Apples and Oranges

[RickStromFan]

This is true. Well, kinda true.

I think the outsiders were still just hatin' on GT. They just happened to be right this time. Remember, they predict doom for us every year regardless.

I never did understand the "outsider paranoia" that some fans had during PJ's tenure. Stuff like Scheduling Conspiracy with Bye Weeks, Intentionally-bad refereeing, etc was all tied back to some mysterious hatred/fear of PJ, which is nonsensical.

I don't think the referees have gotten any better this year in our CGC-coached games!

 

[kg01]

There's nothing CGC can do. He's not CPJ or Monken so will never win those types of fans over. Those fans will literally never be happy with him because the TO and its branch of coaches aren't coming here nor are any former Ga Southern option coaches coming here.

That's the impression I get and I think that's a shame. I'm a staunch CPJ supporter but I recognized it was time for a change. And, if you're gonna make a change, no need to go from the option guru to some cheap knock off (all due respeck to them dudes but they ain't CPJ).

CGC was not my first choice so I had some initial consternation. I didn't like the gimmicks but I recognized it was not for me to like. I recognized the program needed an infusion of .. something. Call it energy, call it youth, call it swag .. call it whatever you want. The programs we compete against have it in spades and we had none of it. It is what it is.

So I'm willing to support them (our coaches) because they are indeed our coaches. And I've seen what constant negativity can do to a program. It's not good for anyone. I just don't understand why so many folks are just wanting to watch the world burn just because they didn't get the coach they wanted.

 

[kg01]

I never did understand the "outsider paranoia" that some fans had during PJ's tenure. Stuff like Scheduling Conspiracy with Bye Weeks, Intentionally-bad refereeing, etc was all tied back to some mysterious hatred/fear of PJ, which is nonsensical.

I don't think the referees have gotten any better this year in our CGC-coached games!

But the bye week thing was real. Opposing coaches admitted they petitioned the league to get bye weeks around facing us.

The ref thing is typical of all fanbases.

 

[RickStromFan]

But the bye week thing was real. Opposing coaches admitted they petitioned the league to get bye weeks around facing us.

The ref thing is typical of all fanbases.

do you have a link proving that? First I've ever seen that. thanks!

 

[Lee]

who is mr eyeroll? asking for a friend.

I don’t know, but he’s an Animal...

 

[bobongo]

The moment you say don't consider the Citadel, you are creating a straw man....try agsin

From the start, he said the Citadel game was inexcusable. A "straw man" is a postulate supposedly from the other side which is knocked down but in fact was never stated. Example: "You said these coaches were perfect". Obviously that was never stated because, for instance, the Citadel game was acknowledged as a failure. So his reference to the Citadel would in no way be a straw man argument, but in fact was simply a pre-emptive acknowledgement.

 

[jwsavhGT]

@kg01, I'm curious why you feel this way...

For background, I am that guy w.r.t. Josh Pastner. I want him fired. I never wanted him hired. The bar for CJP getting me off that narrative is incredibly high. There, I'm putting it on the table. That's what I want.

 

[kg01]

do you have a link proving that? First I've ever seen that. thanks!

Sorry, I can't go through the process of digging up old quotes on it. If you don't believe me, I'm fine with that.

@kg01, I'm curious why you feel this way...

Spoiler

I just never belieed in his ability as a recruiter or as an in-game coach while he was at Memphis. Saw no reason it would get better here. When our job opened, I had a "heyul nawl" list of replacements. #1 was Pastner.

 

[jwsavhGT]

Sorry, I can't go through the process of digging up old quotes on it. If you don't believe me, I'm fine with that.

Spoiler

I just never belieed in his ability as a recruiter or as an in-game coach while he was at Memphis. Saw no reason it would get better here. When our job opened, I had a "heyul nawl" list of replacements. #1 was Pastner.

Not bait, just was curious. Thanks for answering.

 

[smokey_wasp]

Real question: What do the anti-CGC folks want?

Tearing down a 1st year coach is a pretty useless exercise. I got no problem with pointing out areas where we need to improve, but I don't think that's what these folks are doing. Sounds like there's nothing CGC can do/could've done to win these folks over. As such, the question remains .. what. do. you. folks. want?

I don't get it.

For background, I am that guy w.r.t. Josh Pastner. I want him fired. I never wanted him hired. The bar for CJP getting me off that narrative is incredibly high. There, I'm putting it on the table. That's what I want. But even knowing that, I don't pollute every bball thread with fire-CJP rhetoric. Why? Because I have respect for the folks that want to discuss bball and who still believe he can turn it around.

Can you anti-CGC folks educate me on what in the actual F you dudes want at this point?

Do you want him fired? How would that help our fball program? Do you want CPJ back? Well, and I say this as an unabashed CPJ-lover, he retired so that's not happening. Do you want Monken or some other CPJ disciple hired? Well, if the fanbase/administration runs CGC out of town after 1 season that everyone expected to be a struggle, why would any of them leave to come here?

Somebody tell me something 'cause toxifying every fball thread is useless and it makes the board untenable for everyone.

I think some of it is bitterness. I keep seeing people justifying it by saying they had to listen to negative comments about CPJ for years. Pretty unfair to Collins, though, as he had nothing to do with any of that. I argued with CPJ haters for a few years on another site, but now I come across like a hater because I was ready for him to go and because I defend the new coach.

I agree with you on all counts, including Pasnter.

 

[Lee]

I appreciate the time and thought you put into this post even though I don't agree with all of it.

I'm not sure if I'm a part of the "same group of people" you mentioned but I believe there is a segment of us that are giving CGC a pass on this year at this point and trying not to sink down into the muck of comparing CPJ and CGC, but who nonetheless have valid concerns about this staff independent of talent level and scheme changes (game week preparation, gameday decision making, mischaracterization of facts, etc). I think there are valid discussions to be had on that, but those concerns are usually shouted down with the same responses given to the tired talent and transition arguments. I enjoy good back and forth with reasoned arguments and am disappointed we have largely gotten away from that on all fronts. I look forward to responses to my posts that evidence research and thoughtfulness. Unfortunately, those responses usually instead sink to some variation of "you're just whining to be whining" or "you don't understand football."

All that to say "thank you" for a well-thought-out and researched post @Lee.

Thank you.

I would definitely not put you in that group. I also love a good dialogue and agree the staff is more than fair game to address when they make mistakes. I would say if there are no concerns, than one is not paying attention. There are maybe 3 coaches in all of college football that could potentially fit into that category. Even Kirby for the dwags. Really good recruiter and defensive mind, but his in game coaching leaves you scratching you head (thankfully happily because he’s cost them another game).

As for our staff, I don’t like how the QB situation was handled and felt Graham should have been given a serious look after the Clemson game. I do fully acknowledge that I don’t know what the coaches knew. Maybe he didn’t have enough grasp of the playbook at the time. I do think he was set to start against Citadel before he got hurt. If he starts and plays meaningful snaps in that game, I think it turns out different and we are further ahead offensively today as well.

I also thought Collins had terrible clock management in the Citadel game that cost us a chance to win. In the same game, it was obvious that Oliver should have taken the reins in the 2nd half.

Again, I’m all for making critiques. I just get sick of ignorant blanket statements like “we lost to Citadel, CGC and his whole staff suck.” Point to something specific, address it and move on. The group I referenced don’t do that.

Thank you for the well thought and respectful response.

THWG!

 

[smokey_wasp]

I wonder how Ken Whisenhunt is doing in an alternate universe as head coach. I can't imagine going through this rough of a transition with a coach who doesn't have juice or recruiting cred to provide hope for the future. I think TStan knew he couldn't make an unpopular hire because the new guy was going to have a rough time on the field for a while. Collins was a pretty popular hire and I can see that he is going to need every bit of the good will he built up in those first few months to get through this patch.

 

[kg01]

Not bait, just was curious. Thanks for answering.

Well I may not be bann'd but I'm definitely gonna be shunned by my bball board brethren now. I promised not to do the fire-CJP thing out loud anymore.

 

[Boaty1]

Major assumption in your post is that this staff is getting the most out of the players and putting the best practice on the field. I just don’t see that. We can debate about the D but the O has left much to be desired.

I’m more concerned with the D than the O. Steve Spurrier couldn’t run a functioning offense with this collection of players so I will not judge anything offensive related this year.

 

[Lee]

The FACT is that, regardless of the system they were signed for, they had experience, and they had experience in the first two games of the season under Collins. Any one of the three SHOULD have been able to beat Citadel, especially Oliver, but we still lost.

So you think the 2 guys we had available for that game (Oliver and LJ) had more experience than a Senior who was recruited and signed by Auburn and saw action in 5 games as a senior.

Oliver is the only person you could even act like had close to the same amount of experience as Booker. Neither had “experience” in the new system.

I do agree that they all should have beaten Citadel. They didn’t. It’s over. I have a feeling that you have some friends that continue to hound you on that game and it bothers you way more than it should. It was one game! We never should have lost it, but we did. Nothing we say or do will change that. If we had the 2008 defense, we would not have lost. If the 2008 team had this year’s defense they would have lost to GW.

Let me ask you a question. If Paul had lost to GW that day. Do you think it would have changed the rest of his time here? If so, then you don’t think much of him as a coach. If not, you need to get over the Citadel game and realize that game doesn’t change who he is as a coach and what he will do here.

 

[WreckinGT]

I wonder how Ken Whisenhunt is doing in an alternate universe as head coach. I can't imagine going through this rough of a transition with a coach who doesn't have juice or recruiting cred to provide hope for the future. I think TStan knew he couldn't make an unpopular hire because the new guy was going to have a rough time on the field for a while. Collins was a pretty popular hire and I can see that he is going to need every bit of the good will he built up in those first few months to get through this patch.

It’s very possible that Whisenhunt would have beaten The Citadel and been moderately competitive against Temple, UNC, and Duke even if he didn’t beat them. We will never know. Are we really trying to convince ourselves that no coach could have possibly done better that CGC has? Because that is pretty ridiculous. I’m not off of the CGC bandwagon by any means, but he has done a pretty crappy job in his first 6 games.

 

[smokey_wasp]

It’s very possible that Whisenhunt would have beaten The Citadel and been moderately competitive against Temple, UNC, and Duke even if he didn’t beat them. We will never know. Are we really trying to convince ourselves that no coach could have possibly done better that CGC has? Because that is pretty ridiculous. I’m not off of the CGC bandwagon by any means, but he has done a pretty crappy job in his first 6 games.

Of course we will never know how anyone else would have done. It's hard for me to imagine him doing better, given the true pro style background. But this is probably a rabbit hole that I shouldn't lead us down. My point is it was going to be rough for anyone. Maybe not 1-5 rough. Maybe 0-6 rough. Maybe 2-4 rough. Patience was always going to be necessary, but it's easier to be patient with a guy most of the fans like from the get-go, rather than someone they were dead set against from day 1 is all I am saying.

 

[GoGATech]

It’s very possible that Whisenhunt would have beaten The Citadel and been moderately competitive against Temple, UNC, and Duke even if he didn’t beat them. We will never know. Are we really trying to convince ourselves that no coach could have possibly done better that CGC has? Because that is pretty ridiculous. I’m not off of the CGC bandwagon by any means, but he has done a pretty crappy job in his first 6 games.

I don't think anybody is arguing that no coach would've done better. I think the argument is that any (non-option) coach you could have hired could easily also have done just as bad with this transition and inexperience we have on both sides of the ball. And that is an extremely valid argument. Everybody throwing the staff under the bus and it's an extremely large feat they are trying to accomplish. I think part of the problem was all of the optimism and energy CGC brought to the program gave people extremely high expectations given the situation. Not that those higher expectations were unrealistic, but would've taken several small miracles to occur. I think you will find most experts are not surprised with how we are faring this year.

 

[BonafideJacket]

Real question: What do the anti-CGC folks want?

What I really want is to trust CGC and his coaching staff. Much of my criticism (when you strip away my post-game emotion) is seeking an explanation for certain decisions or approaches that I find head-scratching. There are a lot of folks on this board with much more football knowledge than me that I hope can provide those explanations.

 

[JorgeJonas]

Real question: What do the anti-CGC folks want?

Competence.