11/23 - MBB vs. #18 Cincinnati

[spdrama]

Interesting take, but it begs the question, by what mechanism or process does confidence originate?

Fan support may create positive feedback in confidence for a team but it sure ain't gong to create team or player confidence de novo.

I'm sorry, but I can't bridge the idea that we have good coaches, good approach and good players but by some black-box miracle, it comes together in poor play. The diffusion of accountability in that take rankles.

WINNING. It begets winning. Losing begets losing. And that, in turn, leads to loss of confidence. Home is more than where the heart is. It’s where you want to play. Always thinking “Great, we’ve got a home stand coming up”. Or “Thank goodness we are going home” after a bad road loss. Why do ratings & betting odds add 2-4 points to the home team? What are the home records of the better teams? And what size crowds to they get? Why are those venues a tough place for even great teams to visit & win? We have kids who played in front of bigger crowds in their HS gyms than at home in McCamish.

Were there coaches out there who would have been able to instantly attract 5* HS & portal recruits for a quicker rebuild than CDS? Sure, assuming CDS even has a shot of returning GT basketball to prominence. But, why would they even want to come here. I’d bet big $ that CDS will regret taking this thankless job before Batt regrets hiring him.

Lots of things about this program needs fixin’. But it just ain’t all team play. I remember some glory years. Stood with Ismail Muhammad’s dad, arms around each other as the team received their pre-season NIT championship awards at MSG, having defeated eventual NCAA champ UConn to reach the finals, only to lose to them in the season tourney finale. From that to watching louder cheers for Bearcats than Yellow Jackets yesterday. Watching GT players at the foul line in front of their own bench getting heckled by a section littered in red shirts on their home court.

It amazes me that if there is a STEM problem facing the world a fix can be found on the GT campus or it just can’t be found & renewing interest in GT basketball looks to be a lost cause. I understand your position. But this is a problem that runs much deeper than the team game play issues you & other fans address. This was a great program once that has been allowed to decay & rot. New faces of people moving into a delapitated house doesn’t fix the house. This house needs repairing before any new coach or players are going to look good in it. I get why kids would love to play for Damon Stoudamire. Don’t get why any kid would want to play their home games in McCamish.

Had no appreciation for the depth or seriousness of how far this program has fallen from afar. Yesterday was a sad day for this fan & not because we lost. Thank goodness I got to meet & hug my first great-grandchild. Maybe she will get to see a new era of GT basketball glory.

 

[AUFC]

WINNING. It begets winning. Losing begets losing. And that, in turn, leads to loss of confidence. Home is more than where the heart is. It’s where you want to play. Always thinking “Great, we’ve got a home stand coming up”. Or “Thank goodness we are going home” after a bad road loss. Why do ratings & betting odds add 2-4 points to the home team? What are the home records of the better teams? And what size crowds to they get? Why are those venues a tough place for even great teams to visit & win? We have kids who played in front of bigger crowds in their HS gyms than at home in McCamish.

Were there coaches out there who would have been able to instantly attract 5* HS & portal recruits for a quicker rebuild than CDS? Sure, assuming CDS even has a shot of returning GT basketball to prominence. But, why would they even want to come here. I’d bet big $ that CDS will regret taking this thankless job before Batt regrets hiring him.

Lots of things about this program needs fixin’. But it just ain’t all team play. I remember some glory years. Stood with Ismail Muhammad’s dad, arms around each other as the team received their pre-season NIT championship awards at MSG, having defeated eventual NCAA champ UConn to reach the finals, only to lose to them in the season tourney finale. From that to watching louder cheers for Bearcats than Yellow Jackets yesterday. Watching GT players at the foul line in front of their own bench getting heckled by a section littered in red shirts on their home court.

It amazes me that if there is a STEM problem facing the world a fix can be found on the GT campus or it just can’t be found & renewing interest in GT basketball looks to be a lost cause. I understand your position. But this is a problem that runs much deeper than the team game play issues you & other fans address. This was a great program once that has been allowed to decay & rot. New faces of people moving into a delapitated house doesn’t fix the house. This house needs repairing before any new coach or players are going to look good in it. I get why kids would love to play for Damon Stoudamire. Don’t get why any kid would want to play their home games in McCamish.

Had no appreciation for the depth or seriousness of how far this program has fallen from afar. Yesterday was a sad day for this fan & not because we lost. Thank goodness I got to meet & hug my first great-grandchild. Maybe she will get to see a new era of GT basketball glory.

We need more fanatics - I know I'm speaking to the choir here on the Swarm basketball forum where we all are going to attend the games, tune in on TV for road games, and support the team win or lose but there just aren't many of us. And it starts with the students - they seem to have a blast at the football games supporting the team, partying with friends pre-game and in-game, cathartically screaming their lungs out on 3rd down given the chance to ignore exam anxiety for 3 hours - are they aware they can do all that at basketball games? Even better, they get to do that almost 20 times a year for basketball versus 6 times a year for football. Why is football selling out the student season tickets and the place to be on gamedays but McCamish isn't? The weather is typically better in McCamish than Bobby Dodd to boot. The biggest mark on CDS for me right now is he has zero relationship with the student body. I know he's an outsider whereas Key has a GT degree, but the difference in undergraduate population-coach relationship for the two coaches is absolutely glaring even for the largest CDS supporters.

 

[57jacket]

I'm just shocked at our poor play. I thought we had accumulated some good talent. Are we that short on talent? Or, as some suggested is it coaching? I played for 20 years, and I didn't need a coach to tell me to play hard. I just find it hard to believe that the poor individual play is on the coach. Continally getten beat on dribble drives is lack of qiuckness. When I played a quicker player, I had to give up the 3 to prevent the layup, and blocked out for the rebound.. I saw the oposite last night. But what the hell do I know. I'm only 90 years old. LOL. One other point and I'll shut up. Regarding the lack of crowd support. While it clearly has an effect, hungry, inspired players will play on an outdoor court in the rain with zero fans. Enough from me. Carry on. LOL. Go Lady Jackets!

 

[MtnWasp]

WINNING. It begets winning. Losing begets losing. And that, in turn, leads to loss of confidence. Home is more than where the heart is. It’s where you want to play. Always thinking “Great, we’ve got a home stand coming up”. Or “Thank goodness we are going home” after a bad road loss. Why do ratings & betting odds add 2-4 points to the home team? What are the home records of the better teams? And what size crowds to they get? Why are those venues a tough place for even great teams to visit & win? We have kids who played in front of bigger crowds in their HS gyms than at home in McCamish.

Were there coaches out there who would have been able to instantly attract 5* HS & portal recruits for a quicker rebuild than CDS? Sure, assuming CDS even has a shot of returning GT basketball to prominence. But, why would they even want to come here. I’d bet big $ that CDS will regret taking this thankless job before Batt regrets hiring him.

Lots of things about this program needs fixin’. But it just ain’t all team play. I remember some glory years. Stood with Ismail Muhammad’s dad, arms around each other as the team received their pre-season NIT championship awards at MSG, having defeated eventual NCAA champ UConn to reach the finals, only to lose to them in the season tourney finale. From that to watching louder cheers for Bearcats than Yellow Jackets yesterday. Watching GT players at the foul line in front of their own bench getting heckled by a section littered in red shirts on their home court.

It amazes me that if there is a STEM problem facing the world a fix can be found on the GT campus or it just can’t be found & renewing interest in GT basketball looks to be a lost cause. I understand your position. But this is a problem that runs much deeper than the team game play issues you & other fans address. This was a great program once that has been allowed to decay & rot. New faces of people moving into a delapitated house doesn’t fix the house. This house needs repairing before any new coach or players are going to look good in it. I get why kids would love to play for Damon Stoudamire. Don’t get why any kid would want to play their home games in McCamish.

Had no appreciation for the depth or seriousness of how far this program has fallen from afar. Yesterday was a sad day for this fan & not because we lost. Thank goodness I got to meet & hug my first great-grandchild. Maybe she will get to see a new era of GT basketball glory.

I am reading your words and I feel you in a vague way, but mostly I am lost in the fog.

We agree that the program's lack of juice originates in the "intangibles" side of the ledger sheet (as opposed to concrete, technical aspects).

However, GT is not the only down program in the history of college athletics and many of others have seen resurrection.

The question is how, precisely and concretely, do those rebuilds happen?

I guess I might be misreading you, but I gather you think that a grassroots up-swell in fan support and enthusiasm precedes and spearheads improvement on the court. Do you have a historical precedent where fan enthusiasm for a down program precedes and spearheads program resurrection?

As down as the program is now, it is not as down as it was when Cremins took over. I saw that happen, and Cremins gave fans a reason to come and cheer.

Often forgotten about Mark Price and John Salley is that they would have been three star recruits. What is generally dismissed about Mark Price's Freshman year where he averaged 20 points per game was that he played really hard. Cremins recruited Yvonne Joseph and Dalrymple to enter in '84 and those players were tough as nails. In Price and Salley's soph years and Dalrymple's Frosh season, the team was 18-11 (6-8). The wins were not immediate, but the toughness and the element of playing hard emerged right away. Fans could feel that energy.

Maybe the fan base was more hungry for that back then. Pastner took a team that was projected to be nothing in year one and won ACC coach of the year with them. We had back-to-back 11 win ACC seasons led by a PG who was an inspiration and had an ACC player of the year. Fans were 'meh.' They never got behind the program and we had an AD who financially suffocated the basketball program.

I wonder whether Gt supporters really want to support a program at all and that the lack of winning merely justifies their lack of support. But even if we win, would these old fans fill the seats?

I suspect we need a new generation of fans to do that.

But I also think that the program has to show a spark competitiveness before the new fans show-up (if they do). The team has not shown anything close to that spark so far this season.

A lot of words there to say that the team has to play harder, and with a competitive edge, to have any chance of turning things around. It starts with playing hard.

 

[spdrama]

I'm just shocked at our poor play. I thought we had accumulated some good talent. Are we that short on talent? Or, as some suggested is it coaching? I played for 20 years, and I didn't need a coach to tell me to play hard. I just find it hard to believe that the poor individual play is on the coach. Continally getten beat on dribble drives is lack of qiuckness. When I played a quicker player, I had to give up the 3 to prevent the layup, and blocked out for the rebound.. I saw the oposite last night. But what the hell do I know. I'm only 90 years old. LOL. One other point and I'll shut up. Regarding the lack of crowd support. While it clearly has an effect, hungry, inspired players will play on an outdoor court in the rain with zero fans. Enough from me. Carry on. LOL. Go Lady Jackets!

If you are 90 you were 52 or older when you defended the 3. I don’t think these players have lost inspiration because of crowd size, but home court advantage is a real thing and these kids don’t have it. Not their fault. On the flip size, visiting teams gain inspiration playing away in an empty house where their own traveling fans are louder & more supportive then the home team’s.

 

[GaTech4ever]

I definitely noticed Bandaogo going right at Ndongo and even laughing at him a couple times. It had to be a Senegalese thing. I do wonder if that got in Ndongo’s head. Something was in his head, that’s for sure.

 

[BraveandBold]

I, too, am disappointed in the team and the coaching. I expected a competitive team that would finish with a winning record, and a decent, although not certain, chance of making the tournament. None of the returning players, the foundation of this year‘s team, are improved, and all are playing below last years levels. The freshman, thus far, other than Onwuchekwas, have contributed little, and the transfers, while showing flashes, have been inconsistent. We have been out-hustled, out-played, shown little defense, and are ragged offensively. I see Stoudamire making no effective adjustments, before or during the game. The fact that the ACC appears to be down, again, offers some hope that we can still turn the season around, but I am not optimistic going forward.

And, I don’t blame the poor play on the lack of fans. If the team plays hard, is competitive, and wins, attendance will pick up.

 

[MtnWasp]

I, too, am disappointed in the team and the coaching. I expected a competitive team that would finish with a winning record, and a decent, although not certain, chance of making the tournament. None of the returning players, the foundation of this year‘s team, are improved, and all are playing below last years levels. The freshman, thus far, other than Onwuchekwas, have contributed little, and the transfers, while showing flashes, have been inconsistent. We have been out-hustled, out-played, shown little defense, and are ragged offensively. I see Stoudamire making no effective adjustments, before or during the game. The fact that the ACC appears to be down, again, offers some hope that we can still turn the season around, but I am not optimistic going forward.

This post I think concisely and accurately describes our season to date.

 

[MWBATL]

Trust me, as a former season ticket holder in the high priced sections who no longer attends home games…winning begets crowds.

 

[alagold]

I knew that we would struggle vs this good team but it was a gut punch to see how bad we were. -AT HOME.Well, maybe they'll play better on the road--couldn't be much worse, no pressure..
Did we lose so much from last yr ,that this is what we are left with? VERY disturbing to say the least. No effort, no plan,no skill, no fans. hmmmm---maybe put Key in charge.

 

[cpf2001]

It definitely starts and ends with the coach. I think any coach should get a few recruiting classes, but Stoudamire is not buying any more good will right now. The players who are disappointing right now are guys he brought in, though on a short timeline in the first year; future classes look promising.

But the inexplicable bit is that they are guys who looked much better under him last year. Cutting minutes until they show back up seems like a reasonable approach. But it sucks that it came to that so quickly.

Or they were just more one-dimensional than we’d hoped and the scouting reports are widespread now. In which case… can we cook something up to counter?

 

[57jacket]

If you are 90 you were 52 or older when you defended the 3. I don’t think these players have lost inspiration because of crowd size, but home court advantage is a real thing and these kids don’t have it. Not their fault. On the flip size, visiting teams gain inspiration playing away in an empty house where their own traveling fans are louder & more supportive then the home team’s.

LOL. You are correct. It was the long jump shot. I last played in 1975 I believe.

 

[spdrama]

I am reading your words and I feel you in a vague way, but mostly I am lost in the fog.

We agree that the program's lack of juice originates in the "intangibles" side of the ledger sheet (as opposed to concrete, technical aspects).

However, GT is not the only down program in the history of college athletics and many of others have seen resurrection.

The question is how, precisely and concretely, do those rebuilds happen?

I guess I might be misreading you, but I gather you think that a grassroots up-swell in fan support and enthusiasm precedes and spearheads improvement on the court. Do you have a historical precedent where fan enthusiasm for a down program precedes and spearheads program resurrection?

As down as the program is now, it is not as down as it was when Cremins took over. I saw that happen, and Cremins gave fans a reason to come and cheer.

Often forgotten about Mark Price and John Salley is that they would have been three star recruits. What is generally dismissed about Mark Price's Freshman year where he averaged 20 points per game was that he played really hard. Cremins recruited Yvonne Joseph and Dalrymple to enter in '84 and those players were tough as nails. In Price and Salley's soph years and Dalrymple's Frosh season, the team was 18-11 (6-8). The wins were not immediate, but the toughness and the element of playing hard emerged right away. Fans could feel that energy.

Maybe the fan base was more hungry for that back then. Pastner took a team that was projected to be nothing in year one and won ACC coach of the year with them. We had back-to-back 11 win ACC seasons led by a PG who was an inspiration and had an ACC player of the year. Fans were 'meh.' They never got behind the program and we had an AD who financially suffocated the basketball program.

I wonder whether Gt supporters really want to support a program at all and that the lack of winning merely justifies their lack of support. But even if we win, would these old fans fill the seats?

I suspect we need a new generation of fans to do that.

But I also think that the program has to show a spark competitiveness before the new fans show-up (if they do). The team has not shown anything close to that spark so far this season.

A lot of words there to say that the team has to play harder, and with a competitive edge, to have any chance of turning things around. It starts with playing hard.

Cremins went 10-16 (3-11) season 1 & 13-15 (4-10) season 2? If we had social media back then with the Swarm, what would have posted 5 games into his season 2 & after its completion?

 

[Rzunz]

We need more fanatics - I know I'm speaking to the choir here on the Swarm basketball forum where we all are going to attend the games, tune in on TV for road games, and support the team win or lose but there just aren't many of us. And it starts with the students - they seem to have a blast at the football games supporting the team, partying with friends pre-game and in-game, cathartically screaming their lungs out on 3rd down given the chance to ignore exam anxiety for 3 hours - are they aware they can do all that at basketball games? Even better, they get to do that almost 20 times a year for basketball versus 6 times a year for football. Why is football selling out the student season tickets and the place to be on gamedays but McCamish isn't? The weather is typically better in McCamish than Bobby Dodd to boot. The biggest mark on CDS for me right now is he has zero relationship with the student body. I know he's an outsider whereas Key has a GT degree, but the difference in undergraduate population-coach relationship for the two coaches is absolutely glaring even for the largest CDS supporters.

Somehow, someway, they have to wake up the students…

 

[reckrider]

Somehow, someway, they have to wake up the students…

Pastner used to show up in classes with donuts. Maybe CDS needs a student outreach program.

 

[MtnWasp]

Cremins went 10-16 (3-11) season 1 & 13-15 (4-10) season 2? If we had social media back then with the Swarm, what would have posted 5 games into his season 2 & after its completion?

There would have been Haters, fo sho. There was an energy to Cremins program though. Would it have translated in this era? How could one know?

Still there must be a means to rebuild a program in the information age! If we there are signs that Stoudamire is building something, what are those signs?

 

[spdrama]

There would have been Haters, fo sho. There was an energy to Cremins program though. Would it have translated in this era? How could one know?

Still there must be a means to rebuild a program in the information age! If we there are signs that Stoudamire is building something, what are those signs?

I don’t think retrospective energy looking back 40+ years is a real thing. In the age of NIL donors tell me what tools CDS is being given to build with. Obviously I don’t see the problems as being related to CDS and my visit yesterday confirmed that. At least in my mind. Let the haters hate. I will take CDS’ side looking at the overall picture. Now we have folks suggesting CDS take doughnuts to classrooms and engage with students. Lots of good that did Pastner who couldn’t draw students to a game even with a couple of winnings season. Wasn’t lack of attendance given as one reason he was canned?

 

[MtnWasp]

I don’t think retrospective energy looking back 40+ years is a real thing.

We'll agree to disagree on this point. That energy reached me on the campus of Emory. Cremins had the attention of the media quite early.

In the age of NIL donors tell me what tools CDS is being given to build with.

Seriously? Karl Hobbs alone makes about as much as Pastner's entire staff of about 5 people. Stoudamire's first full class of Mustaf, Sutton and Onwuchekwa is better than anything Pastner could muster with zero NIL budget. We just got a commit from the #13 prospect in the 2026 class. You want to invoke poverty? That is a story-line that I am not buying. I don't think Stoudamire's compensation budget is uncompetitive.

Obviously I don’t see the problems as being related to CDS and my visit yesterday confirmed that. At least in my mind.

Divorcing Stoudamire from the play of his team seems rather whacked to me.

Wasn’t lack of attendance given as one reason he was canned?

No. The GTAA have been rather silent about attendance for many years. JBatt just wanted his own guy.

 

[lv20gt]

When you start with the conclusion that CDS can do no wrong, it's fairly easy to reach the conclusion that he hasn't done anything wrong.

The quality of basketball may be low, but the quality of the mental gymnastics here is high.

 

[Wrecked]

Somehow, someway, they have to wake up the students…

Student section was full for the UGA game. The team gave them no reason to cheer.