2020 Offseason Thread

SOWEGA Jacket

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I agree we typically maintained one good receiver like bebe, hill, smelter, but we weren’t deep. My perception may be more due to the offense than the talent level though.

I do think we will be deeper at that position than we have been for a while. I know when I was in school it was nice lining up kelly Campbell, Kerry Watkins, and Jonathan Smith at the same time.
That’s what Collins is getting back to. Under the option unfortunately, our passing game became the “Chuck it and pray” type because our QB and line weren’t built for it. I love Johnson but in my mind his greatest flaw was never being able to mesh the brilliant option style of Georgia Southern with the passing game of his Hawaii days. That’s what I expected at GT, but instead he let age and stubbornness take away his edge and brilliance and he dug in his heels. I bet he has many regrets because his system works. I would have loved a 35 year old Johnson at GT. Collins strength is the other way. He’ll get talent and turn it loose across the board.
 

ncjacket79

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That’s what Collins is getting back to. Under the option unfortunately, our passing game became the “Chuck it and pray” type because our QB and line weren’t built for it. I love Johnson but in my mind his greatest flaw was never being able to mesh the brilliant option style of Georgia Southern with the passing game of his Hawaii days. That’s what I expected at GT, but instead he let age and stubbornness take away his edge and brilliance and he dug in his heels. I bet he has many regrets because his system works. I would have loved a 35 year old Johnson at GT. Collins strength is the other way. He’ll get talent and turn it loose across the board.
Just not sure you actually can mesh the old Ga Southern and Hawaii offenses because the demands on the OL seem so different. It would have been something to see though. Agree on Collins take.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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I’m just going by what Johnson said early on - that his offense wasn’t just “one play” but had run and shoot principles. We just never saw it. I believe a thirty something year old Johnson would have destroyed the ACC. The closest we got was some of the Tevin days because he was the one QB we had that appeared to really understand progressions. Thomas had moments but he was just very inconsistent in the passing game overall. Same with Nesbitt. Both had running skills that were elite but for a team to be consistently a winner you gotta be able to run and pass.
 

alagold

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With 190 lb backs consistently having to block 230 Lbs or 250 lb DEs (not to mention the a questionable OL) after the QB faking to a Bback and no big TE over the middle- good luck on a having a good pass attack.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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Agreed. I was hoping he would better utilize the roster to run a beautiful option running attack while also able to go 4-5 wide. Why have 12 A-backs and no big body like a TE. I believe Johnson has a wonderful schematic mind but it’s almost like he never trusted the players to try something different. I blame most of it on the stupid D-coordinators we faced who never forced him to innovate. Johnson realized pretty quickly that he could win a lot of games just by being a one trick pony. Then as the ACC upgraded around him the option got stuffed and we had no QB who could handle a passing game.

I believe that within 5 years you’ll see a spread option dynamic young coach start mixing in 2 and 3 running back sets while still keeping the passing principles. The pendulum always swings
 

JacketOff

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Agreed. I was hoping he would better utilize the roster to run a beautiful option running attack while also able to go 4-5 wide. Why have 12 A-backs and no big body like a TE. I believe Johnson has a wonderful schematic mind but it’s almost like he never trusted the players to try something different. I blame most of it on the stupid D-coordinators we faced who never forced him to innovate. Johnson realized pretty quickly that he could win a lot of games just by being a one trick pony. Then as the ACC upgraded around him the option got stuffed and we had no QB who could handle a passing game.

I believe that within 5 years you’ll see a spread option dynamic young coach start mixing in 2 and 3 running back sets while still keeping the passing principles. The pendulum always swings
Strangely enough, I believe the 2 years the offense was the most nuanced was 08 and 09 with players not recruited for the “system.” If you go back and watch some games, the 08 and 09 offenses operate differently than the 14 one, even though those were the best 3 years under CPJ. 14’s scheme is much more similar to 18’s, but the roster was much more talented in 14.

Does anyone know the last time a QB took a snap from a pistol or shotgun set under CPJ? Maybe Vad Lee? Both Monken and Coach Ken have surpassed CPJ in innovation, and last year’s Army v. Navy game is what I wish CPJ would’ve molded Tech into. They were playing in a true “spread option” while tech went from a spread option in 08 and 09 to just a flexbone option from 2012 on. Sooner or later, a P5 school woth maybe more resources than Tech had is going to hire a 3O coach and everybody is going to wish we had innovated with it and grown the program, instead of pissing any and all success with the 3O away.
 

Techster

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Just not sure you actually can mesh the old Ga Southern and Hawaii offenses because the demands on the OL seem so different. It would have been something to see though. Agree on Collins take.
You know CPJ is gonna get hired somewhere and he's gonna start chucking the ball all over the place, then run flex option after amassing a 40 point lead just to mess with DCs.

GT fans are gonna be like "WTF CPJ! Where the hell was that?!"
 

ncjacket79

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You know CPJ is gonna get hired somewhere and he's gonna start chucking the ball all over the place, then run flex option after amassing a 40 point lead just to mess with DCs.

GT fans are gonna be like "WTF CPJ! Where the hell was that?!"
Not doubting he could. But can’t do both (option plus wide open passing attack) at the same time.
 

slugboy

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Something to keep an eye on as GT is a Learfield IMG team:

Looks like most schools are IMG affiliates—54 out of 65 P5 teams are. It sounds like Learfield IMG asked for more flexibility after athletic departments set their budgets, which wouldn’t be popular.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

gtrower

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Strangely enough, I believe the 2 years the offense was the most nuanced was 08 and 09 with players not recruited for the “system.” If you go back and watch some games, the 08 and 09 offenses operate differently than the 14 one, even though those were the best 3 years under CPJ. 14’s scheme is much more similar to 18’s, but the roster was much more talented in 14.

Does anyone know the last time a QB took a snap from a pistol or shotgun set under CPJ? Maybe Vad Lee? Both Monken and Coach Ken have surpassed CPJ in innovation, and last year’s Army v. Navy game is what I wish CPJ would’ve molded Tech into. They were playing in a true “spread option” while tech went from a spread option in 08 and 09 to just a flexbone option from 2012 on. Sooner or later, a P5 school woth maybe more resources than Tech had is going to hire a 3O coach and everybody is going to wish we had innovated with it and grown the program, instead of pissing any and all success with the 3O away.
Army/Navy combined to go 4-7 for 26 passing yards and a 94-6 run/pass ratio last year. What are you even talking about.
 

THWG

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Army/Navy combined to go 4-7 for 26 passing yards and a 94-6 run/pass ratio last year. What are you even talking about.
They were running different formations and giving different looks out of the pistol and shotgun though.
 

JacketOff

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Army/Navy combined to go 4-7 for 26 passing yards and a 94-6 run/pass ratio last year. What are you even talking about.
When did I ever say anything about throwing the ball? What are you even talking about? Does nuance = throwing now? Please watch the highlights from last year’s game and look at how many plays were run out of shotgun and pistol sets, especially by Navy. Navy was running sets out of traditional 1RB, 1TE, 3WR formations from the shotgun that look more like Alabama than Georgia Tech did under CPJ. They had so many chunk plays off of shotgun read options, that once again, looked like Alabama with Jalen Hurts. By the end of the CPJ era Tech hardly ran anything besides a standard flexbone set. Had Tech been nuanced at all in our looks, I would bet there would have been more success in the last few years. Especially if there would’ve been a QB who could throw at all. I bet if you put Jordan Yates in Coach Ken’s system he’d be every bit as effective that Malcom Perry was, and probably more so because he can actually throw it.

And if you want to compare records, Navy had the same amount of 10 win seasons, more bowl wins, fewer losing seasons, and a better overall record than Tech did while CPJ was here. Now, is their schedule much easier? Of course, but their recruiting classes are also much worse. And no, it’s not relevant how many more players they can bring in, because the quality of those players is still less than anybody Tech should be able to recruit. Seems like innovation works...
 

gtrower

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When did I ever say anything about throwing the ball? What are you even talking about? Does nuance = throwing now? Please watch the highlights from last year’s game and look at how many plays were run out of shotgun and pistol sets, especially by Navy. Navy was running sets out of traditional 1RB, 1TE, 3WR formations from the shotgun that look more like Alabama than Georgia Tech did under CPJ. They had so many chunk plays off of shotgun read options, that once again, looked like Alabama with Jalen Hurts. By the end of the CPJ era Tech hardly ran anything besides a standard flexbone set. Had Tech been nuanced at all in our looks, I would bet there would have been more success in the last few years. Especially if there would’ve been a QB who could throw at all. I bet if you put Jordan Yates in Coach Ken’s system he’d be every bit as effective that Malcom Perry was, and probably more so because he can actually throw it.

And if you want to compare records, Navy had the same amount of 10 win seasons, more bowl wins, fewer losing seasons, and a better overall record than Tech did while CPJ was here. Now, is their schedule much easier? Of course, but their recruiting classes are also much worse. And no, it’s not relevant how many more players they can bring in, because the quality of those players is still less than anybody Tech should be able to recruit. Seems like innovation works...
So your wish is that we had passed less, but done it out of shot gun? Because innovation?

Rewatching the game it looks like Monken was running something very similar to CPJs O. Not sure what you saw there. Navy did have a lot of SG snaps and 3 WR sets. Also looked like identical plays to what we ran with some window dressing, conceding 3 yards to start every play, and giving the QB a bit longer to make the read. Certainly did not look more like Bama than SO.

I don’t think chunk plays was ever our problem. I’ll go look at some stats at some point when I get some free time. I’d bet we were Top 10ish in chunk plays % over his tenure depending on how you want to define it. No worse than Top 20. Our issue was always pass blocking.

If shotgun would have helped our pass blocking at all then I would have been for some more experimentation. We certainly could have used an expanded passing game for recruiting if nothing else. Would have hurt the run game though. Had to have been one of the best short yardage teams as well over his tenure. Either way, based on that game Navy was throwing even less than us. Can’t imagine many people would have been happy with that.
 

JacketOff

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So your wish is that we had passed less, but done it out of shot gun? Because innovation?

Rewatching the game it looks like Monken was running something very similar to CPJs O. Not sure what you saw there. Navy did have a lot of SG snaps and 3 WR sets. Also looked like identical plays to what we ran with some window dressing, conceding 3 yards to start every play, and giving the QB a bit longer to make the read. Certainly did not look more like Bama than SO.

I don’t think chunk plays was ever our problem. I’ll go look at some stats at some point when I get some free time. I’d bet we were Top 10ish in chunk plays % over his tenure depending on how you want to define it. No worse than Top 20. Our issue was always pass blocking.

If shotgun would have helped our pass blocking at all then I would have been for some more experimentation. We certainly could have used an expanded passing game for recruiting if nothing else. Would have hurt the run game though. Had to have been one of the best short yardage teams as well over his tenure. Either way, based on that game Navy was throwing even less than us. Can’t imagine many people would have been happy with that.
Navy vs. Notre Dame 2019:
64-281 yards on the ground
4-13 79 yards 1 TD through the air

Georgia Tech vs. Georgia 2018
46-128 yards
5-14 91 yards 1 TD through the air

Georgia Tech vs. Clemson 2018
56-146 yards
3-8 57 yards 1 TD through the air

Army vs. Michigan 2019
61-200yards
2-5 43 yards through the air

Navy had multiple games last year where they threw for 150+ yards. Obviously they are running the same basic scheme that CPJ did, but there are definitely more modern concepts built in. Like I said, their shotgun read options look way more like Alabama or any other “pro style spread” team than what Tech’s did. As you mentioned, it gives the QB more time to make the read, and with a QB who can throw, you can add an RPO concept to the original RO play call. The same concepts out of different formations still require the defense to make adjustments. Didn’t a lot of you guys criticize CDP this year for not calling more running plays from under center? Why? Because it creates different looks, and allows the back to receive the ball with more momentum. Taking snaps out of the shotgun allows you more space and time to make reads, and is ideal in the passing game. You’re telling me nothing would have changed if Tech would’ve ran the same concepts that CPJ stuck to out of the shotgun? Like I said earlier, if you QB has any sort of arm talent it creates so much more chaos on the defensive side of the ball. Lamar Jackson and the Ravens are the perfect example of that. They can run the trap option out of the shotgun, and out of the same formation they could run any sort of flood or levels passing concepts.

I think we’re arguing about different points entirely. You seem more focused on just the passing side of it, while I’m trying to explain how spreading the offense back out could allow for the same concepts to be ran out of multiple looks, with the added benefit of a better passing game. Not necessarily that the passing game would be used more often, just that it would probably become more effective.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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I love Johnson, but when our yearly competition got a better handle of holding us in check he never innovated but instead dug in. Add the simple fact that he didn’t have a QB to replace Thomas and the end was a whimper not a bang. I really believe that after having a year and a half off from the grind that Coach Johnson sits in his chair and has many regrets. His system works and his mind was stellar but the fog of the here and now caused him to just keep chugging along with the same system. I just really hope that Collins does not let that sort of malaise set in years down the road. He seems like a guy willing to try new things and I’m all for it. And the key is having high quality players gives you much more room for error. With a talent like Gibbs or Brown it isn’t hard to just give them the ball in space and get the heck out of the way. That’s all Saban and Dabo do. But you gotta have the horses at WR and RB to do that. Collins is working on it.
 
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