A Thread to Rehash GT HC Comparisons

[Heisman's Ghost]

This doesn’t surprise me. A lot harder to be objective when there is a personal connection.

PJ was a good coach, great offensive mind, and great at in game adjustments. He just couldn’t keep up with where college football is heading. No shame in that.

I respect how he left and am thankful for the good times we had while he was here. He knew it was time to move on. I wish some of his ardent followers like yourself would realize that too.

I’ve said this several times, but will again. Collins may not be the answer (I still have hope he can be). But if he’s not, whoever comes in after him will be walking into a situation to compete immediately because of the talent he is bringing and will bring in. He’s also proving we can recruit better than most thought possible here and the excuses we’ve used for so long are just that, excuses.

If he does not start winning ball games next year, the recruiting will not matter.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

I count myself fortunate in that Georgia Tech’s winningest coach was Dodd (70%) who mentored under Bob Neyland (80%). I‘ve followed both programs.

Both heavily advocated speed. We don’t see that at Tech anymore, but Dodd’s teams were FAST. Braun matters but Tech’s historical advantage was always speed.

"Everything I learned about football, I got it from Bob Neyland" Bear Bryant.

 

[Lee]

If he does not start winning ball games next year, the recruiting will not matter.

I agree he needs to win. Next year I think we win somewhere between 5-7 games.

The following year is when I think we can get to 8-10 and competing for the coastal.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

I agree he needs to win. Next year I think we win somewhere between 5-7 games.

The following year is when I think we can get to 8-10 and competing for the coastal.

I do not share your optimism but we will see.

 

[jacket_fan]

I am finally in agreement that this season is a write off and believe it will not have negative effects on this year's recruiting. Hopefully, this years class and any transfers will set the team up for next year. But I am in the camp with Heisman's Ghost, that it will take next year to prove this staff has what it takes.

I really miss college football. The tailgating, the excitement looking forward to a competitive game. When the weather turns to fall (like today). This is such an abnormal season. I do not even feel the joy of the dawgs yet again having their hopes of a NC spoiled again.

I am ready for 2020 to end and sports to get back to normal. Because I believe we will get back to normal again. At least I hope sports can get back to normal.

 

[takethepoints]

What exactly are you seeing to make you suggest the team is not disciplined? Especially off the field?

Admittedly, this is subjective. When I played ball the rule was to pay attention to the coaches, be ready, watch the game and think about your position, and keep the level of conversation as low as possible. You were, iow, on deck and you had to act like it, unless somebody made a big play. When I watch Tech today, that isn't much the case.

I'll be the first to admit that this is a personal view and I'm an old guy. Paul's teams showed the right kind of attention, however, and players who didn't didn't play much. But times change and so do coaching styles. My problem is that, like the hype, I don't like this aspect of Collins's coaching. Still, like I said above, it is still early days and this year has been so relentlessly screwed up that it is essentially lost territory for all of us. Maybe his way will work long term.

 

[slugboy]

For Collins next year, the offense is trending in the right way and will get better. I think the offensive line is getting older and stronger, and even with graduating seniors, is moving into a good two-deep rotation. We’re deep on skill players on the offense.
On defense, we have several gaps.
1] We either need a couple of players who can make a difference at the NT position or we have to scheme around that. (The argument against scheming around that is that if you do, you never fix the underlying problem, and never get better). Top 10 programs might have a big war daddy NT in the middle, and I think that’s what we want. UCF has a tall, lean, fast guy who gets the jump on the offensive linemen, and was an all AAC player. Either are options, if that works for Thacker.
2] We need two quick and decisive players at LB (and one of the safeties that basically plays LB). Right now, we’re getting either quick or decisive, but we’re not getting both.
3] The defensive backfield often looks like they’re on a different page than the front 6. That needs to get fixed, and hopefully will get better in a non-COVID year.
I think NT and LB are our two most important recruiting positions this year. I think we’ll be solid at Safety. (NT is always one of our most important recruiting positions).

I think Collins will have to coach around a position weakness next season, I just don’t know how many he’ll have to coach around. Maybe he’ll find a way to fill in players.

 

[Vespidae]

Maybe his way will work long term.

I played baseball and basketball in high school. And worked for a lot of different managers.

The successful ones insisted on dress codes, discipline, and rigor. The unsuccessful ones were fun, generous with compliments, and Big Picture.

Bear Bryant once quipped, “When you act like champions, you will be champions.”

Collins strikes me as an “Everybody gets a trophy guy.” We’ll see.

 

[yeti92]

I played baseball and basketball in high school. And worked for a lot of different managers.

The successful ones insisted on dress codes, discipline, and rigor. The unsuccessful ones were fun, generous with compliments, and Big Picture.

Bear Bryant once quipped, “When you act like champions, you will be champions.”

Collins strikes me as an “Everybody gets a trophy guy.” We’ll see.

I don't listen to Collins' pressers much anymore because he doesn't say anything of substance, but the last one I started to listen to, I think after the Clemson game, and he spent the first several minutes fellating various players for their effort in practice.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Again, Collins has to play it this way right now because half the team was recruited by another coach so he has to be the nice guy. I wish he would have come in from day 1 and processed and not honored commits, but something tells me the same fans who say he gives out participation trophies would have excoriated him if he had done that. He’s in a no win situation right now and any coach we hired would be in the same spot.

 

[Vespidae]

Again, Collins has to play it this way right now because half the team was recruited by another coach so he has to be the nice guy. I wish he would have come in from day 1 and processed and not honored commits, but something tells me the same fans who say he gives out participation trophies would have excoriated him if he had done that. He’s in a no win situation right now and any coach we hired would be in the same spot.

I don’t think he’s in a no win situation. Tech is probably the least demanding job in the country other than Vanderbilt.

If he isn’t enforcing standards, what message does that send? Not a good one.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

What standards are you referring to? Your own personal standards?

I think I understand what you are saying but a coach doesn’t have to grab a guy by the face mask to make a point. I use to feel the same way about Bobby Cremins. He was the Collins of hoops. My perception of Cremins when I was at GT and a younger man was that he couldn’t coach a lick, spent the games jumping around while his assistants actually coached. But looking back I’d take him back in a second. Why? Because the guy brought in players that could win. I will always love Cremins for 2 reasons - Dennis Scott and Kenny Anderson. Those two players made my college experience a fun one. Collins will succeed because GT plays in a weak division and he will get players on campus. Just watching Sims, Gibbs, and Brown has been fun especially knowing they are all back for at least 2 more seasons (I know Brown could go early but I doubt he will).

 

[CuseJacket]

Whether the CGC era turns out to be good in terms of wins/losses, there's one thing I'm glad CGC has settled: Recruiting. This staff has proven that GT can recruit in the top 25, and possibly higher. In fact, we can start winning and going to higher tier bowls, I'd say it's not out of the realm of possibilities that GT can recruit in the top 15-20. It's been done before.

I hope to NEVER hear another GT fan bring up "STEM", calculus, narrow curriculums...we've all heard the excuses, and know what they are. We've heard it for the past decade. Yes, they are factors for some recruits, but not insurmountable that it would hold GT from having regular top 20-30 recruiting classes.

CGC is proving that. Now CGC needs to prove he can win 8+ games a year and make us regular Coastal division and ACC title contenders. That is ultimately what will decide whether the CGC era is successful.

I really want to believe this and hope it's true. I cannot disprove the theory of the case.

One caveat that might have already been stated by someone else is, CGC's first class was in part sold on 'hope'. Hope that GT will become something bigger than it is. Hope is only a selling point for so long until facts - on-field performance - takes over.

And if, hypothetically speaking only, we're achieving recruiting results in part by sacrificing the time and resources it takes to be sufficiently prepared for gameday/X's and O's/etc (not saying this is the case, but just presenting another theory), then maybe the takeaway changes.

I think at a minimum we conclude that a new coach at GT is capable of making a splash with a class that can highly influence future results. Typically you need sustained recruiting and multiple classes to flow through to the field 3-4 years later. TBD on if we do that. There are so many variables. Regardless, some narratives have been proven incorrect already, including that GT can recruit better if that's where we place our investment.

Additionally, the doubters who point to X's and O's as more important than Jimmys and Joes are right at some level too. Cannot discount the importance of coaching. Coastal Carolina, Indiana, Minnesota (prior years), Iowa State, Liberty, etc. are solid examples to support that point. Those examples also prove that teams can succeed without the 3O and with vanilla NCAA offenses. All happening at schools with arguably fewer recruiting advantages than GT.

Whether we win with Collins is TBD. But if he fails, it does not necessarily mean that the intended methodology won't work at GT.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Collins will succeed because GT plays in a weak division and he will get players on campus.

This is the premise that keeps getting floated around. I am not sure that I buy it. VT has historically recruited in the low to mid 20's, occasionally dipping into the 15-20 range. They have struggled a bit in the last couple of years, but have shown that they can recruit talent to their campus. Miami is typically in the top 15 in recruiting. UNC has historically recruited in the top 25 range as well, and will get better under Brown. Pitt and UVA are both currently ranked ahead of us in recruiting this year, so as of right now, we are 5th in the Coastal in incoming talent for 2021, ahead of only Duke and VT. If we are depending on winning by "get(ting) players on campus" then we probably ought to make sure we are we are recruiting better than the other teams in our "weak division." The reality is that CGC IS getting players on campus, but so is a good bit of our competition, so we're gonna need some coaching to go along with that recruiting in order to win.

 

[Vespidae]

What standards are you referring to? Your own personal standards?

I think I understand what you are saying but a coach doesn’t have to grab a guy by the face mask to make a point. I use to feel the same way about Bobby Cremins. He was the Collins of hoops. My perception of Cremins when I was at GT and a younger man was that he couldn’t coach a lick, spent the games jumping around while his assistants actually coached. But looking back I’d take him back in a second. Why? Because the guy brought in players that could win. I will always love Cremins for 2 reasons - Dennis Scott and Kenny Anderson. Those two players made my college experience a fun one. Collins will succeed because GT plays in a weak division and he will get players on campus. Just watching Sims, Gibbs, and Brown has been fun especially knowing they are all back for at least 2 more seasons (I know Brown could go early but I doubt he will).

Where did I say anything about my standards? Or grabbing a player by the face mask? You can quote me if you want because I didn't.

Collins has to have his own standards .. one he believes will make his team deliver the results he thinks is appropriate. Does he? Who knows ... he doesn't talk about it. He's very vague on the issue and talks in platitudes. Maybe he does ... I just don't know. I do know Saban has standards. Saban has standards for dress codes, ability to speak properly (and how to be interviewed), how to conduct yourselves, etc. I know Pruitt has standards because I heard him talk about what is expected to play at UT ... "This" is what we expect and if you can't do it, then ... we have to make a change. And he did.

Cremins had standards. His practices were detailed and hundreds of reps. And he pretty much only played 6 players ... because that was his belief system.

Geoff seems like a good guy. Just don't ask him to speak in specifics.

 

[Vespidae]

This is the premise that keeps getting floated around. I am not sure that I buy it. VT has historically recruited in the low to mid 20's, occasionally dipping into the 15-20 range. They have struggled a bit in the last couple of years, but have shown that they can recruit talent to their campus. Miami is typically in the top 15 in recruiting. UNC has historically recruited in the top 25 range as well, and will get better under Brown. Pitt and UVA are both currently ranked ahead of us in recruiting this year, so as of right now, we are 5th in the Coastal in incoming talent for 2021, ahead of only Duke and VT. If we are depending on winning by "get(ting) players on campus" then we probably ought to make sure we are we are recruiting better than the other teams in our "weak division." The reality is that CGC IS getting players on campus, but so is a good bit of our competition, so we're gonna need some coaching to go along with that recruiting in order to win.

This is just nonsense. Geoff is the MAN! He's going to get 30 five stars next year and we will win 5 natty's in a row. Jeez! Get on board the Geoff Train!

 

[Oakland]

If Collins is successful, Todd Stansbury will be viewed as a man of vision. If the Collins hire turns out to be a mistake, how will Stansbury be viewed by the Tech donors and community? Next year could start to be tricky if we win just a couple of games again. I believe Stansbury will back Collins up to 4 to 5 years of lackluster play, but I'm not so sure about the fan base. People, especially if you're trying to draw new fans, are not going to want buy tickets to watch losing football. Frankly I don't think Collins or Stansbury has a finger on the pulse of the fans that attend our home games. I hope I'm wrong and Stansbury turns out to be a marketing and football genius.

 

[Vespidae]

If the Collins hire turns out to be a mistake, how will Stansbury be viewed by the Tech donors and community?

I don't think TStan has any mandate other than to keep the alumni base happy and giving money. If we go 7-5 every year, TStan will be there a long time.

But ...

He is betting the farm that he can get the big donors to up the ante at the expense of the current fanbase. I think that's dangerous. Younger alumni do not give money or buy tickets in the volume that the older alumni do and that's fact, not opinion. If TStan and Geoff are wrong ... we're Vandy. For a very long time.

 

[cthenrys]

because we would have been better then ??? Who was going to replace all the “processed” recruits ? And yes I wouldn‘t have been thrilled. I’m very happy being Georgia Tech and have no interesting in becoming a football factory. We used to do pretty well that way...

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

I don't think TStan has any mandate other than to keep the alumni base happy and giving money. If we go 7-5 every year, TStan will be there a long time.

But ...

He is betting the farm that he can get the big donors to up the ante at the expense of the current fanbase. I think that's dangerous. Younger alumni do not give money or buy tickets in the volume that the older alumni do and that's fact, not opinion. If TStan and Geoff are wrong ... we're Vandy. For a very long time.

I said it when CPJ retired, and I'll reiterate it now, but TStan's and GT footballs future was never in jeopardy with this hire. We can afford to get this hire wrong in terms of wins and losses as long as the process of the rebuild is done well. If by year 5-7 we still aren't winning more than 5-6 games, it won't really matter much in terms of the future. As long as CGC does what he was hired to do, which is fix our "brand" and move the recruiting needle, then his years here will be successful if for nothing else than to set the foundation for the next coach, which would absolutely be the most critical hire that TStan and GT need to get right. In December 2018 we weren't an attractive job, as few coaches really had any interest in taking on this rebuild, but if we stockpile some talent and get our image out there, more quality coaches will be willing to give us a shot next time around. It's far easier to come in and build a team already stocked with the kinds of talent GT is recruiting now vs the more unique talent pool we had acquired under CPJ.

None of this is to say that CGC won't succeed here, or that TStan didn't expect him to, as I believe TStan has faith that CGC is the right guy to win at GT sooner rather than later. Rather, this is merely pointing out that our future isn't completely dependent on the overall success of CGC.