Youth Trip, ACC Politics, Personal Decisions

[forensicbuzz]

I appreciate your desire to claim the high ground and stay neutral. However, you suggested some may be guilty of inconsistency by asserting an equivalency between this decision and Kaepernik's.

Despite your protestation of not taking sides, you took a side, imo.

Let me explain my pov. On many controversial issues, differing opinions arise from different ways of framing the question rather than just different answers to the same question.

For example, those who favor abortion rights don't talk about mothers having the right to kill their children. That's not how they frame the question. Opponents of same sex marriage don't talk about limiting the rights of homosexuals because that's not how they frame the question.

In other words, how we frame the question on controversial issues often reflects the side we're on.

So, by correlating the two decisions you, iiuc, implicitly framed the two issues as a question of an individual's right to express protest thru actions. However, I don't recall the response against Kaepernik as primarily rejecting these rights. Rather, objections focused, iirc, primarily on the context of the protest (protesting the emblem of right to protest) and on the substance (whether America systematically oppresses African Americans). Reactions here are similar. Those who disagree with this decision don't deny he has the right but rather whether it's the correct thing to do.

My take, tifwiw.

I don't disagree with what you've said, mostly. However, I will say that most (obviously not all) of the reaction to Kaepernik has been about "how" he was protesting. Similarly, many have lauded vamosjackets for taking a stand against what he feels is representative of policies contrary to his beliefs. I'm not saying either is right or wrong in their beliefs or the way they're choosing to protest, just that some of the same fonts are reacting differently in what I consider a similar scenario.

As for taking sides, my head and my heart don't always draw the same conclusions (or at least not as adamantly).

 

[AE 87]

I don't disagree with what you've said, mostly. However, I will say that most (obviously not all) of the reaction to Kaepernik has been about "how" he was protesting. Similarly, many have lauded vamosjackets for taking a stand against what he feels is representative of policies contrary to his beliefs. I'm not saying either is right or wrong in their beliefs or the way they're choosing to protest, just that some of the same fonts are reacting differently in what I consider a similar scenario.

As for taking sides, my head and my heart don't always draw the same conclusions (or at least not as adamantly).

Cool. Like I tried to say, I don't think people are responding to them on the terms of their similarity.

 

[awbuzz]

...from another, it sounds like GTAA has allowed them the swap the tickets for the UVA game. This gives them opportunity to think more about it, or more time to try and sell the tickets to recoup some of the money.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

@forensicbuzz
If Vamos had protested this issue by visibly protesting against our nation's anthem, I'd have criticized that too. The two scenarios are apples and oranges though.

 

[forensicbuzz]

@forensicbuzz
If Vamos had protested this issue by visibly protesting against our nation's anthem, I'd have criticized that too. The two scenarios are apples and oranges though.

They're different to you based on how you view the National Anthem. My thought is that what the National Anthem represents to you and what it represents to him are different. Without speaking to either of you, obviously this is an assumption. I am not chastising anyone for criticizing Kaepernik. You have the right to do that. I was just observing what is and is not considered an acceptible form of protest to people.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I don't disagree with what you've said, mostly. However, I will say that most (obviously not all) of the reaction to Kaepernik has been about "how" he was protesting. Similarly, many have lauded vamosjackets for taking a stand against what he feels is representative of policies contrary to his beliefs. I'm not saying either is right or wrong in their beliefs or the way they're choosing to protest, just that some of the same fonts are reacting differently in what I consider a similar scenario.

As for taking sides, my head and my heart don't always draw the same conclusions (or at least not as adamantly).

I think you are on to something here.

I am going to catch bloody hell for what I am gong to say now because, well, it is the times we live in and everyone has their own form of political correctness. But here it goes. I have heard Trump say things like, "American is a third world country, we are going to hell in a hand basket, black people live in slums and can't walk outside without getting shot, our schools are a disaster, America is weak, our military leaders are a disgrace, our armed services are in shambles, the middle class is being held down and no one can get ahead, the deck is stacked against working people" and on and on. But what is strange is that when someone of color expresses dissatisfaction with our country, Trump and his surrogates say, "Blacks need to respect this country, this is a country of opportunity, you can become anything you want to be and all that holds anyone back in this country is whether you want to work hard or not, you need to learn to respect the government and people in authority" and on and on that line of reasoning goes.

My point is not whether either of these positions is right or wrong, my point is that I have a hard time understanding how someone can hold both positions at the same time. And it feels like I am seeing an awful lot of that these days.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I think you are on to something here.

I am going to catch bloody hell for what I am gong to say now because, well, it is the times we live in and everyone has their own form of political correctness. But here it goes. I have heard Trump say things like, "American is a third world country, we are going to hell in a hand basket, black people live in slums and can't walk outside without getting shot, our schools are a disaster, America is weak, our military leaders are a disgrace, our armed services are in shambles, the middle class is being held down and no one can get ahead, the deck is stacked against working people" and on and on. But what is strange is that when someone of color expresses dissatisfaction with our country, Trump and his surrogates say, "Blacks need to respect this country, this is a country of opportunity, you can become anything you want to be and all that holds anyone back in this country is whether you want to work hard or not, you need to learn to respect the government and people in authority" and on and on that line of reasoning goes.

My point is not whether either of these positions is right or wrong, my point is that I have a hard time understanding how someone can hold both positions at the same time. And it feels like I am seeing an awful lot of that these days.

wrong thread. If you want to open that discussion, start a new thread.

 

[AE 87]

They're different to you based on how you view the National Anthem. My thought is that what the National Anthem represents to you and what it represents to him are different. Without speaking to either of you, obviously this is an assumption. I am not chastising anyone for criticizing Kaepernik. You have the right to do that. I was just observing what is and is not considered an acceptible form of protest to people.

It seems to me, fwiw, that you're misunderstanding him. He's saying, iiuc, that for him the Kaepernik issue was about the national anthem and this issue is not. By making both about "acceptable form of protest," you are misrepresenting his position.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

They're different to you based on how you view the National Anthem. My thought is that what the National Anthem represents to you and what it represents to him are different. Without speaking to either of you, obviously this is an assumption. I am not chastising anyone for criticizing Kaepernik. You have the right to do that. I was just observing what is and is not considered an acceptible form of protest to people.

No, you are right about this. I think the anthem obviously means something far different than Kap does.

It, and the flag too, both symbolize, to me, what should be uniting all of us together (despite political differences) and more importantly what so many have given their lives to protect. I'll pretty much defend any other form of protest anyone wants to make as long as it doesn't damage other people's property, harm others, or infringe on others' freedoms / rights (like human chains blocking freeways).

 

[vamosjackets]

...from another, it sounds like GTAA has allowed them the swap the tickets for the UVA game. This gives them opportunity to think more about it, or more time to try and sell the tickets to recoup some of the money.

This is true. As of now, I suppose we will try to sell the tickets for the reason you stated above. So, if anyone has any interest in buying 41 tickets in a block, we have what you're looking for We bought them for $35/each so if anyone wants to buy them at that price, great! Or if you want to make an offer, I'm sure we'd be glad to entertain it as recouping some portion of it would still be extremely helpful to us.

A few posters have gone above and beyond in their generosity and said for us to keep their checks as donations to our church or youth group to help with our situation. If we end up selling the tickets and recouping all or some of the money, I will give you an update on that so that you can decide if you still want to do that with your donation.

Who knows? Maybe Dr. Peterson will email me something that totally changes the paradigm, and we can end up going.

 

[vamosjackets]

And, I just really want to say how much I have appreciated the comments on this thread and in PM's. Even from people who don't agree 100%, the level of respect and quality of discourse on this board are exemplary. It's a blessing. Bravo to you all.

Also, I want to be fair and say that the GT ticket office people I've talked with have been nice and seemingly sympathetic. And, Dr. Peterson has at least had the courtesy to email me back twice.

 

[AE 87]

I'm not trying to attack anyone with this question, but do you think Jesus would not go to the game for the reason you have given?

Fwiw, I think the challenge of this question arises from the difference in political context between 1st century Judea under Roman rule and 21st century American under a representative democracy. The type of political speech being discussed here would have been meaningless in Jesus' day.

However, I think a case can be made that Jesus' principle of render to Caesar what is Caesar's can be applied in our context as being politically active and vocal within our representative democracy. So, since the policy being defended by Bud and the ACC runs counter to Jesus' teaching on what it means to be human and the nature of human sexuality under God, I think one could argue that Jesus might favor this kind of action.

On the other hand, Jesus spent more time talking about his heavenly kingdom than earthly kingdom, so it may be that there's a difference between what Jesus would do and what he would want his disciples to do.

 

[TomOReilly]

Fwiw, I think the challenge of this question arises from the difference in political context between 1st century Judea under Roman rule and 21st century American under a representative democracy. The type of political speech being discussed here would have been meaningless in Jesus' day.

However, I think a case can be made that Jesus' principle of render to Caesar what is Caesar's can be applied in our context as being politically active and vocal within our representative democracy. So, since the policy being defended by Bud and the ACC runs counter to Jesus' teaching on what it means to be human and the nature of human sexuality under God, I think one could argue that Jesus might favor this kind of action.

On the other hand, Jesus spent more time talking about his heavenly kingdom than earthly kingdom, so it may be that there's a difference between what Jesus would do and what he would want his disciples to do.

You had me until "On the other hand"

 

[AE 87]

You had me until "On the other hand"

why?

 

[TomOReilly]

why?

I really liked the first part, BUT...

I tend to believe Jesus gave us many examples of what and how to live our lives on Earth and would believe His disciples should follow Him. Basically, saying there should be no difference despite how hard it is to accomplish.

 

[AE 87]

I really liked the first part, BUT...

I tend to believe Jesus gave us many examples of what and how to live our lives on Earth and would believe His disciples should follow Him. Basically, saying there should be no difference despite how hard it is to accomplish.

Oh, okay, no worries.

Just to explain: I was thinking it might be like Jesus, after his resurrection, sending his disciples on an intentional mission to convert the non-Jews while he didn't do that but focused on reaching "the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) While Jesus' life offers many examples to be emulated, Christians have typically believed that he had a unique mission and that he gave his followers a particular mission and that are two are not identical, though related. I'm not saying that this is the right answer to the question but a potential alternative. tifwiw

 

[AE 87]

An interesting take from the ND President ...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-ncaa-isnt-a-moral-arbiternor-should-it-be-1474841413

 

[TomOReilly]

@vamosjackets - I have my daughter and niece coming to ATL this weekend and I can buy 2 tickets. PM me is interested

 

[vamosjackets]

An interesting take from the ND President ...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-ncaa-isnt-a-moral-arbiternor-should-it-be-1474841413

Awesome. Someone in a high position speaking the truth eloquently and persuasively instead of following the herd. Wish it could've been a GT leader. I hope that gains traction.

 

[vamosjackets]

@vamosjackets - I have my daughter and niece coming to ATL this weekend and I can buy 2 tickets. PM me is interested

Thanks Tom. The GT ticket office switched our tickets from the Miami game to the UVA game to allow us more time to either resolve the issue (unlikely but possible, depending on Dr. Peterson) or to sell the tickets.

I may be able to call the ticket office again and switch 2 of the tickets back to the Miami game to sell to you. Would you like for me to do that? I'll send you a PM and we can continue this conversation that way.