Apples and Oranges

[CousCous]

Nah. I think I’m gonna keep bringing it up because it’s an important data point. Collins is giving us information. It’s up to you if you want to ignore it.

I agree that The Citadel loss was shockingly bad. I firmly believe the blame falls squarely on the coaching staff and specifically CGC. I don’t feel like anyone on this board is ignoring that, but I also don’t feel like that loss is impossible to move on from.

I have no insider information. This is all a total guess on my part. We were a young team, and we got caught thinking all we had to do was show up. By the time we realized we had to do more, things snowballed out of control and the unthinkable happened. The in-game coaching was bad, but I personally believe letting us look past The Citadel was the bigger blunder. Hell, if I am honest, I fell into the same trap. I have a 10yo who is way more into youtubers and esports than CFB. I picked this as his first game at BDS just knowing he would enjoy a win.

The important thing isn’t what we did in our worst 60 minutes, but rather what did we learn in those 60 mins.

“Get busy living, or get busy dying.” - Andy Dufrane

 

[ibeattetris]

I’ve seen a lot of complaining about CGC and staff from the same group of people. This group will not acknowledge the hurdles in this transition and seem to focus only on the negatives. This same group also loves to point to PJ’s transition and how well it went without acknowledging the goldmine he walked into.

The purpose of this post is to point out the significant difference in what each coach walked into.

I want to take offense completely out of the equation to start and focus on 4 players that allowed Paul to have the start he did.

1. Darryl Richard (SR)
2. Vance Walker (SR) - mutli year NFL career
3. Michael Johnson (SR) - mutli year NFL career. Best pure pass rusher in the last 15 years
4. Derrick Morgan (SO) - mutli year NFL career. GT HoFer and arguably the best DL in the last 15 years.

Serious question for those doubting CGC and staff’s coaching ability. Do you think this season would look the same with this group on our team now? Need I mention we had 3 guys on the backend of that D played in the league as well? One of which is still playing 10+ years later.

In the first 6 games (same point in the season) of 2008, our defense gave up 10.667 points per game. How would our team this year have faired with those results? Is it possible, things would be a little different?

If we can, let’s talk about the offense now.

1. Dwyer
2. Thomas
3. Nesbitt
4. Howard
5. Gardner

Elite NFL WR, elite college RB, warrior qb, and two NFL olineman.

This post isn’t to take away from Paul being a good/great coach. This is to (hopefully) quell some of the ridiculous comparisons and (hopefully) open some eyes to the fact that there is a talent discrepancy whether you want to admit it or not. I’m not bashing any player either. Stating that we don’t have a D Morgan or M Johnson is just a fact. I won’t go much further on what CGC walked into other than to say we have some talent at the skill positions and on the backend. We lack the same size/ability that the 2008 team had along with the experience which is often overlooked. A lot of experience along both lines in 2008.

And please, don’t bring up Citadel. We all agree, that loss is inexcusable. Just like losing to Gardner Webb would’ve been in 2008 (which would happened with the 2019 defense IMO). Continuing to bring it up does nobody any good. It happened. It sucked. It’s over. This post is about the other 5 games we’ve played.

The skill players left over by Gailey were *awesome*. Easily some of the most explosive and fun players I've had the joy of watching. I am so thankful they got to play for us.

Most of the talk on the board, however, is about the lines (and specifically our oline). I have compiled recruiting data to show comparisons between the offensive line situations each coach was walking into. This does not take into account injuries and attrition for either coach. I do this because I think attrition happens and can't be controlled by the coach. I think CGC gets a pass on line play this year due to the crazy injuries that have transpired, as I give CPJ a pass for 2015 for the same reason. I just want to put this data out here because I think the cupboard shouldn't have ended up dry, but bad luck sometimes happens. I also don't know enough about our 2008 roster to go through and figure out which defensive recruits may have actually been offense recruits (which was easier on current roster), so if there are OL I missed that need added to the 03-08 chart I will add it and update.

I find it interesting that people claim our lineman are undersized when it appears they are only an inch shorter on average and only giving up three pounds than the classes prior to CPJ. While certainly smaller, I expected crazy discrepancy based on the anecdotes of people on this forum. Going further, it appears that there is a pretty massive change in both the overall rating as well as the average stars. It seems pretty incredible that we were averaging less than two stars on the o line (and having 20 is pretty incredible as well, everything I have seen indicates 14-18 on scholarship is normal).

I don't know what all of this means. Maybe it's never as good or as bad as it seems. I think CGC is going to do fine at GT, and I wish people would cut him some slack. I also wish people would cut some slack to our current roster recruited by CPJ.

 

[ibeattetris]

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mention, both 2006 and 2019 had no OL commits. I can't imagine that wasn't a major contributor to 2010, but CPJ needed to account for that better. Not taking the 2019 OL commits stills cares me, but it does seem like CGC is trying to make sure it balances out by taking more this year, so it should be fine.

 

[bobongo]

The skill players left over by Gailey were *awesome*. Easily some of the most explosive and fun players I've had the joy of watching. I am so thankful they got to play for us.

Most of the talk on the board, however, is about the lines (and specifically our oline). I have compiled recruiting data to show comparisons between the offensive line situations each coach was walking into. This does not take into account injuries and attrition for either coach. I do this because I think attrition happens and can't be controlled by the coach. I think CGC gets a pass on line play this year due to the crazy injuries that have transpired, as I give CPJ a pass for 2015 for the same reason. I just want to put this data out here because I think the cupboard shouldn't have ended up dry, but bad luck sometimes happens. I also don't know enough about our 2008 roster to go through and figure out which defensive recruits may have actually been offense recruits (which was easier on current roster), so if there are OL I missed that need added to the 03-08 chart I will add it and update.

View attachment 6965 View attachment 6966

I find it interesting that people claim our lineman are undersized when it appears they are only an inch shorter on average and only giving up three pounds than the classes prior to CPJ. While certainly smaller, I expected crazy discrepancy based on the anecdotes of people on this forum. Going further, it appears that there is a pretty massive change in both the overall rating as well as the average stars. It seems pretty incredible that we were averaging less than two stars on the o line (and having 20 is pretty incredible as well, everything I have seen indicates 14-18 on scholarship is normal).

I don't know what all of this means. Maybe it's never as good or as bad as it seems. I think CGC is going to do fine at GT, and I wish people would cut him some slack. I also wish people would cut some slack to our current roster recruited by CPJ.

A few things...I think linemen have gotten a little bigger in the 11 year interim, while ours shrunk slightly. But also, the linemen in both systems were recruited for a different offense, and that wasn't anybody's fault (but I think it hurts a lot more now than it did then). Another thing that isn't anybody's fault is the attrition through transfer and injury. But I have to point out that those two 4-stars in 2007 and 2008, Claytor and Uzzi, were huge (in more ways than one). We haven't had anyone like those guys in a while.

 

[bobongo]

A few things...I think linemen have gotten a little bigger in the 11 year interim, while ours shrunk slightly. But also, the linemen in both systems were recruited for a different offense, and that wasn't anybody's fault (but I think it hurts a lot more now than it did then). Another thing that isn't anybody's fault is the attrition through transfer and injury. But I have to point out that those two 4-stars in 2007 and 2008, Claytor and Uzzi, were huge (in more ways than one). We haven't had anyone like those guys in a while.

Uh, except Shaq...

 

[Lee]

A few things...I think linemen have gotten a little bigger in the 11 year interim, while ours shrunk slightly. But also, the linemen in both systems were recruited for a different offense, and that wasn't anybody's fault (but I think it hurts a lot more now than it did then). Another thing that isn't anybody's fault is the attrition through transfer and injury. But I have to point out that those two 4-stars in 2007 and 2008, Claytor and Uzzi, were huge (in more ways than one). We haven't had anyone like those guys in a while.

And two of the 1 star guys were seniors who went to play in the NFL the following year.

So while it’s relevant to look at those rankings, it’s also important to realize that two of those lower ranked recruits were proven commodities at that time. It’s like if someone came in 2014. Shaq was not a highly rated recruit, but he was a proven commodity.

I still think the biggest discrepancy of the two teams is on the Dline. 3 future NFL guys on that dline in 2008 and the other starter was a senior with a lot of experience. We just don’t have anything close to that right now.

 

[rfripp68]

The skill players left over by Gailey were *awesome*. Easily some of the most explosive and fun players I've had the joy of watching. I am so thankful they got to play for us.

Most of the talk on the board, however, is about the lines (and specifically our oline). I have compiled recruiting data to show comparisons between the offensive line situations each coach was walking into. This does not take into account injuries and attrition for either coach. I do this because I think attrition happens and can't be controlled by the coach. I think CGC gets a pass on line play this year due to the crazy injuries that have transpired, as I give CPJ a pass for 2015 for the same reason. I just want to put this data out here because I think the cupboard shouldn't have ended up dry, but bad luck sometimes happens. I also don't know enough about our 2008 roster to go through and figure out which defensive recruits may have actually been offense recruits (which was easier on current roster), so if there are OL I missed that need added to the 03-08 chart I will add it and update.

View attachment 6965 View attachment 6966

I find it interesting that people claim our lineman are undersized when it appears they are only an inch shorter on average and only giving up three pounds than the classes prior to CPJ. While certainly smaller, I expected crazy discrepancy based on the anecdotes of people on this forum. Going further, it appears that there is a pretty massive change in both the overall rating as well as the average stars. It seems pretty incredible that we were averaging less than two stars on the o line (and having 20 is pretty incredible as well, everything I have seen indicates 14-18 on scholarship is normal).

I don't know what all of this means. Maybe it's never as good or as bad as it seems. I think CGC is going to do fine at GT, and I wish people would cut him some slack. I also wish people would cut some slack to our current roster recruited by CPJ.

They also don't really give 1* ratings anymore. There has definitely been some "grade inflation" so to speak and the lowest you generally see is 2* and those are much more rare than they used to be too - if you go D1 they seem to generally give you 3*. Take a look at any class at random ranked 50-100. I looked through a few and only saw a couple 2*, the rest were 3*+. Even Eastern Michigan, the 100th rated class for 2020 has all 3* except for 1 2*.
https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/

 

[ibeattetris]

They also don't really give 1* ratings anymore. There has definitely been some "grade inflation" so to speak and the lowest you generally see is 2* and those are much more rare than they used to be too - if you go D1 they seem to generally give you 3*. Take a look at any class at random ranked 50-100. I looked through a few and only saw a couple 2*, the rest were 3*+. Even Eastern Michigan, the 100th rated class for 2020 has all 3* except for 1 2*.
https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/

Yeah, I don't really follow recruiting, so this was about discovery for me. It definitely seems like a lot has changed in the past 16 years! I didn't know 1 stars were a thing, and assumed it just meant they weren't rated. I know so much has changed that any player that commits to a P5 is going to have a rating.

Once I started seeing the 1 stars, I tried not to focus too much on them too much. I did highlight that the weight and heights weren't huge discrepancies, which was the most surprising thing to me.

All this really did for me is make me conclude that root cause for line play is more attrition than our recruits on the line being overall worse (couple that with learning a new system too). It's hard to believe that 100% of our 2015 and 2016 OL recruits either moved on or are out with season ending injuries, it's incredible.

I didn't feel the need to look at the defense because we were pretty obviously stacked on the D going in, and no one can argue that our defense has even been decent for the past decade.