When does Pastner feel heat

kg01

kg01

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ESPNjacket said:
Don't you have another 2 hour podcast to summarize for us? Show that team spirit!
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Mad Harry Potter GIF by Cameo
 
BeeRBee

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lv20gt said:
Pastner has had his issues with recruiting no doubt but they are exaggerated sometimes unintentionally and sometimes disingenuously by ignoring the new realities of transfers being key.

Lets go by his classes.

2017 - Brought in Jose, Moses, Evan Cole and Curtis Haywood. At the time it looked like a solid PG, a solid wing, and two projects. In retrospect it was an ACC PoY, ACC DPoY, an okay depth piece for a couple years. HE also brought in Brandon Alston who gave us a solid depth guard which we needed. Overall this was a great class at identifying hidden talent, the thing a lot of people constantly point to needing.

2018 - Brought in Devoe, Sjolund, Khalid Moore, and James Banks as a two year transfer. At that time Devoe was a highly thought of prospect, Moore a solid wing guy, Sjolund a project, and Banks a high potential player at a position of need that was unproven. As it turned out Devoe was great, Moore was basically what we thought (role wing player), Sjolund a bust, and Banks a great defensive big with okay offensive tools. Also brought in Phillips to provide us with a little PG depth but it didn't really pan out for him here.

Those two years were solid recruiting years. People remember otherwise because our roster was in such a bad situation we were hoping for absolute home run classes. But the classes themselves each brought in two multi year high level performers and another player that was a multi year depth piece.

2019 - Didenko and Price with Usher and Parham as transfers. This was the big swing and miss class, and even at the time it was seen as bad. Neither the recruits gave us anything. But Usher was a huge get who was a 2.5 year contributor and Parham gave us two good years of depth at guard despite not living up to billing that he had at VMI. Bad HS recruiting, but good additions out of the portal.

2020 - Gigiberia, Maxwell, Meka from HS and Howard and Sturdivant out of the portal. At the time Gigiberia committed he was a 4* while Maxwell and Meka were both good prospects (I believe Maxwell was mr basketball in Carolina). Gigi never panned out while Maxwell and Meka both had injuries early and often that hindered them. Wasn't a phenomenal class but it had solid potential pieces. In retrospect the injuries to Maxwell and Meka leave it the most what if class to me. Howard was an okay depth piece, but at the time it seemed the idea was to have him try to help bridge the gap while Gigiberia got experience. However, Gigi didn't develop, and Howard was just missued . I don't really know how much I would chalk those two to bad recruiting vs misuse and a lack of development. Either way it lands on Pastner. Sturdivant was the cream of the crop having already given us two solid years of production, and returning next year having finished the season strong.

2021 - Kelly, Coleman, Moore and bringing in Smith with 4 years of eligibility. Easily Pastner's best class at time of signing. 3 four stars and Moore was borderline iirc. And all four have them have shown potential already each averaging over 7.5 with Coleman and 9.5 and Kelly at 14.4 as a soph.

2022 - Martynov brought in as a reclassify and Bagatskis as a project. Franklin and Terry out of the portal. Weaker recruits from HS, but too early to see if they pan out. After the 2021 class that isn't terribly surprising as early playing time, for anyone that wasn't a big, wasn't likely to be available. Transfer portal targets were straight up successes. 2nd and 3rd leading scorers, and leading rebounder. Ultimately Franklin being a one year player limits how much he helps the program overall, but we needed someone who could contribute down low right away and he gave us that.

2023 - Blue Cain is a great get. As of right now we only have one more opening and should be, and appear to be, saving it for the transfer portal. Some will argue we should be expecting two or three transfers out and go ahead and lock in another recruit or two, but Pastner isn't the type to run off players to get under cap, nor would I want him to be, and it's possible we're planning to go heavier in the portal. One of the new dynamics is it's probably ideal to have some players go spend their first year or two somewhere else and then transfer in. That way you're getting the more productive years without spending the scholarship on the development years. In any case, we'll have to see how it all plays out.


Overall, the two middle years of 19-20 weren't good for different reasons (19 just not good overall, and injuries hurt 20 a good bit) and that is hurting us as we move into the years they would have been upperclassmen. Otherwise, when you're considering both highschool players and transfers, the classes have in general been good enough to be competitive but not spectacular, and not good enough to overcome the 19/20 classes so far. IF Pastner can continue to bring in the type of classes that have 2 or 3 multi year contributors (either starters or even depth pieces) then we should be able to get back to being competitive most years. The caveat to that is he has to figure out his big man use.


The reality is unless we up our NIL game the level of recruiting, regardless of coach, probably won't go that much higher. Maybe switching coaches brings a bit more consistency, or maybe a bit better fit in regards to bigs, but I wouldn't expect classes of four 4*s or any five stars to be the norm without NIL improvement even if we make a great hire. Then the question is would an improved NIL be enough to get Pastner to where he needs to be in terms of recruiting. There's no way to know, but perhaps with a better NIL program we could have convince Jose and/or Moses to come back one more year. Maybe not but we don't know. Maybe with a better NIL program we could have landed a second impact big out of the portal that could have made a difference this year.

Pastner may or may not be the answer long term, with odds are that he isn't. If we fire him I would wager that his replacement, that we would get this year, likely wouldn't be either. What we do know is we need to improve our NIL competitiveness. Do that and maybe Pastner is the guy. If not we're more likely to land a coach who is. So If we have to chose just one, I'd rather fix the NIL deal first then make the coaching change, if needed, rather than forcing the coaching change now without the NIL situation in place that the better names would probably want. Of course it isn't strictly an either or and it's possible a new coach could themselves help the NIL situation, but that's something I would expect the AD to be considering.
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Thanks for going through this.

I just want to highlight:

Sjolund
Didenko
Gigiberia

Three straight years of project big men which turned out to be failures of evaluation or development, at least in terms of getting them to be productive pieces of the get old, stay old strategy. And Pastner repeatedly said that the staff had to be excellent in evaluation and development in order to succeed at GT.

In Sjolund's recruiting thread you can find the quote where the staff was telling him he would play the role that Lammers was playing in the offense. Reveno was supposedly very high on Didenko, although by the time he enrolled I think most people thought that that must have been a mirage.
 
Peacone36

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MWBATL said:
He's too classy to do the "I told ya so" routine....

Isn't he?
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I am. At the end of the day some good people lost their jobs today and while that may be good for the future of our program, they are about to uproot their families and face uncertain futures. Which sucks.

That said, the easy part is done but the hard part is next. In regards to Ron Hunter, it’s not that I don’t like him I just think he’s….unspectacular. My hit list as far as order of phone calls:

1-Beard (I don’t know the GT $$ situation but it’s unlikely, moving on)

2-Pitino: More of a stop gap as the man is getting up there but he’d bring excitement and likely winning to the program. Assume our best players would also stick around.

3-Chris Mack: I have a problem with how things ended at Louisville. I am….acquainted with Dino Gaudio and he has always been nothing but a gentleman. I don’t know what happened at the end between the long time friends but I doubt it was all Dinos doing. Still, Mack can coach.

4-Pat Kelsey: This is the most likely of the first four listed and I’d be thrilled. The Xavier thing and the UMass thing are bothersome but the guy flat out wins games.

5-James Jones: Doubt he’d leave Yale but he performs at a high level at an academics first school.

6-Brad Underwood: I think he’s looking for the door at Illinois. I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time. Not sure we have the $$ to make him jump

7-Bob Ritchey: He wins games, he brings talent to Furman.

8-Casey Alexander: He’s not Rick Byrd but he’s a good coach. Doubt he leaves his alma mater.


Sleeper-Darian DeVries. Has won 122 games over the last five seasons. Wherever you’re coaching, that isn’t easy. The fact that he’s done that in the MVC means he’s a damn good coach

I don’t really want AAR, but I think GT calls him before a lot of these coaches I’ve listed.
 
slugboy

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Peacone36 said:
I am. At the end of the day some good people lost their jobs today and while that may be good for the future of our program, they are about to uproot their families and face uncertain futures. Which sucks.

That said, the easy part is done but the hard part is next. In regards to Ron Hunter, it’s not that I don’t like him I just think he’s….unspectacular. My hit list as far as order of phone calls:

1-Beard (I don’t know the GT $$ situation but it’s unlikely, moving on)

2-Pitino: More of a stop gap as the man is getting up there but he’d bring excitement and likely winning to the program. Assume our best players would also stick around.

3-Chris Mack: I have a problem with how things ended at Louisville. I am….acquainted with Dino Gaudio and he has always been nothing but a gentleman. I don’t know what happened at the end between the long time friends but I doubt it was all Dinos doing. Still, Mack can coach.

4-Pat Kelsey: This is the most likely of the first four listed and I’d be thrilled. The Xavier thing and the UMass thing are bothersome but the guy flat out wins games.

5-James Jones: Doubt he’d leave Yale but he performs at a high level at an academics first school.

6-Brad Underwood: I think he’s looking for the door at Illinois. I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time. Not sure we have the $$ to make him jump

7-Bob Ritchey: He wins games, he brings talent to Furman.

8-Casey Alexander: He’s not Rick Byrd but he’s a good coach. Doubt he leaves his alma mater.


Sleeper-Darian DeVries. Has won 122 games over the last five seasons. Wherever you’re coaching, that isn’t easy. The fact that he’s done that in the MVC means he’s a damn good coach

I don’t really want AAR, but I think GT calls him before a lot of these coaches I’ve listed.
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I strongly agree with how you led off. I hope Batt’s list is at least that good.

Batt saw a predecessor try to replace a coach with no plan, and was brought into the football search after Collins was fired. Now, he’s had months to prepare. Let’s hope that he’s aligned all the necessary resources, even if it’s under one year.
 
Peacone36

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slugboy said:
I strongly agree with how you led off. I hope Batt’s list is at least that good.

Batt saw a predecessor try to replace a coach with no plan, and was brought into the football search after Collins was fired. Now, he’s had months to prepare. Let’s hope that he’s aligned all the necessary resources, even if it’s under one year.
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There isn’t a list from what I’m told. We are waiting for someone to finish their season.
 
RonJohn

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Peacone36 said:
There isn’t a list from what I’m told. We are waiting for someone to finish their season.
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I think that makes the most sense. I think it would be too risky at this point to fire Pastner without having a good replacement in place. Bad move is to fire Pastner and then start a search. 4D Chess is to come to an agreement with a very good replacement, and then fire Pastner.
 
Peacone36

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RonJohn said:
I think that makes the most sense. I think it would be too risky at this point to fire Pastner without having a good replacement in place. Bad move is to fire Pastner and then start a search. 4D Chess is to come to an agreement with a very good replacement, and then fire Pastner.
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So you can immediately eliminate Beard, Mack, Alexander and probably Underwood from my list. But I think our future coach resides among those mentioned.
 
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