Updated Helmet Guardian Cover For GT

[Golden Tornadoes]

Not sure what you are replying to. It was steve wallace in the 90s. Not dana.

Point is double helmets or similar go back 30 plus years.

Van den Berg wore something similar to that this year IIRC

 

[GTJason]

These helmets are about lessenign sub concussive impacts over time. Offenseive/Defensive linemen/ running backs and line backers benefit most. QB concussions usually happen from slaming the head on the turf backwards unfortunately this doesn't help that.

This is absolutely their marketing strategy. The independent research (we looked at them in my work for the Army) is pretty conclusive these do nothing for major blows. The sub concussive blows are the debate and it's a question that's nearly impossible to answer. Elite Marathon runners have pretty severe shaking in their heads after running 26 miles at a 4 minute pace for 2 hours let alone ultra marathon runners or even the adventurous couch to 5ker who runs a marathon in 8 hours with degrading biomechanics. But these let the NFL cut a check to say they give a crap about player health and are working to solve the concussion problem.

I don't want to sound overly critical of the helmets in my argument above, they could be doing something but what the public and probably players think they are doing vs what they are actually doing is probably completely different. Helmet design can and should keep evolving but the reality is if 2 huge people running a 4.3 40 bash heads against one another there isn't much that can stop their brains from bashing against the inside of their skulls

 

[Northeast Stinger]

This is absolutely their marketing strategy. The independent research (we looked at them in my work for the Army) is pretty conclusive these do nothing for major blows. The sub concussive blows are the debate and it's a question that's nearly impossible to answer. Elite Marathon runners have pretty severe shaking in their heads after running 26 miles at a 4 minute pace for 2 hours let alone ultra marathon runners or even the adventurous couch to 5ker who runs a marathon in 8 hours with degrading biomechanics. But these let the NFL cut a check to say they give a crap about player health and are working to solve the concussion problem.

I don't want to sound overly critical of the helmets in my argument above, they could be doing something but what the public and probably players think they are doing vs what they are actually doing is probably completely different. Helmet design can and should keep evolving but the reality is if 2 huge people running a 4.3 40 bash heads against one another there isn't much that can stop their brains from bashing against the inside of their skulls

This comports with the research I’ve read. And, like you, my wish is not to bash these new helmet designs, it is to suggest that, as of yet, we haven’t seen that they will make a difference. Too early to cheer them as the salvation of the sport.

 

[stinger78]

This comports with the research I’ve read. And, like you, my wish is not to bash these new helmet designs, it is to suggest that, as of yet, we haven’t seen that they will make a difference. Too early to cheer them as the salvation of the sport.

Yes.
However, if a player receives maybe 50 blows of all intensity to the head in a typical game, what percentage is the major blow? Maybe 10%? Probably varies by position with RB/LB likely the highest.
So then, if the cover successfully helps diffuse the energy of low and medium level then it helps for 90% of the collisions.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Yes.
However, if a player receives maybe 50 blows of all intensity to the head in a typical game, what percentage is the major blow? Maybe 10%? Probably varies by position with RB/LB likely the highest.
So then, if the cover successfully helps diffuse the energy of low and medium level then it helps for 90% of the collisions.

Sounds logical but there is no evidence so far to support that. Again, this is not a polemic against this helmet, or an argument to do nothing, just a caution that we haven’t solved the problem yet.

 

[takethepoints]

Here's an image of Mike Curtis playing somebody while he was at Duke:

A Tribute to Two RM Legends: Mike Curtis and Roy Lester

As the world is currently going through some unfamiliar times, the RM community has recently lost two of its greatest legends in the school’s history. Mike Curtis On April 20th, RM Alum and NFL Football Legend Mike Curtis passed away at the age of 77 on April 20th in St.Petersburg, Florida...

thermtide.com

As can be seen – after you click on the picture to get the larger version – the helmet had a substantial piece of outside padding. The inside cushioning followed suit.

Btw, the story says Curtis had passed on. He was a great player both at Duke and in the NFL. I wish Tech had an LB like him now.

 

[GTJason]

Yes.
However, if a player receives maybe 50 blows of all intensity to the head in a typical game, what percentage is the major blow? Maybe 10%? Probably varies by position with RB/LB likely the highest.
So then, if the cover successfully helps diffuse the energy of low and medium level then it helps for 90% of the collisions.

Let me preface my comments below by saying I'm not trying to be combative and they are purely with the intent of fostering healthy scientific discussion. Far too often counter points on message boards come off the wrong way.

So logically lessening impact should be a good thing, but I think most people would agree highly level football players can take hits that would put us mere mortals to sleep without getting a concussion (at least according to concussion protocols and evaluations - not getting into the accuracy of those). So the question is, are the minor hits helping brace the head for the big hits?

It's like the question, is running bad for your knees? The answer for this one is it depends and I'd suspect the same is true for head trauma. If we are going to subject people to major concussive events then training the body to manage those events might be important. Until we can do a Soviet era clinical trial on the matter (which is unethical and should never happen) we can only go off anecdotal evidence and rewrite the science when more is known. All of that to say the helmets may or may not be doing anything for player safety, but at the very least wearing them will lead to more information on the matter.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Let me preface my comments below by saying I'm not trying to be combative and they are purely with the intent of fostering healthy scientific discussion. Far too often counter points on message boards come off the wrong way.

So logically lessening impact should be a good thing, but I think most people would agree highly level football players can take hits that would put us mere mortals to sleep without getting a concussion (at least according to concussion protocols and evaluations - not getting into the accuracy of those). So the question is, are the minor hits helping brace the head for the big hits?

It's like the question, is running bad for your knees? The answer for this one is it depends and I'd suspect the same is true for head trauma. If we are going to subject people to major concussive events then training the body to manage those events might be important. Until we can do a Soviet era clinical trial on the matter (which is unethical and should never happen) we can only go off anecdotal evidence and rewrite the science when more is known. All of that to say the helmets may or may not be doing anything for player safety, but at the very least wearing them will lead to more information on the matter.

Well said.

Another variable in the data, which is anecdotal but hasn’t been measured, is whether helmets in general, and ones of improved design in particular, unconsciously encourage players to take more risks with their heads. I’m not suggesting that players shouldn’t wear helmets but I am suggesting that helmets do give a false sense of security.

By comparison, it also is only anecdotal evidence that suggests that rugby players and soccer players are better off without wearing helmets.

And while we’re on the subject, it still makes my knees weak to see that nobody wears knee pads anymore. The idea of an exposed knee receiving blunt force trauma makes my skin crawl. But, clearly, at some point is was decided that players having more freedom of movement might not be any more dangerous than having them trussed up with pads everywhere, slowing them down and making them more of a target. Anyone remember hip pads which also covered the kidneys?

 

[stinger78]

Let me preface my comments below by saying I'm not trying to be combative and they are purely with the intent of fostering healthy scientific discussion. Far too often counter points on message boards come off the wrong way.

So logically lessening impact should be a good thing, but I think most people would agree highly level football players can take hits that would put us mere mortals to sleep without getting a concussion (at least according to concussion protocols and evaluations - not getting into the accuracy of those). So the question is, are the minor hits helping brace the head for the big hits?

It's like the question, is running bad for your knees? The answer for this one is it depends and I'd suspect the same is true for head trauma. If we are going to subject people to major concussive events then training the body to manage those events might be important. Until we can do a Soviet era clinical trial on the matter (which is unethical and should never happen) we can only go off anecdotal evidence and rewrite the science when more is known. All of that to say the helmets may or may not be doing anything for player safety, but at the very least wearing them will lead to more information on the matter.

Not combative. Entirely reasonable. Let me take it a step further:
Suppose that head trauma is advanced by cumulative trauma, small or large. Is it a good start then to lessen minor to moderate trauma that occurs far more often?

 

[Poodletop]

12 years of rugby - 0 concussions
6 years of football - 4 concussions
1 year of hockey - 1 concussions

I know, just anecdotal.

 

[GTJason]

Not combative. Entirely reasonable. Let me take it a step further:
Suppose that head trauma is advanced by cumulative trauma, small or large. Is it a good start then to lessen minor to moderate trauma that occurs far more often?

I'm with you, my acceptable level of head trauma is 0 especially in developing brains. If we knew some moderate hits to the head were good, it'd be part of practice. I had a bad concussion in highschool soccer and I blame that for me staying a GT fan for so long - and my 2.3 gpa at GT (kidding, or maybe it's true who knows). If you're curious I kept playing through it. If I have sons they will not be playing football, my daughters will not play hockey ( women's hockey is the worst for concussions, who knew)

 

[jgtengineer]

12 years of rugby - 0 concussions
6 years of football - 4 concussions
1 year of hockey - 1 concussions

I know, just anecdotal.

Only one of those is a collision sport the other two are contact.

 

[DeepSnap]

Interesting to read y'all's comments...... here are a few personal notes....

As one who played football in grades 2-12 plus 4 years at NATS, I only had one football related concussion - in 1969 vs Tennessee in Knoxville on that damned Brillo pad over asphalt called TartanTurf. After one punt, I found myself on the sideline with one of our student trainers holding my elbow & saying "Let;s go to the sideline." Me: "We're on the sideline." "Trainer sez, "Yes, the Tennessee sideline. Let's go to ours." Never missed a punt.... don't remember much in the game after that, but the Monday film session showed I snapped every punt that game.

Only other one was in an auto wreck when I was riding with my older sister & hit my head on the vent pane frame. The car was a 1949 Plymouth sedan, so long before seat belts.

I have an old GT teammate/roommate/classmate who wore the soft interior foam style helmet made by MacGregor IIRC. He started for 3 years as an OL & today has cognitive issues - we can't leave him alone or he physically wanders off - and after several brain scans admits to having some questionable mappings/readings. He says he believes it's the result of being a "head-blocker" and the repeated blows received in his five years at GT.

We have several others, mostly RBs and even a PK (was a two way All-State RB & LB in HS) who have been diagnosed with early onset dementia or Alzheimer's. One now-deceased DB talked like a 1950s era "punch-drunk" boxer.

The former RB who was a NY Jets wedgebuster for a couple of seasons has already shown behavioral signs of CTE. Played a round of golf with him at a FB Letterwinners Spring Outing pre-COVID and he told the same stories in what seemed like a 15 minute loop, spread over 18 holes. Afterwards he forgot he hadn't driven his car to the event as we circled the parking lot to drop off his clubs.

We've had a few ALS victims as well. Once hardly ever heard of, this is showing up more & more.

As for the exterior padded helmets, Duke, Ohio State, Cornell & maybe Dartmouth were the last ones to wear these in the late '60s/early '70s, IIRC. The concern at the time was the exterior padding would somehow not slip on contact & would cause neck injuries. The Guardian covers claim to not do this.

I'd like the GTAA to do some baseline testing upon a player's arrival into the program just to have the data for 40-50 years down the road, but I'm not so sure the lawyers would allow it as it might lead to unforeseen, expensive liabilities.

On a current note, I have a great nephew who only played one year of middle school football, then after a concussion that wasn't diagnosed until about a week afterwards, decided to concentrate on baseball - he was a first round MLB draft pick in the June 2024 draft. My grandson attends one of the "big two" HS programs in Austin (TX) & played Freshmen FB this year as a TE & PK. I really wish he's stay with his other two loves - baseball & soccer.

THWg!

 

[stinger78]

Interesting to read y'all's comments...... here are a few personal notes....

As one who played football in grades 2-12 plus 4 years at NATS, I only had one football related concussion - in 1969 vs Tennessee in Knoxville on that damned Brillo pad over asphalt called TartanTurf. After one punt, I found myself on the sideline with one of our student trainers holding my elbow & saying "Let;s go to the sideline." Me: "We're on the sideline." "Trainer sez, "Yes, the Tennessee sideline. Let's go to ours." Never missed a punt.... don't remember much in the game after that, but the Monday film session showed I snapped every punt that game.

Only other one was in an auto wreck when I was riding with my older sister & hit my head on the vent pane frame. The car was a 1949 Plymouth sedan, so long before seat belts.

I have an old GT teammate/roommate/classmate who wore the soft interior foam style helmet made by MacGregor IIRC. He started for 3 years as an OL & today has cognitive issues - we can't leave him alone or he physically wanders off - and after several brain scans admits to having some questionable mappings/readings. He says he believes it's the result of being a "head-blocker" and the repeated blows received in his five years at GT.

We have several others, mostly RBs and even a PK (was a two way All-State RB & LB in HS) who have been diagnosed with early onset dementia or Alzheimer's. One now-deceased DB talked like a 1950s era "punch-drunk" boxer.

The former RB who was a NY Jets wedgebuster for a couple of seasons has already shown behavioral signs of CTE. Played a round of golf with him at a FB Letterwinners Spring Outing pre-COVID and he told the same stories in what seemed like a 15 minute loop, spread over 18 holes. Afterwards he forgot he hadn't driven his car to the event as we circled the parking lot to drop off his clubs.

We've had a few ALS victims as well. Once hardly ever heard of, this is showing up more & more.

As for the exterior padded helmets, Duke, Ohio State, Cornell & maybe Dartmouth were the last ones to wear these in the late '60s/early '70s, IIRC. The concern at the time was the exterior padding would somehow not slip on contact & would cause neck injuries. The Guardian covers claim to not do this.

I'd like the GTAA to do some baseline testing upon a player's arrival into the program just to have the data for 40-50 years down the road, but I'm not so sure the lawyers would allow it as it might lead to unforeseen, expensive liabilities.

On a current note, I have a great nephew who only played one year of middle school football, then after a concussion that wasn't diagnosed until about a week afterwards, decided to concentrate on baseball - he was a first round MLB draft pick in the June 2024 draft. My grandson attends one of the "big two" HS programs in Austin (TX) & played Freshmen FB this year as a TE & PK. I really wish he's stay with his other two loves - baseball & soccer.

THWg!

I’m thinking of all those head butts on the sled and all those form tackling drills we did… over and over. Death by 1000 bumps.

 

[MtnWasp]

12 years of rugby - 0 concussions
6 years of football - 4 concussions
1 year of hockey - 1 concussions

I know, just anecdotal.

This is interesting. It reinforces the notion the counter-intuitive notion that more head protection results in more head injuries.

I think this very well may be true for psychological reasons. Heavy head gear leaves the wearer the false impression of safety.

Psychologically, people tend to want to protect their face. So, it actually might be the face cages that makes players want to "lead with their heads."

If that is true, then maybe the best protection was the old leather helmets with no face gear. Then like rugby players, players don't lead with their heads.

But there may be no good solution to this problem and Football will need to morph into a non-collision sport, like Flag Football.

 

[Root4GT]

This is interesting. It reinforces the notion the counter-intuitive notion that more head protection results in more head injuries.

I think this very well may be true for psychological reasons. Heavy head gear leaves the wearer the false impression of safety.

Psychologically, people tend to want to protect their face. So, it actually might be the face cages that makes players want to "lead with their heads."

If that is true, then maybe the best protection was the old leather helmets with no face gear. Then like rugby players, players don't lead with their heads.

But there may be no good solution to this problem and Football will need to morph into a non-collision sport, like Flag Football.

That is likely the only solution. The money involved may prevent that from happening.

Earlier comment about getting baselines. One of our friends son was a WB at Gonzaga HS in DC, a few years before Caleb Williams showed up.

Gonzaga did a baseline CT brain scan for all football players before their first season and after their last season there. Of course tuition is north of $50k per year for a day school.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Only one of those is a collision sport the other two are contact.

?

 

[jgtengineer]

?

Football is a collision sport meaning that on any given play there are 10 or so collisions to try to avoid or minimalize 1 collision to score.
Rugby is a contact sport, contact happens but is limited to a few events that happen more rarely. Blocking for instance is illegal with the closest thing being fighting for a ruck.
Hockey is the same. Collissions happen but its not truly by design on most of the way the game is played.

 

[takethepoints]

Football is a collision sport meaning that on any given play there are 10 or so collisions to try to avoid or minimalize 1 collision to score.
Rugby is a contact sport, contact happens but is limited to a few events that happen more rarely. Blocking for instance is illegal with the closest thing being fighting for a ruck.
Hockey is the same. Collissions happen but its not truly by design on most of the way the game is played.

Unless you happen to be Gordie Howe, Alex Delvecchio, or Bobby Clarke. It's the old saw:

A Gordie Howe Hat Trick:
A goal
An assist and
A fight

 

[jgtengineer]

Unless you happen to be Gordie Howe, Alex Delvecchio, or Bobby Clarke. It's the old saw:

A Gordie Howe Hat Trick:
A goal
An assist and
A fight

That's true but it's more about the Intent of the game. Football played right has mass collisions. The other two limited.