

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I would think it is Gibbs, but I could be wrong. Don't know the stats. I am just going by the eye test right now. Just this weekend there was a down where Sims took the ball to run with it towards the sidelines and instead of putting his head down and getting the first down he just slowed down and got stuffed. Graham always felt elusive and would spin out of tackles and fight for the first down.

Gibbs is our leader now.

Sims is sitting at 69 carries for 275 (4.0 ypc). FWIW the clemson game really hurts with the 13 carries for minus 23.
For comparison though Graham last year had 99 carries for 290 yards (2.9).

They can both run but have different styles. Graham is probably better with quick cuts and moves, like spin, with a bit more burst. Sims is more of a long strider who sets defenders up to have less of a good shot on him and based on my eye test actually has more top end speed although neither has had a real long run to compare. I don't really view either as being overly notable physical runners.

Graham looks like the better runner if you're doing a lot of called runs or plays where him running is a real designed part of the play (option plays) where he's likely to need to put a move or two to fight for some yards. Sims looks like the better runner to take advantage of the defense vacating an area or getting out of position and you want your QB to get as many yards as possible without much risk. I think both are obviously able to do the other as well.
 
Messages
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Sims has only played 6 collegiate games and is a true freshman who didn’t even get a normal spring practice. He’s completing 55% of his passes and has had some bad INT luck and inconsistent OL play. He’s doing better than I thought he would and I am confident he is going to continue to improve.
I agree with your assessment

It isn't close between Sims & Graham, I think the love affair for Graham is that CDP can somehow run some hybrid offense that morphs close to what CPJ did, so we can limit possessions and only lose 38-7 rather than 73-7 (j/k)

Seriously though, in Sims' first Gm vs FSU he completed 68% of his passes, FIRST GAME, if we give Sims decent Pass-Pro he can consistently be a 66 to 75% completion% QB like what you see at - OU, Ohio St, Bama, Clemson, etc - Graham will NEVER be that level of passer, with good Pass-Pro my guess is that Graham's best case scenario is that he'd be a 50 to 55% passer, in fact Graham was Recruited by everyone else as a DB or as a "generic Athlete"

GT Fans have to grow up and stop pining for generic athletes at QB so that we can get cheap yds on Offense from QB runs - we're gonna have to accept CFB as it is in 2020 where your QB is a pass-first Gunslinger that can take over a Gm, even Saban has accepted this and moved away from Gm Managers to Gunslingers (which is the #1 reason KKKirby can't beat him)

I saw KKKirby on the SECrant from an Auburn Fan that was trolling UGA Fans about Kirby's issues with Black QBs

Sims is the real deal, and he's done all this without any help from the TE slot that gives QBs easy throws & high percentage pass routes, for those criticizing Sims, ask yourself how many other Teams in the Top25 would want Sims on their depth chart to potentially start next yr?
 
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