UVA, Baseball

LargeFO

Helluva Engineer
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3,246
I can think of numerous bone headed decisions that did not work out. A primary example is we have bunted ourselves out of numerous big innings over the years because CDH was stuck in a 1960s National League mentality of fighting for every run, despite the fact that we were scoring 6+ runs a game.

I also believe in luck, but after 17 years of failure I feel pretty confident that it is not luck, it is the coach.

Yea my thing is the whole luck spin might be passable for like 3-5 seasons. Not 15+.
 

Backstreetbuzz

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
492
The guy has a .650 winning % over 30 seasons. If fine to "believe" someone else could do better... but I don't believe it's that simple. Much worse is definitely in play too.
All true. Good examples of much worse would be Clemson after Legget and FSU after Martin. However, I, for one, am ready to risk it. I would even be OK with one more year, if I just knew for damn sure it would only be one year.
 

CTJacket

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
532
You know, I do believe in luck. Over CDHs 30 seasons, I think most of his managerial moves have been well thought out, they just never work. I have know several people in my life who do everything right but always lose and others who would find a $1M diamond after falling down drunk in a gutter.
Hiring Borrell seemed like a sure thing.... but obviously wasn't.
 

CTJacket

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
532
Here's the thing that irks me... I take offense to people coming on here posting as if almost all of us are saying things are great. I don't post a ton but I read every baseball thread and I've seen things like 'a change doesn't mean better' or whatever but I haven't seen anyone adamant that Hall needs to stay. I've known Hall since he came on, and trust me, people were saying the same exact things about Morris before we hired Hall. Morris went on and did pretty well at Miami didn't he? Before he left everyone said 'he can build a program but can't get us over the hump.' In 1994 it sure seemed like that was true.

I'm not here to defend Hall, if he's gone or not I don't want to say it's the right choice or not. He's a big boy and can fight his own battles. Batt has already shown he is not as patient as every other AD we've ever had basically ever (most of us thought Pastner had one more year for instance). Hall has also made many changes through his tenure, he's fired assistants that we never would have expected.

I would expect this. Barring a miracle run through the ACC tourney, we will see changes this offseason. If Hall can convince Batt that his plan will work (whatever that plan is) then I would expect Hall to stay. If not, I would expect him to retire (willingly or not).

But this 'all of you idiots think things are great' thing has to end. It's ridiculous and strawman. I don't think I've seen one post where the argument was 'WE CAN'T RISK A CHANGE!!!' or 'HALL IS THE BEST COACH EVER AND SHOULD STAY HERE FOEVER AND EVER'. People have said he should retire on his own terms but even that sentiment has faded significantly.

Am I concerned that the next coach might be worse? Of course, I would be a fool not to worry about that. It doesn't mean that it's wrong to make a change, it is a valid concern. Am I hopeful the next coach will be better, as Hall was better than Morris? Yes I am.

We can be fans and not continuously snipe at each other about what bad fans we are.

Sorry. Rant over.
 

Killerbees

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
154
Here's the thing that irks me... I take offense to people coming on here posting as if almost all of us are saying things are great. I don't post a ton but I read every baseball thread and I've seen things like 'a change doesn't mean better' or whatever but I haven't seen anyone adamant that Hall needs to stay. I've known Hall since he came on, and trust me, people were saying the same exact things about Morris before we hired Hall. Morris went on and did pretty well at Miami didn't he? Before he left everyone said 'he can build a program but can't get us over the hump.' In 1994 it sure seemed like that was true.

I'm not here to defend Hall, if he's gone or not I don't want to say it's the right choice or not. He's a big boy and can fight his own battles. Batt has already shown he is not as patient as every other AD we've ever had basically ever (most of us thought Pastner had one more year for instance). Hall has also made many changes through his tenure, he's fired assistants that we never would have expected.

I would expect this. Barring a miracle run through the ACC tourney, we will see changes this offseason. If Hall can convince Batt that his plan will work (whatever that plan is) then I would expect Hall to stay. If not, I would expect him to retire (willingly or not).

But this 'all of you idiots think things are great' thing has to end. It's ridiculous and strawman. I don't think I've seen one post where the argument was 'WE CAN'T RISK A CHANGE!!!' or 'HALL IS THE BEST COACH EVER AND SHOULD STAY HERE FOEVER AND EVER'. People have said he should retire on his own terms but even that sentiment has faded significantly.

Am I concerned that the next coach might be worse? Of course, I would be a fool not to worry about that. It doesn't mean that it's wrong to make a change, it is a valid concern. Am I hopeful the next coach will be better, as Hall was better than Morris? Yes I am.

We can be fans and not continuously snipe at each other about what bad fans we are.

Sorry. Rant over.
Going into the season we were projected pretty low, right? Results ended up matching expectations and I believe we all saw that coming a long time ago. Knowing this, my issue is very little development of younger players out side of a couple positions. Do we really have a top ranked recruiting classes? If so, shouldn’t they have been plugged in more consistently for experience to prepare for next year? It’s an easier pill to swallow losing when developing talent. We have another top ranked recruiting class coming and very little experience coming back. Maybe those times are gone and it’s year to year with the portal now. And I am sure we will lose a few to the portal too. Something needs to change. Just my 2 cents
 

Home Park Jacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
318
All I know is with all of the upperclassmen, whoever is coach has some roster management work ahead of them. Thankfully with the portal, things can happen fast.
 

leatherneckjacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,918
Location
Atlanta, GA
Here's the thing that irks me... I take offense to people coming on here posting as if almost all of us are saying things are great. I don't post a ton but I read every baseball thread and I've seen things like 'a change doesn't mean better' or whatever but I haven't seen anyone adamant that Hall needs to stay. I've known Hall since he came on, and trust me, people were saying the same exact things about Morris before we hired Hall. Morris went on and did pretty well at Miami didn't he? Before he left everyone said 'he can build a program but can't get us over the hump.' In 1994 it sure seemed like that was true.

I'm not here to defend Hall, if he's gone or not I don't want to say it's the right choice or not. He's a big boy and can fight his own battles. Batt has already shown he is not as patient as every other AD we've ever had basically ever (most of us thought Pastner had one more year for instance). Hall has also made many changes through his tenure, he's fired assistants that we never would have expected.

I would expect this. Barring a miracle run through the ACC tourney, we will see changes this offseason. If Hall can convince Batt that his plan will work (whatever that plan is) then I would expect Hall to stay. If not, I would expect him to retire (willingly or not).

But this 'all of you idiots think things are great' thing has to end. It's ridiculous and strawman. I don't think I've seen one post where the argument was 'WE CAN'T RISK A CHANGE!!!' or 'HALL IS THE BEST COACH EVER AND SHOULD STAY HERE FOEVER AND EVER'. People have said he should retire on his own terms but even that sentiment has faded significantly.

Am I concerned that the next coach might be worse? Of course, I would be a fool not to worry about that. It doesn't mean that it's wrong to make a change, it is a valid concern. Am I hopeful the next coach will be better, as Hall was better than Morris? Yes I am.

We can be fans and not continuously snipe at each other about what bad fans we are.

Sorry. Rant over.
Here is what irks me. 17 years of failure being blamed on bad luck or willfully disregarded. And, yes, fonts on this site are doing both.

If you have not read fonts saying we should not get rid if Hall, you are not looking too hard
 

FredJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,179
Location
Fredericksburg, Virginia
Here is what irks me. 17 years of failure being blamed on bad luck or willfully disregarded.

If you have not read fonts saying we should not get rid if Hall, you are not looking too hard
Everyone's "failure" threshold is a little... eerrr... a lot different. ...which allowed & fine & expected.

Read more carefully, though... there really aren't any posters saying don't get rid of Hall... not in recent years.
 

leatherneckjacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,918
Location
Atlanta, GA
Also, more than 20% of thise responding to the "should he retire" survey say Hall should either retire on his own terms or stay as long as he has support of major contributors. That is slightly more than no one is "adamant he needs to stay."
 

leatherneckjacket

Helluva Engineer
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Location
Atlanta, GA
Everyone's "failure" threshold is a little... eerrr... a lot different. ...which allowed & fine & expected.

Read more carefully, though... there really aren't any posters saying don't get rid of Hall... not in recent years.
Maybe I am misreading the survey when more than 20% says he should either retire on his own terms or not as long as he maintains support of alumni.
 

FredJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,179
Location
Fredericksburg, Virginia
Maybe I am misreading the survey when more than 20% says he should either retire on his own terms or not as long as he maintains support of alumni.
Yeah... very fair. I wasn't precise with my words. It's not "nobody" ... but imo it's a small percentage. As @CTJacket said... & I agree... the consensus on here seems to be a change would be "ok".
 

LargeFO

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,246
A lot of revisionist history here when it comes to Hall. But I guess it is what it is. FWIW I definitely have seen several posters say that it's too risky to tell him to retire because we are scared of the other side.
 

FredJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,179
Location
Fredericksburg, Virginia
A lot of revisionist history here when it comes to Hall. But I guess it is what it is. FWIW I definitely have seen several posters say that it's too risky to tell him to retire because we are scared of the other side.
If you're referring to me... I don't feel the way you describe but perhaps something I've said could lead to that assumption or conclusion. Also... my feelings about Hall have evolved slowly over time. (a long time). I think the 17 years of whatever it is we've done.. is more complicated than the head coach. I don't care much when or how Hall leaves. Getting better will require much better pitching.
 

CTJacket

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
532
Maybe I am misreading the survey when more than 20% says he should either retire on his own terms or not as long as he maintains support of alumni.
OK, this is a fair take but there is some nuance to it as well. The first or second post after states something to the effect of 'I'm in between 1 and 2'. Also think of the timing of the poll (even though you can change your answer I'm sure not many have), as the season has gone on and we haven't improved as much as we would like, the bloom is off the rose so to speak. I would imagine most people are closer to 2, I know I am but there is more to that (see below). I think it's wrong to fire the guy in an ugly manner but there are ways around that.

My point was the people that post on here often (by that I mean those of us who are also here in the offseason) have by and large said, 'the guy deserves some respect on the way out, he's been good for our program on the whole (no off-field nonsense and mostly a good-if-not-great on-field product), let's let him decide'. That has significantly decreased as the season has progressed and that's why 70+% say he should be retired. This year I expected some bumps along the way while we worked things out. With a few exceptions, we haven't really gotten better through the year, which is concerning to say the least.

I myself put 'maintaining support of big donors'. Why? Because this is the key to success but that doesn't mean (to me) that he needs to stay no matter what. We need money to make this thing run and as long as Tex and friends are behind Hall then I'm there too. If Batt can manage that relationship and let Hall go gracefully then fine by me. Hall has shown a lot over time but I'm not arguing that his success hasn't faded a lot. One correlation you can see with that fade is underfunding the program. Hall kept us relevant when we probably should have faded, which was probably why the program didn't get more funding. Very similar to Johnson on the football side from that aspect.

We finally started getting some big funding in and made significant improvements to the facilities etc. Everybody, I mean everybody, thought Borrell was a fantastic hire. Not a good hire, a slam dunk incredible hire - hard to fault Hall for that even though it's not worked out.

I'm 100% against an ugly breakup that loses our big donors. However, I do have faith that Batt and company can manage that transition so I'm not really worried about it. That's why I'm between those two things. If he does a farewell season next year I'm not even mad about that. Like I said, I believe he'll have to show Batt that he has a plan and Batt (plus the donors to be fair) have to be behind it or he'll likely be retired. If his plan makes sense to them he'll still be here next year for better or worse.

What I can say is that I have yet to see a single post that says he should stay forever and your posts (and some others, so not to pick on you specifically) have insinuated that. The only thing is the 'he's earned it' but I really have not seen any of those in quite a while - but I could be mistaken. If that wasn't your meaning then I apologize for reading into it something you aren't saying. I also respect that you are defending your position without resorting to any ugliness.
 

CTJacket

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
532
A lot of revisionist history here when it comes to Hall. But I guess it is what it is. FWIW I definitely have seen several posters say that it's too risky to tell him to retire because we are scared of the other side.
If you're referring to me... I don't feel the way you describe but perhaps something I've said could lead to that assumption or conclusion. Also... my feelings about Hall have evolved slowly over time. (a long time). I think the 17 years of whatever it is we've done.. is more complicated than the head coach. I don't care much when or how Hall leaves. Getting better will require much better pitching.
@LargeFO, I have not seen anyone say 'it's too risky' but what I have seen is people saying 'be careful what you wish for' which is fine. I think (to be honest) the Collins experiment is largely the feeling behind that, none of us would want to see our baseball program ruined the way football was. It is a legitimate concern by the way, although I do not think I have seen anyone say that fear should dictate how we proceed. However - and I'm not speaking for @FredJacket because he is telling you here that it's more complicated than a simple phrase - I have faith that we can figure out a next good HC. It might be Ramsey, it might not - he is the lead recruiter and bears some responsibility here too.
We hopefully have the means to move on to someone else who can keep this going and build on what we have. We will see one day. As I said before, Hall has shown time and again he's not afraid to make changes. He fired one of his good friends for cryin' out loud, I don't think he has a problem making any change. He does have to show the powers-that-be that he has a plan though, I don't have any inside information but I would be surprised if that's not the case.
 

LargeFO

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,246
@LargeFO, I have not seen anyone say 'it's too risky' but what I have seen is people saying 'be careful what you wish for' which is fine. I think (to be honest) the Collins experiment is largely the feeling behind that, none of us would want to see our baseball program ruined the way football was. It is a legitimate concern by the way, although I do not think I have seen anyone say that fear should dictate how we proceed. However - and I'm not speaking for @FredJacket because he is telling you here that it's more complicated than a simple phrase - I have faith that we can figure out a next good HC. It might be Ramsey, it might not - he is the lead recruiter and bears some responsibility here too.
We hopefully have the means to move on to someone else who can keep this going and build on what we have. We will see one day. As I said before, Hall has shown time and again he's not afraid to make changes. He fired one of his good friends for cryin' out loud, I don't think he has a problem making any change. He does have to show the powers-that-be that he has a plan though, I don't have any inside information but I would be surprised if that's not the case.

I guess I just can’t align with the “careful what you wish for” when I see us not even get out of a regional in over 15 years. I’m willing to risk it. Maybe I’ll be wrong but worth a change.
 

4shotB

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
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4,646
I think (to be honest) the Collins experiment is largely the feeling behind that, none of us would want to see our baseball program ruined the way football was.
I don't think replacing Hall is the same thing as replacing Johnson. There was a very shallow pool of people who would even consider the football job at the time for reasons we have already discussed ad nauseum. But I think the baseball program is in a different place for a whole host of reasons. IMO, we would be selecting from a much deeper and more talented candidate pool when Coach Hall leaves or retires.
 
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