Traditional passing vs option pitches/tosses

[dressedcheeseside]

If you think about it, our pitch and toss game is more or less the same as any other offense's short passing game. It gets the ball out to a playmaker in space near the LOS and let's him make a play. How many deep passes do other offenses average a game? Not many and I'd bet their completion % on deep balls is no better than ours.

So if you count all our pitches and rocket tosses as passes combined with our downfield passes, how far are we off from most other team's passing numbers?

The biggest downside I can see is our pitches and tosses are fumbles if dropped. Short passes a yard downfield are not.

 

[ATL1]

Negative yard plays as well.

Would rather have a broader short and intermediate passing game along with the tosses and pitches.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I will say a good passer brings our O to another level, but only if he is equally good in the run/decision making part of the game. All things considered, I'd rather have a lesser passer who was a wizard with the read option/run game over a good passer who was so so in the other.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Negative yard plays as well.

Would rather have a broader short and intermediate passing game along with the tosses and pitches.

Not gonna happen with the D so close to the LOS. I like our route tree just fine, but what we need are faster wideouts who are better route runners and a qb who can see who's open and deliver the ball on target/time. It would also help to have an OL better at pass blocking.

 

[IronJacket7]

If you think about it, our pitch and toss game is more or less the same as any other offense's short passing game. It gets the ball out to a playmaker in space near the LOS and let's him make a play. How many deep passes do other offenses average a game? Not many and I'd bet their completion % on deep balls is no better than ours.

So if you count all our pitches and rocket tosses as passes combined with our downfield passes, how far are we off from most other team's passing numbers?

The biggest downside I can see is our pitches and tosses are fumbles if dropped. Short passes a yard downfield are not.

I actually don't want to see us throw a lot of "Deep Passes" as they are often broken up or incomplete unless the receiver is wide open or wins the jump ball. I think the issue "if" there is one in our passing game is having a short to medium "Vertical" threat as opposed to the "Horizontal" passes/pitches you are suggesting.

I love our offense personally.

If I changed anything about it I would say add a true TE or two on scholarship. Use them in the blocking and short vertical passing routes. I know Army does some of this especially using the TE in the run game.

I also wouldn't mind seeing CPJ slightly mix in the pistol formations he used back in 2012 just to see some differing looks and keep the defenders in the box honest.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

We also have to remember there is a limit to practice time and putting in too much stuff makes you good at nothing.

 

[IronJacket7]

We also have to remember there is a limit to practice time and putting in too much stuff makes you good at nothing.

That's why you don't put in too much. You mix in a little.

 

[MWBATL]

I will comment that I have noticed that in all of college football, QB's only have a count of three (maybe) to get their passes off. In other words, no one pass blocks really well. Most teams counter this with a short passing game so their QB can throw the ball quickly. Since our routes are all long, it stresses our pass blocking even more. But, in truth, I think our QB's need to release MUCH more quickly on their passes. Holding it for a 5 count waiting for a route to open up just doesn't work well. Gotta take a chance and throw it sooner as opposed to taking a sack.

 

[IronJacket7]

I will comment that I have noticed that in all of college football, QB's only have a count of three (maybe) to get their passes off. In other words, no one pass blocks really well. Most teams counter this with a short passing game so their QB can throw the ball quickly. Since our routes are all long, it stresses our pass blocking even more. But, in truth, I think our QB's need to release MUCH more quickly on their passes. Holding it for a 5 count waiting for a route to open up just doesn't work well. Gotta take a chance and throw it sooner as opposed to taking a sack.

Being under center on obvious passing situations can increase this difficulty as doing a 3 to 5 step drop takes 2 to 3 seconds. Being in a pistol or shotgun on obvious passing situations would alleviate some of this.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

not entirely accurate. A passing play will see the D secondary (at least a few of 'em) dropping back to either cover a long route, man a zone area, etc. A running play will have most of those guys instead attacking the LOS and ball carrier. Dime packages are often played against teams in short-passing situations but never on a team that's run-first, run-second, run-third.

Another disadvantage: No team in history has had a 2-minute option package, simply because short passes are better at getting the ball OB and stopping the clock. To not have such a package in 2018 is dismally short-sighted. QB Keepers and rocket tosses aren't a true hurry-up offense.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Another disadvantage: No team in history has had a 2-minute option package, simply because short passes are better at getting the ball OB and stopping the clock. To not have such a package in 2018 is dismally short-sighted. QB Keepers and rocket tosses aren't a true hurry-up offense.

We have a 2-minute non-option package. We may not be very good at it, but we got it in the playbook and practice it regularly.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

We have a 2-minute non-option package. We may not be very good at it, but we got it in the playbook and practice it regularly.

it's not surprising that we're not very good at it, given how seldom we throw it to begin with. It's a weakness of the entire package. The 2-minute requires well-timed passes and great route running, something that's not going to just happen at the end of halves when it hasn't been attempted but 1-2 times prior to it.

And it's laughably stupid to run such an offense under center. Defeats the whole purpose, which is to get passes out quickly, rather than having to drop back, plant and set feet, and throw. It's puzzling to see passing made so difficult from a guy some think is an offensive genius.

sorry - end rant.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

it's not surprising that we're not very good at it, given how seldom we throw it to begin with. It's a weakness of the entire package. The 2-minute requires well-timed passes and great route running, something that's not going to just happen at the end of halves when it hasn't been attempted but 1-2 times prior to it.

And it's laughably stupid to run such an offense under center. Defeats the whole purpose, which is to get passes out quickly, rather than having to drop back, plant and set feet, and throw. It's puzzling to see passing made so difficult from a guy some think is an offensive genius.

sorry - end rant.

I guess I won't put you on the CPJ fan club list. I'll agree with you about the shotgun in that situation making sense. Sounds like a good question for the call in show.

 

[Techster]

I've been putting together a post in my head about Young CPJ vs CPJ now. By now, many of us know our route concepts are based off of RnS staples. We have subtlely incorporated some spread passing schemes as well over the past few years.

One of the things that stood out to me about Young CPJ was his willingness to scheme the passing game more when he was an up and coming OC. We all have seen his vaunted scheme adjustements on a week to week basis, but it's rare that we see CPJ tailor our passing game to an opponent. For instance, this game against Iowa when CPJ was an OC in 1988:



In the first three passing plays, you quick hitting short and intermediate passing plays. Earlier in the game, you can hear the announcers say the Hawaii coaches talked to them about putting together quicker hitting plays against that vaunted Iowa front 7...and we see it. (BTW, the blocking on that first pass play with the AB picking up an interior rusher as the BB leaks out of the backfield is a thing of beaty).

There's the storied "stack" formation game.



There are things that other offenses that some of us "we need to pass" fans have clamored for, and CPJ at some point in his history as a coach incorporated. It's in his playbook somewhere. There have been QBs in our past, and skill players in the last 10 years that would have been weapons with those plays.

Now this isn't a "CPJ is too hard headed" post. It's more of a "Where has the young gun slinger CPJ gone" thinking out loud post.

 

[Dustman]

We ran the 2 minute option pretty well last weekend. We scored too quickly actually. When we execute, we move the chains. I've watched pass happy offenses struggle to move the chains, or complete a short pass for 2 yards. Or throw sideways for a loss - FSU is really good at that this year. Byerly ran some 2 minute against Puke in 2014 when JT was hurt and almost brought us back. JT ran the 2 minute in Charlotte against FSU the same year. It's like anything else.

 

[jgtengineer]

I will say a good passer brings our O to another level, but only if he is equally good in the run/decision making part of the game. All things considered, I'd rather have a lesser passer who was a wizard with the read option/run game over a good passer who was so so in the other.

Tevin washington says hello.

 

[jgtengineer]

it's not surprising that we're not very good at it, given how seldom we throw it to begin with. It's a weakness of the entire package. The 2-minute requires well-timed passes and great route running, something that's not going to just happen at the end of halves when it hasn't been attempted but 1-2 times prior to it.

And it's laughably stupid to run such an offense under center. Defeats the whole purpose, which is to get passes out quickly, rather than having to drop back, plant and set feet, and throw. It's puzzling to see passing made so difficult from a guy some think is an offensive genius.

sorry - end rant.

Um.... There is a 3 step roll drop designed for use on short passes that we use. Jt used it alot to through the slant and 5 yard smoke. Its a staple of undercenter run and shoot.

 

[Techster]

Tevin washington says hello.

If Tevin had Vad or Nesbitt's physical tools and arm...wow. Tevin, in terms of understanding where to go with the ball in our passing game IMO has been the best QB under CPJ. It's just that a lot of times his passing didn't have enough arm to get there or get there in time.

Also, for the millionth time, if Tevin had just an average defense, we probably would have won 9+ games multiple seasons.

 

[jgtengineer]

If Tevin had Vad or Nesbitt's physical tools and arm...wow. Tevin, in terms of understanding where to go with the ball in our passing game IMO has been the best QB under CPJ. It's just that a lot of times his passing didn't have enough arm to get there or get there in time.

Also, for the millionth time, if Tevin had just an average defense, we probably would have won 9+ games multiple seasons.

If tevin had an average defense 2011 might have been another ACC championship. 2012 could have been one also wihtout groh failign so hard

 

[Dustman]

If we are going to debate passing from under center then we need to debate running on short yardage situations out of the shotgun.