Upcharge?

LongforDodd

Helluva Engineer
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[QUOTE="UgaBlows, post: 486891, member: 747"... Overall one of the worst broadcasts i’ve suffered through in a while...[/QUOTE]
And their replay machine didn't work until the second half, I don't think.
 

first&ten

Ramblin' Wreck
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719
I got pretty tired of the announcers continually saying that Miami was beating themselves with self inflicted wounds etc, how about a little credit to the guys who inflicted those wounds? We punched them in the mouth and TOOK that game, they sure as hell didn’t just give it away. I almost lost my mind during the punt return fumble when they wouldn’t stop talking to Calvin Johnson and just ignored this huge play, no replay of it and no talk about what was going on. Overall one of the worst broadcasts i’ve suffered through in a while, give me raycom over that biased garbage please lol.
I thought just the opposite. The sideline interviewer just stopped talking to Calvin while the replay was going on but no one was making comment. The replay showed it was Tech ball. At that point I thought Calvin had left, but here goes the interview again. A very disjointed interview with a player that was placed in the HOF. I'm surprised that Calvin didn't walk off, but showed what a classy Tech man he is!
 

alagold

Helluva Engineer
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Huntsville,Al
I think I saw on the key bback give that TM DELAYED with a quick stepback (which it look like a option going outside) and THEN gave it to bback.the DT might have taken himself out of play.
 

ibeattetris

Helluva Engineer
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2,460
I think I saw on the key bback give that TM DELAYED with a quick stepback (which it look like a option going outside) and THEN gave it to bback.the DT might have taken himself out of play.
The qb steps back on the midline as the BBack is meant to run almost literally at the center's backside.
As mentioned earlier, the B-back dives over the center. The QB hops back and lands over the backside A-gap. This is so he can clear the “midline” path of the B-back.
Source of quote: http://nflbreakdowns.com/2015/09/the-flexbone-option-offense-midline/
 

dressedcheeseside

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TM missed almost all the reads where Miami upcharged (or whatever anyone wants to call it). It why we threw the pass to Brad Stewart. TM missed the read during an upcharge on the play before it. Thank goodness passing against Miami worked for us. It saved us from a few stalled drives from missed reads.

TM DID make the read correctly when we absolutely needed it. 3rd and long, he read it correctly with an upcharge and Jerry got us a first down by quite a bit. Phwew, what a nail-biter of a game for me.
The second play you described was my favorite play the whole game. I truly believe TM decided to give even before he made the read. In real time it was such a bang bang play I don’t think he had time to make a read. I think he gambled and it paid off. Great instincts and great quarterbacking.
 

Longestday

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I count 10 triples and TQM read 7 of them right. What made Miami so hard to read was they put themselves on the inside shoulder of the OT. That angle leaves little "tell" on who the DE is taking and a very fast read. The stutter step of the DT was a "tell" he was going for the QB versus the smooth straight to the BBack. There is a slight shoulder turn difference that is hard to read in the movement.

He made 2 out of 2 midline reads correctly.

I was a little hard on TQM in the moment of the game, but after rewatching he did pretty good.
 

IEEEWreck

Ramblin' Wreck
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587
I count 10 triples and TQM read 7 of them right. What made Miami so hard to read was they put themselves on the inside shoulder of the OT. That angle leaves little "tell" on who the DE is taking and a very fast read. The stutter step of the DT was a "tell" he was going for the QB versus the smooth straight to the BBack. There is a slight shoulder turn difference that is hard to read in the movement.

He made 2 out of 2 midline reads correctly.

I was a little hard on TQM in the moment of the game, but after rewatching he did pretty good.

I'll play the straight man here:

It seems like the obvious adjustment is to shift to midline because moving the read to the first down lineman off the A gap puts that OT's movement on a vector away from the action? So, then, what happened when we ran midline, and why only 2 examples for us to examine?
 

Longestday

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This is the last triple and the "Seal the Deal play"...I think it was not a guess but a good read. (Keep in mind I slowed these down... this happens really fast)


This is the last triple play before the "Seal the Deal"... maybe it was a guess????

 

ibeattetris

Helluva Engineer
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2,460
I'll play the straight man here:

It seems like the obvious adjustment is to shift to midline because moving the read to the first down lineman off the A gap puts that OT's movement on a vector away from the action? So, then, what happened when we ran midline, and why only 2 examples for us to examine?
You can't run midline against every alignment, and a lot of defenses will line up specifically to make sure you can't. I linked this earlier, but if you want more information, you should read: http://nflbreakdowns.com/2015/09/the-flexbone-option-offense-midline/ . It explains what makes the midline good and what you look for on the dl before you run it.
 

Eastman

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Columbia, SC
TM missed almost all the reads where Miami upcharged (or whatever anyone wants to call it). It why we threw the pass to Brad Stewart. TM missed the read during an upcharge on the play before it. Thank goodness passing against Miami worked for us. It saved us from a few stalled drives from missed reads.

TM DID make the read correctly when we absolutely needed it. 3rd and long, he read it correctly with an upcharge and Jerry got us a first down by quite a bit. Phwew, what a nail-biter of a game for me.
I thought that it was pretty gutsy to run Jerry up the middle owith that far to go. It has seemed to me that TM has a tendency to default to keeping the ball on big third downs and was glad that didn’t happen.
 

stpetewreck

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
48
Normal DE takes QB (not an upcharge)

Pull and Pitch (Good read)

Upcharge give (Bad read)

Upcharge give (Good Read)

delete in an hour... J/K

The first one you posted, Normal DE takes QB (not an upcharge), has the potential to be a huge play if LG reads the twist.
 

steebu

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
553
It's always easier to see in slow-mo (thanks for that @Longestday). In your last post, the first vid is midline and the second is triple with twirl motion (the motioning A-Back "twirls" and goes back the way he came).

OL-wise both look pretty similar: the backside guys scoop and the play side climbs to the second level, avoiding the DE and OLB.

The first vid is midline because:

1. the path of the motioning A-Back post-snap: he plants and cuts toward the LOS to get a block. If it were triple he'd continue his tail motion to be the pitch man.
2. More subtly, TQM's arms are out at a 90' angle during the mesh. Imagine for sec that when he gets the snap he's facing 12 o'clock. He rotates to face 3 o'clock and his arms are pointing straight out at 3 o'clock. In the second vid his arms are more towards 4 o'clock. It's super-subtle and you'd never see it at regular speed (unless you're CPJ) and the arm extension to 4 o'clock on the triple is for a longer ride-and-decide during the mesh whereas midline has to be super-quick.
3. Finally, the footwork is different. For midline the first step by his left foot is to get depth and his right foot comes back to keep from tripping the B-Back. On the triple he opens up to the play side with his right foot then brings his left foot parallel so they are both facing 3 o'clock. Well, he's supposed to, anyway, because you don't want to trip the B with your feet ... if you notice, his left foot sticks out further than his right, and that's the kind of stuff that would drive Johnson crazy, particularly if Mason or Howard tripped over it.

Fantastic play call by Johnson on 3rd and 5 and a fantastic read by TQM.
 

AE 87

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12,967
It's always easier to see in slow-mo (thanks for that @Longestday). In your last post, the first vid is midline and the second is triple with twirl motion (the motioning A-Back "twirls" and goes back the way he came).

OL-wise both look pretty similar: the backside guys scoop and the play side climbs to the second level, avoiding the DE and OLB.

The first vid is midline because:

1. the path of the motioning A-Back post-snap: he plants and cuts toward the LOS to get a block. If it were triple he'd continue his tail motion to be the pitch man.
2. More subtly, TQM's arms are out at a 90' angle during the mesh. Imagine for sec that when he gets the snap he's facing 12 o'clock. He rotates to face 3 o'clock and his arms are pointing straight out at 3 o'clock. In the second vid his arms are more towards 4 o'clock. It's super-subtle and you'd never see it at regular speed (unless you're CPJ) and the arm extension to 4 o'clock on the triple is for a longer ride-and-decide during the mesh whereas midline has to be super-quick.
3. Finally, the footwork is different. For midline the first step by his left foot is to get depth and his right foot comes back to keep from tripping the B-Back. On the triple he opens up to the play side with his right foot then brings his left foot parallel so they are both facing 3 o'clock. Well, he's supposed to, anyway, because you don't want to trip the B with your feet ... if you notice, his left foot sticks out further than his right, and that's the kind of stuff that would drive Johnson crazy, particularly if Mason or Howard tripped over it.

Fantastic play call by Johnson on 3rd and 5 and a fantastic read by TQM.

And the BBack trajectory is different, right?
 

IEEEWreck

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
587
You can't run midline against every alignment, and a lot of defenses will line up specifically to make sure you can't. I linked this earlier, but if you want more information, you should read: http://nflbreakdowns.com/2015/09/the-flexbone-option-offense-midline/ . It explains what makes the midline good and what you look for on the dl before you run it.

Pretty good resource, if a little jargony for total newcomers. This is basically what I meant by "play the straight man" - I want to draw out a discussion of what was going on defensively and our playbook and our players strengths vs Miami's strengths.

Football is both filled with jargon and history. As an example, my great uncle played for Bear Bryant and was given a scholarship because he could, in our terms, 'ride the mesh' extraordinarily well in the inside veer. There's a wall of history between me and him, but I would argue that history vindicates us, because he left the team when given the choice between being a player and being a student. Whether Dodd or CPJ, no Yellow Jacket makes that choice. But you can't understand the veer vs midline if you don't know 50+ years of football, and that leads to a lot of poor quality "but teh 'krootin!" analysis of our team.

I'm just a EE, and I understand the Flexbone as a set of functions of mass, position, and time. What makes CPJ's midline "power" (two a backs leading the QB through the B gap, rather like the old Power I, as I understand it) is fundamentally foreign to me until I pick up a bunch of history. Defensive techniques seems like the world's worst system for describing vectors to me, and I survived EMAG.

In this game, I'd hazard that Miami is an interesting case because the "B gap" is in fact rarely meaningful because the Miami middle linebacker is A. Moving at the snap to fill the gap B. Really, really fast at doing it and C. Probably a large enough mass with enough acceleration to defeat our QB.

That's interesting to my mind! But even better, momentum is a thing! The very thing that negates the midline, or even the power veer, because good luck shifting that MLB momentum with our a backs or reading an inside veer pitch fast enough against that D, also means the Miami D has to fight it's own motion against our pass plays and something going on with delayed development QB stuff I'm not sure about because my TV stream was like 5 plays behind the GT calls and I gave up on the visual pretty early on.

Anyhow, I'd actually like to know what was going on with the overcommitted Miami front, because I'm not quite good enough to say. I'd also like the discussion to be accessible to folks that haven't tried to dive in to X's and O's, because I think it's the only way to raise the level of discussion beyond "33 1/3rd star 'kroots only like touch football."
 
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