"Bag Men"

[dressedcheeseside]

Hey guys, Bag men are people too!

Bag men lives matter!

 

[Eastman]

All I can think of after reading this thread is how I wish I had enough money to be a bag man (not that I would give away the money if I had it). Must be nice to have so much money that you can buy cars etc for kids you barely know. Just received a tuition bill from Clemson (my daughter) and all I can think is that it will be over in two years. Guess I should have gone to Tech. Then I would have the money but just not use it to buy recruits or even attend games.

 

[TheSilasSonRising]

Where would our evidence come from?

Appears almost everyone involved in this post knows, without question, certain schools are doing it. How do they know, and if they do, why would they not turn them in?

If NCAA refused to act on legitimate cheating, hell, there are plenty of media outlets that would love to run with a verifiable story like that.

As for me, I have no problem in saying I want GT to "keep up with the Jones." Would not impact my degree, my job, my self esteem one bit.

I also know that about 20 or so years ago I asked a relatively high placed person in the GTAA why we did not turn these people into the NCAA. The verbatim response - "because you do not know what they have on you."

We have many, many, many great alumni and friends that have helped GTAA. We need more. And fewer cheap azz takers from the school who do not give back a dime, specifically to the GTAA.

Perhaps it could go back to reevaluating how we accept future students, idk. Just throwing ideas out there.

 

[GTech63]

I also know that about 20 or so years ago I asked a relatively high placed person in the GTAA why we did not turn these people into the NCAA. The verbatim response - "because you do not know what they have on you."

This is why known cooks in our government get away with what they do. Heard on TV the other night from Newt Gingrich that people are afraid what the Clintons may have on them. Sad state of affair.

As far as giving money is concerned I had rather sponsor a child in a third world nation or help pay for a distillation facility or drill a water well in same nation than be a bag man.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Appears almost everyone involved in this post knows, without question, certain schools are doing it. How do they know, and if they do, why would they not turn them in?

If NCAA refused to act on legitimate cheating, hell, there are plenty of media outlets that would love to run with a verifiable story like that.

As for me, I have no problem in saying I want GT to "keep up with the Jones." Would not impact my degree, my job, my self esteem one bit.

I also know that about 20 or so years ago I asked a relatively high placed person in the GTAA why we did not turn these people into the NCAA. The verbatim response - "because you do not know what they have on you."

We have many, many, many great alumni and friends that have helped GTAA. We need more. And fewer cheap azz takers from the school who do not give back a dime, specifically to the GTAA.

Perhaps it could go back to reevaluating how we accept future students, idk. Just throwing ideas out there.

I think it's more accurate to say most here highly suspect this issue is pervasive. I have yet to see anyone come forward claiming to have first hand knowledge of any solid evidence.

 

[takethepoints]

I write a lot about what the sociologists call "informal institutions". What they mean by this is patterns of behavior that are officially frowned on or even against the written rules but that persist through informal agreements among participants or between participants and elites. A good example would be physical punishment in schools; most districts have rules against it and most have schools where it goes on by general agreement without any kind of official action to stop it.

Well, enough lecturing, but I think this is what's going on with this. The reason it's hard to get the goods on anybody is that the entire business isn't coordinated or officially sanctioned. Instead, big donors skirt the rules regularly and deliver the benefits indirectly. That makes it easy for the schools involved to deny involvement while at the same time not doing anything proactive to stop the practices. I don't know if Tech is involved too deeply in this, but I suspect not, largely for the reason GTstinger gave us. There are plenty of programs that are, however. Bob Devaney said it best long ago: "I don't want to win enough to be placed on NCAA probation, I just want to win enough to warrant an investigation." That's it in a nutshell.

How we address the problem is another story. I suspect, sooner or later, Congress (gulp!) will get involved. As has happened in the past, if a sport can't get it's own house in order, the feds will step in and relieve them of the responsibility.

 

[Techster]

Are bag men related to straw men?

 

[MWBATL]

So is *this* what CPJ is referring to when he talks about other schools having greater 'resources' than GT does to recruit with?

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

So is *this* what CPJ is referring to when he talks about other schools having greater 'resources' than GT does to recruit with?

No he's talking about staff and facilities. Things our school can control, unlike other schools' bag men.

 

[TechTravis]

I also know that about 20 or so years ago I asked a relatively high placed person in the GTAA why we did not turn these people into the NCAA. The verbatim response - "because you do not know what they have on you."

This is why known cooks in our government get away with what they do. Heard on TV the other night from Newt Gingrich that people are afraid what the Clintons may have on them. Sad state of affair.

As far as giving money is concerned I had rather sponsor a child in a third world nation or help pay for a distillation facility or drill a water well in same nation than be a bag man.

We could open a football academy there...

 

[vamosjackets]

More personal thoughts (Highly Speculative): I think SOME of it has to do with a man's conviction. Is a man primarily driven by ethics or by greed - this is admittedly an oversimplification. One could say that everyone is ethically driven, but simply have different sets of ethics, or often one lives inconsistently with his own ethics, etc. For the sake of this simple argument, I'm just using the categories of ethically driven vs not ethically driven. From being coached by him and other personal interactions outside of football, I believe that CCG was primarily driven by ethics. From no personal experience, only from the outside looking in, I don't believe ethics were at the center of CGO'L's drive. Again, from the outside looking in, I think CPJ is ethically driven more so than not. So, I could definitely see the "bagman" situation being different at GT depending on the leader of the program. I don't think it has everything to do with it, but I think it can be a big part. For example, I can see a coach who is ethically driven trying not to have this kind of thing go on, but it being too big for him to control (the program's culture is bigger than he and his ethics can impact).

 

[GTNavyNuke]

I wish we had bag men for our baseball team.

If I were to "invest" my money, I think baseball would have the highest ROI.

 

[OldJacketFan]

I wish we had bag men for our baseball team.

If I were to "invest" my money, I think baseball would have the highest ROI.

Hard to compete with MLB owners

 

[vamosjackets]

Hey now I've been using that as my signature for a while!

And, I love you for that. Maybe it should be in all of our signatures. I wish it would start trending on Twitter. Something like: "Hey football factory recruits #Auburn #Clemson #Bama #UGA #OhSt #OleMiss, come to GT and #BeYourOwnBagMan." I'm sure somebody can do something better than I can. I've not gotten into Twittering.

 

[jacket_fan]

I cannot comment on today, but in the 70s, my best bud in high school got a scholarship to Tennessee. (Yes he was a stud)

Prior to school starting he got a job with an alumni and as I recall got excellent pay for little work. During football season, the players were given tickets for "their family". These were purchased with cash from a "donor" for hundreds of dollars a ticket. He did quite nicely until he broke his neck during practice and UT dumped him.

I think it was legal for the schools to give away tickets, but back then getting $1,000 cash for tickets was a LOT of money.

So I would not be surprised at any underhanded dealings in college football.

 

[Techster]

I wish we had bag men for our baseball team.

If I were to "invest" my money, I think baseball would have the highest ROI.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and Lord knows I probably am, but doesn't GT baseball actually recruit well? Isn't GT's baseball problem is that they recruit too well, and MLB ends up signing a lot of our signees?

 

[bartoma]

I write a lot about what the sociologists call "informal institutions". What they mean by this is patterns of behavior that are officially frowned on or even against the written rules but that persist through informal agreements among participants or between participants and elites. A good example would be physical punishment in schools; most districts have rules against it and most have schools where it goes on by general agreement without any kind of official action to stop it.

Well, enough lecturing, but I think this is what's going on with this. The reason it's hard to get the goods on anybody is that the entire business isn't coordinated or officially sanctioned. Instead, big donors skirt the rules regularly and deliver the benefits indirectly. That makes it easy for the schools involved to deny involvement while at the same time not doing anything proactive to stop the practices. I don't know if Tech is involved too deeply in this, but I suspect not, largely for the reason GTstinger gave us. There are plenty of programs that are, however. Bob Devaney said it best long ago: "I don't want to win enough to be placed on NCAA probation, I just want to win enough to warrant an investigation." That's it in a nutshell.

How we address the problem is another story. I suspect, sooner or later, Congress (gulp!) will get involved. As has happened in the past, if a sport can't get it's own house in order, the feds will step in and relieve them of the responsibility.

I hear echoes of Hayekian spontaneous order...

 

[jacketup]

I also know that about 20 or so years ago I asked a relatively high placed person in the GTAA why we did not turn these people into the NCAA. The verbatim response - "because you do not know what they have on you."

Bill Curry told me this back in the '80's when he was coaching---and cheating was even more obvious than today: Curry went to Homer Rice and said "such and such" a school is cheating. Homer told him that if he could prove it to turn them in.

There is a difference between knowing a school is cheating and having direct proof. I am sure that if you are a recruiter you know who is and who isn't, but that doesn't mean you have anything other than circumstantial evidence.

The NCAA doesn't have the enforcement power to drag an alumus into a proceeding to obtain sworn testimony or subpoena their private records. The alumnus would probably lie anyway.

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and Lord knows I probably am, but doesn't GT baseball actually recruit well? Isn't GT's baseball problem is that they recruit too well, and MLB ends up signing a lot of our signees?

I don't think GT recruits that well overall. But let me explain why:
1) If we recruit a top 100 player, yes they go to the MLB >70% of the time. But that happens for most everyone not named Vanderbilt or Virginia or Florida (and maybe a few others). I wouldn't be surprised if those players aren't compensated with compatible jobs / bonuses some how.
2) The rankings are updated after the draft. We have highly ranked recruiting classes that consistently haven't panned out based on our on field performance or performance after GT. Mostly injuries or the kids just don't keep progressing. It seems we have more than our share of that.
2a) While you really can't separate talent and program and coaching and luck, our highly ranked classes don't do much while at GT or going on to the MLB after GT. We only have 4 players currently in the MLB (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/teams/teampage.asp?T=20124&Page=Alumni ) and I don't think that many knocking around the minors. (Full list in the link.)
2b) My opinion is that the players from major metropolitan areas (So Cal, Florida cities, Atlanta) area get much better coverage and are over rated relative to kids that aren't as exposed.

But hey, if anyone can convince a top 100 player to commit and stay at GT by whatever means, there are 100 or so GT baseball fans who would really appreciate it.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

I scratch my head when a place gets the cream instead of it being scattered around. The following schools come to mind:
The old SW conference.
Oklahoma and Nebraska in their heyday.
Alabama and Auburn arms race
Vince Dooley
FSU and Miami rags to riches
Clemson and Ol Miss
LSU, Ohio State, ND, USC, Oregon, Penn State, A&M, Boise State, Petrino, VT, UF, and some I left out.
Some may be squeaky clean, but you would have to prove it, for e to believe.