ACC Discussion 2020

[Deleted member 2897]

Brice, who transferred from Clemson last season, just transferred to Appalachian State. Cutcliffe has a reputation as a straight shooter, so i gathered he gave him a lot of encouragement as he didn't help them much this season. And Brice is a kid who just wants to play and has one year left.

oh how the mighty have fallen. Dabo used to say Brice would be drafted. But he couldn’t even hack it at the last placed school in the conference and now he’s an App State guy. Incredible.

 

[FredJacket]

oh how the mighty have fallen. Dabo used to say Brice would be drafted. But he couldn’t even hack it at the last placed school in the conference and now he’s an App State guy. Incredible.

App St is an upgrade.

 

[orientalnc]

oh how the mighty have fallen. Dabo used to say Brice would be drafted. But he couldn’t even hack it at the last placed school in the conference and now he’s an App State guy. Incredible.

My App State grad wife is offended that you consider this a downgrade. I am trying to restrain her. But beware.

 

[Skeptic]

oh how the mighty have fallen. Dabo used to say Brice would be drafted. But he couldn’t even hack it at the last placed school in the conference and now he’s an App State guy. Incredible.

But he will always have that 4th and 16 that kept Clemson in the hunt, and memories don't get any better than that. His uncle, Mickey Conn, is an assistant coach at Clemson. Conn had a player Swinney wanted -- a real good one but I can't remember who -- and he also wanted Conn as a position coach. Got the player, and waited two years to hire Conn. Told him if he hired him on the heels of getting the player he, Conn, would always be remembered as a coach who got his job in return for a player. Which is how Freeze got to Mississippi, for Oher.

 

[Skeptic]

My App State grad wife is offended that you consider this a downgrade. I am trying to restrain her. But beware.

One word: Michigan.

 

[slugboy]

oh how the mighty have fallen. Dabo used to say Brice would be drafted. But he couldn’t even hack it at the last placed school in the conference and now he’s an App State guy. Incredible.

If Cutcliffe had a better QB, he’d have played him. Maybe Duke is better at QB next year, but there’s no guarantee.
He wasn’t their only offensive problem

 

[Techster]

Is it cheating or is it just all part of gamesmanship?

 

[JacketOff]

Is it cheating or is it just all part of gamesmanship?

If you can pick up signs in real-time without the aid of technology, go for it. Picking signs is a skill that some people are just really good at. Just like in baseball. If you’ve got cameras trained on the signal callers and extra staff members studying the film in order to get signals, that’s crossing the line and should be stopped. However, if you have people study film prior to the game, that’s also fair. Teams should be able to change up their signals from week to week, and if you don’t and they get stolen, that’s on you. It’s just unfortunate that Clemson has waaayyyy more staff members than almost anybody else in the ACC, so they’ve got more disposable time to look in sign stealing. There’s much less staff disparity at the CFP level though, so it should be a non-issue.

 

[orientalnc]

If you can pick up signs in real-time without the aid of technology, go for it. Picking signs is a skill that some people are just really good at. Just like in baseball. If you’ve got cameras trained on the signal callers and extra staff members studying the film in order to get signals, that’s crossing the line and should be stopped. However, if you have people study film prior to the game, that’s also fair. Teams should be able to change up their signals from week to week, and if you don’t and they get stolen, that’s on you. It’s just unfortunate that Clemson has waaayyyy more staff members than almost anybody else in the ACC, so they’ve got more disposable time to look in sign stealing. There’s much less staff disparity at the CFP level though, so it should be a non-issue.

Isn't the real issue one of sportsmanship? When winning becomes more important than fairness you are lost.

 

[JacketOff]

Isn't the real issue one of sportsmanship? When winning becomes more important than fairness you are lost.

Stealing signals in high-level sports isn’t an unsportsmanlike gesture, IMO. It has existed for decades, and there are plenty of preventive measures a team can use. As I said, if it is done in real-time, or prior to the game, it’s fair game. If it’s done with the help of technology during the game, it should come with repercussions because that isn’t fair.

But what is fairness? I’d argue the entire premise of college football hasn’t been fair since before the 1950s. In professional sports every team is given the same opportunities, and while there may be advantages/disadvantages to basing your team in a certain city, the system surrounding the teams is fair for everyone. College sports are a completely story. Schools with vastly different curriculums, resources, support, etc. compete against each other not only on the field, but in recruiting. And those that do better on the field, tend to do better in recruiting. It’s a system designed for the rich to get richer. The system surrounding the teams is unfair, so how can the games be fair at all? Stealing signs is way down on the list of things affecting the outcome of games, and also things that should be considered “unfair.”

 

[Buzztheirazz]

Sportsmanship when there are tens of millions of dollars, recruits and the ability to win more on the line? Pssshh. Yeah right.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

Isn't the real issue one of sportsmanship? When winning becomes more important than fairness you are lost.

Thus I really think college football is entertainment. Somewhere above professional wrestling and NASCAR as far as not being fixed or cheating, but just a way of life.

I was trying to think of sportsmanship in money paying sports and I had a hard time. One aspect of professional cycling would be where the peloton slows when a stage race leader has an unforced mishap. Or a golfer taking an extra stroke for touching the ball but unobserved.

Unfortunately the norm is that if you aren't cheating you aren't trying.

 

[slugboy]

Is it cheating or is it just all part of gamesmanship?

I read that article a few weeks back. While I don’t think they needed to steal signals against us this year, I feel like they were robbing us blind in the game earlier this season, on offense and defense.

 

[FredJacket]

Stealing signals in high-level sports isn’t an unsportsmanlike gesture, IMO. It has existed for decades, and there are plenty of preventive measures a team can use. As I said, if it is done in real-time, or prior to the game, it’s fair game. If it’s done with the help of technology during the game, it should come with repercussions because that isn’t fair.

But what is fairness? I’d argue the entire premise of college football hasn’t been fair since before the 1950s. In professional sports every team is given the same opportunities, and while there may be advantages/disadvantages to basing your team in a certain city, the system surrounding the teams is fair for everyone. College sports are a completely story. Schools with vastly different curriculums, resources, support, etc. compete against each other not only on the field, but in recruiting. And those that do better on the field, tend to do better in recruiting. It’s a system designed for the rich to get richer. The system surrounding the teams is unfair, so how can the games be fair at all? Stealing signs is way down on the list of things affecting the outcome of games, and also things that should be considered “unfair.”

Agree... the highlighted part is spot on (IMO). Sign stealing works both ways and there are 2 'competitors' involved. Those signaling and those 'stealing' the signs are taking risks. Assuming it is real-time or based on pre-game prep, both sides have opportunity to "use" signaling and sign stealing to their advantage. Is it unsportsmanlike to change signs or use signs as a deceptive measure? No way... that is simply neutralizing something the opposition is attempting to do.

 

[orientalnc]

I taught my sons that winning only felt good when you won fairly. I think (at least I hope) that lesson stuck. My first born was one of the top Magic players in the country at one time and remains respected among gamers. I think that respect would be missing if he had cheated. And cheating is what Clemson is accused of doing. I do not know if the accusations are true, but they sting just the same if they are coming your way. I think most of us would prefer not being good enough at our sport over being called a cheater. It says too much about your worth as an individual.

End of sermon.

 

[Lee]

I taught my sons that winning only felt good when you won fairly. I think (at least I hope) that lesson stuck. My first born was one of the top Magic players in the country at one time and remains respected among gamers. I think that respect would be missing if he had cheated. And cheating is what Clemson is accused of doing. I do not know if the accusations are true, but they sting just the same if they are coming your way. I think most of us would prefer not being good enough at our sport over being called a cheater. It says too much about your worth as an individual.

End of sermon.

That’s the issue, stealing signs isn’t considered cheating. Everyone does it. Now what the Astros (and several other teams) did was cheating. They used a live camera to relay with nobody on 2nd and the catcher was only using one sign.

When I played at GT we had a guy who would just study the coach relaying signs to the catcher to give our hitters anadvantage. He played some, but spent most of his time “cracking the code” of the opposing coach. So did every team we played against. That didn’t stop at the professional level.

Everytime someone gets on 2nd base, you have to change what sign you use. Watch a big league game now. Most mound visits from a catcher happen with a guy on 2nd.

I agree with your premise on cheating and will raise my kids the same way, but this doesn’t apply in my opinion.

And in general, that way of thinking is going out the window. I played with and against a bunch of guys who used steroids, hgh, or even aderol (sp) to gain an advantage. Many of them have made some good money playing because of it. Sometimes money and fame are more important than integrity in our society now. It’s sad but true.

 

[AlabamaBuzz]

That’s the issue, stealing signs isn’t considered cheating. Everyone does it. Now what the Astros (and several other teams) did was cheating. They used a live camera to relay with nobody on 2nd and the catcher was only using one sign.

When I played at GT we had a guy who would just study the coach relaying signs to the catcher to give our hitters anadvantage. He played some, but spent most of his time “cracking the code” of the opposing coach. So did every team we played against. That didn’t stop at the professional level.

Everytime someone gets on 2nd base, you have to change what sign you use. Watch a big league game now. Most mound visits from a catcher happen with a guy on 2nd.

I agree with your premise on cheating and will raise my kids the same way, but this doesn’t apply in my opinion.

And in general, that way of thinking is going out the window. I played with and against a bunch of guys who used steroids, hgh, or even aderol (sp) to gain an advantage. Many of them have made some good money playing because of it. Sometimes money and fame are more important than integrity in our society now. It’s sad but true.

Yes, Lee, in one very short statement, you have basically said why our country is not headed in a direction I wish. I weep for my grandkids, because I don't believe it is "sometimes" with our leaders much more.

 

[JacketOff]

I taught my sons that winning only felt good when you won fairly. I think (at least I hope) that lesson stuck. My first born was one of the top Magic players in the country at one time and remains respected among gamers. I think that respect would be missing if he had cheated. And cheating is what Clemson is accused of doing. I do not know if the accusations are true, but they sting just the same if they are coming your way. I think most of us would prefer not being good enough at our sport over being called a cheater. It says too much about your worth as an individual.

End of sermon.

To say Clemson is cheating is to imply they’re doing something outside of the rules. I can’t say with 100% certainty, but I would assume there is no rule that says a team can’t infer knowledge from their opponent’s signals or call outs. However, I would also assume that utilizing outside technology to assist in their signal thievery *is* outside of the rules, thus making it illegal and cheating. Stealing signs in real-time is not “cheating,” and attempting to do so is common and prevalent in all high level sports. Gaining an advantage within the rules, and using the opponent’s incompetence against them should never be considered cheating.

To imply what Clemson is doing (given it’s all done in real time with no technological help, or it’s part of pre-game prep) is to imply a poker player reading his opponents’ faces is also cheating. Or a baseball hitter picking up on a pitcher tipping his pitches is cheating. Or a chessmaster analyzing his opponent’s moves and adjusting accordingly is cheating. To take it to an extreme, if what Clemson is doing is cheating (again, given it’s real-time/pre-game prep) then adjusting a play call after the offense audibles can be considered cheating. Audibling requires signals/callouts, and if you aren’t allowed to use those against the opponent, then adjusting your own play call would be impossible.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I've taught my kids to hold their cards close to their vest. If they want to hold their cards out so others can see them, that's on them. They get warned plenty of times, but a peek is worth two finesses.

There is a reason that you see 3-4 players signalling offensive calls to the QB on every sideline. There is 1 real signaller and two dummies. Consider it gaining a tactical advantage rather than cheating. All's fair in love and war. That's the reason we have a Signals Corps.

 

[augustabuzz]

Isn't the real issue one of sportsmanship? When winning becomes more important than fairness you are lost.

What can be more fair than giving both sides the opportunity to steal signs? The remedy is to messenger the play into the offense, or as Coach Dodd did, was train the QB to call the game.