Traditional passing vs option pitches/tosses

[RamblinWreck92]

Um.... There is a 3 step roll drop designed for use on short passes that we use. Jt used it alot to through the slant and 5 yard smoke. Its a staple of undercenter run and shoot.

um, it's still more efficient to run a 2-minute offense out of the shotgun. We are terrible at hurry-up offense.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

If we are going to debate passing from under center then we need to debate running on short yardage situations out of the shotgun.

IMO, it's dumb to do that. Starting a back some 7 yards behind the LOS when you only need 1-2 yards total is over-complicating things. Esp. if you're gonna let your QB run it.

while we aren't great at short passing, hurry-up stuff, we definitely excel in short-yardage situations IMO. CPJ doesn't complicate things in these situatons. We damn well better be good at it since running the ball is what we specialize in.

but this is thread-jacking, since Cheese's topic is about passing.

 

[IronJacket7]

not entirely accurate. A passing play will see the D secondary (at least a few of 'em) dropping back to either cover a long route, man a zone area, etc. A running play will have most of those guys instead attacking the LOS and ball carrier. Dime packages are often played against teams in short-passing situations but never on a team that's run-first, run-second, run-third.

Another disadvantage: No team in history has had a 2-minute option package, simply because short passes are better at getting the ball OB and stopping the clock. To not have such a package in 2018 is dismally short-sighted. QB Keepers and rocket tosses aren't a true hurry-up offense.

Is this a response to me or MWBATL?

 

[ibeattetris]

From what I have seen so far, Navy and Air Force incorporate some shotgun formations this year (probably previously too). Army I just haven’t watched. Limited practice time is the only reason I could understand for not adding them. I also am not sure if the plays are capabale of being run as is (blocking and routes) once the qb is no longer doing the three step roll out.

 

[GTRX7]

We are terrible at hurry-up offense.

How do we compare statistically to other teams in 2 minute situations?

(Except other teams going against us, which convert 100% of the time. Lol.)

 

[takethepoints]

The main thing missing here is that the sine qua non of our O's passing is a sound running game. The reason we do so many long passes - when we do - is because the D has been drawn in by the need to stop the run. That's also why taking a 5 count to get the pass off or starting under center isn't always that big a deal; the other side is staying in place to stop the run and almost all our passes are play action.

This does not mean that I don't think a slightly better passing game wouldn't help. I'm sure that Coach would agree since over the last few years Tech has brought in a bevy of QBs who are true dual purpose backs. One is starting right now (TM's senior year = 1376 passing, 18 tds, 1436 running, 12 tds), but it is obvious that he can help us more with his feet then his arm. Next year's QB - whoever that might be - will be bigger and have a better arm. But we'll just have to wait on that.

 

[Dustman]

IMO, it's dumb to do that. Starting a back some 7 yards behind the LOS when you only need 1-2 yards total is over-complicating things. Esp. if you're gonna let your QB run it.

while we aren't great at short passing, hurry-up stuff, we definitely excel in short-yardage situations IMO. CPJ doesn't complicate things in these situatons. We damn well better be good at it since running the ball is what we specialize in.

but this is thread-jacking, since Cheese's topic is about passing.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. At the end of the half against Louisville, we went 62 yards in 2:17 on 9 plays. We threw and completed one pass. We called one timeout. We never spiked the ball. We ran some tosses to the sideline, and when we ran inside we picked up first downs to stop the clock. Not much different than a short passing offense IMO.

 

[g0lftime]

Louisville's run defense was awful. I would not use them to support our 2 minute offense. Without rewatching the game they may have gone more prevent and we feasted on it. PJ is good at taking what the D will give him.

 

[Dustman]

Louisville's run defense was awful. I would not use them to support our 2 minute offense. Without rewatching the game they may have gone more prevent and we feasted on it. PJ is good at taking what the D will give him.

I'm trying to imagine what a prevent D would look like against us.

 

[MidtownJacket]

I think people who haven't played the sport (myself included) think of these things as they would in madden where the scheme should always work because the players will execute it. We sometimes forget the players have tendencies in real life, make mistakes, go the wrong way and sometimes miscommunication on things happens and we run two or three separate plays all at once.

 

[Techster]

I think people who haven't played the sport (myself included) think of these things as they would in madden where the scheme should always work because the players will execute it. We sometimes forget the players have tendencies in real life, make mistakes, go the wrong way and sometimes miscommunication on things happens and we run two or three separate plays all at once.

I played football in HS, and played football on Madden.

Madden was MUCH MUCH MUCH easier than football in real life, and I wasn't coordinating 11 guys at the same time.

 

[Dustman]

Louisville's run defense was awful. I would not use them to support our 2 minute offense. Without rewatching the game they may have gone more prevent and we feasted on it. PJ is good at taking what the D will give him.

The score was 24-14 at the time. Probably the only time in the entire game that Louisville had any hint of momentum. I'm going to respectfully disagree with the notion that our success hinges on the ineptitude of the opponent.

On the first possession of the second half, we held the ball for 7 minutes. We can and do run our offense in hurry up mode.

 

[jgtengineer]

Ok i will try to explain this. Gun is not always faster than under center passing and has its own problems when running the "quick game". The west coast offense, an offense predicated on quick short passing concepts and excelling in the 2 minute was originally ran and still best ran from under center. The QB being closer to the line makes the throws shorter and quicker. If you line up 7 yards off the ball and snap it then take a 2 yard drop which is common the Throwing Distance for a 5 yard slant becomes a much longer throw than that same throw from under center. The angle is also different and you run some major risks of having the ball batted or a line backer reacting under neath it. The quick out becomes a flatter trajectory through and is a shorter throw which gets it to the receiver quicker. The key to running this style of quick game is having a tall QB though. Big bodied QB's are rare, especially those with arm strength capable of doing this type of passing attack. Because the west coast offense was often ran from the I formation or singleback formations there was always the threat of run or draw in a way that could catch a defense napping on the run. Because the quick passing game was predicated on getting the ball out in under 2 to 3 seconds lineman would often fire out into a defender to keep their hands down instead of fully pass setting. Again not everyone could have a QB that could run this offense so a few other systems took principles of this offense and found ways to implement them.

The run and shoot short game is basically this. When you run the run and shoot from under center it is designed to mimic run and throw quick option routs to the slot receiver as its base through. The half rolls quick 3 step drops and footwork are designed to allow smaller, more mobile QBs to find throwing lanes between the defense and make up for a deficiency in arm strength by throwing to a receiver that is running uncovered. Hawaii has been doing this from the gun this year but in doing so from the gun has increased the time to throw over a traditional run and shoot due to the travel time of the snap to the QB and the loss of precision on the routes ran by their slots. Our quick passing game is based off the run and shoot, and we have used it in the past. Unfortunately we are limited in what we can run in this scheme by the height of our QB's recently. Both JT and TQM are a bit to short for the straight 2 step fire from under center and in TQM's case his arm really isn't strong enough to hit a 5 yard out to the field side from the gun ( a 40 yard throw as the ball flies).

Other teams looked a the west coast offense and said we can't recruit the type of lineman necessary to run the 5 and 7 yard drops from that offense. Moving the QB back into the gun allowed them to make up for weak OL play and give the QB more time to hit routes. The trade off was the running back was not longer a moving threat, and the line had to rely on more zone blocking, runs take longer to execute which gives defenses more time to diagnose and it is easier to tell if its a pass. Add in the longer throws and the fact that smaller QBs will have to move to find throwing lanes anyway as well as a more upright blocking style. Again the quick game isn't really any faster than a quick 2 or 3 step and fire you just have longer throws at different angles. The extreme of this offense comes in the Air Raid variety which takes elements of the west coast offense ( short passing game, fixed routes and complex route concepts on plays) and does so pretty exclusively by adding in screens and behind the line throws to get receivers in space, because running screens to receivers from under center can lead to laterals and potential fumbles you run from the gun to force everything into being a forward pass. In an air raid these quick screens are fundamental to the 2 minute drill as they don't get receivers down field and you can move 5 yards at a time getting on the ball very quickly.

I too wish we still had the pistol flexbone sets in our offense. But I understand why we don't have them. fundamentally they aren't really quicker than a 3 step roll and the run plays don't hit as fast from them which means you almost always want to be undercenter.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

How do we compare statistically to other teams in 2 minute situations?

(Except other teams going against us, which convert 100% of the time. Lol.)

I have absolutely no idea nor where to find such a stat. I just know that we're bad at it. We flopped against USF, last year UVA and almost never score at the end of the first half. A VPI game about 7 years ago as our season opener, where we drove the length of the field to tie it in regulation (losing in OT) is literally the last time I can recall us successfully scoring late in a game that mattered.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Is this a response to me or MWBATL?

A response to Cheese's OP. Sorry for the confusion. You & I are in agreement reassing out of the gun in obvious passing situations.

 

[jgtengineer]

I have absolutely no idea nor where to find such a stat. I just know that we're bad at it. We flopped against USF, last year UVA and almost never score at the end of the first half. A VPI game about 7 years ago as our season opener, where we drove the length of the field to tie it in regulation (losing in OT) is literally the last time I can recall us successfully scoring late in a game that mattered.

Um uga 2016.... 4 plays from our own 5 all passes to bring us within 6.

Georgia southern 2014 JT drives us down the field in no time to score with 30 seconds left.

just a few. Hell FSU 2014 to pull us within 2 and give us a chance.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Um uga 2016.... 4 plays from our own 5 all passes to bring us within 6.

Georgia southern 2014 JT drives us down the field in no time to score with 30 seconds left.

just a few. Hell FSU 2014 to pull us within 2 and give us a chance.

the UGA 2016 drive you mentioned started with 9 minutes left and we were not hurrying it up though we did have to pass to win.
A better one would be the one to win it that started at midfield with 3 mins left in that same game after that Jacob Eason Christ INT.

The 2014 ACC CG vs FSU drive you cite is the best example.

The Southern 2014 drive started at 8:49 mark and was mostly a series of run plays. Not at-all a hurry-up offense that we're talking about though it was a pass that won that near-disaster.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/playbyplay?gameId=400547773

So 4 years since we've successfully run a hurry-up.

 

[jgtengineer]

It may have been 9 minutes left but it was definitely hurry up. We wanted to give ourselves plenty of time.

 

[UgaBlows]

Not gonna happen with the D so close to the LOS. I like our route tree just fine, but what we need are faster wideouts who are better route runners and a qb who can see who's open and deliver the ball on target/time. It would also help to have an OL better at pass blocking.

Nobody could stop us if we had those things

 

[RamblinWreck92]

It may have been 9 minutes left but it was definitely hurry up. We wanted to give ourselves plenty of time.

the important thing is that it worked. to hell with the mutts!!