The Late Kick showing GT some love...again.

jgtengineer

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1,397
I liked Paul Johnson. He was an excellent offensive coach, but he was at best an average recruiter with average assistance coaches. Collins can recruit very well. To be a winner, he needs very good assistance coaches and keep team morale high.

At least IMHO, academic standards are more likely to be raised than to be lowered. I think there is a niche for us to be better than we have been, more like a Notre Dame or Stanford.

I think beating Clemson consistently will be tough. Swinney is an excellent recruiter with very few obstacles. He has managed to hire good coaches and maintain team discipline. Our best bet is he goes to Alabama after Sabin retires.

The big difference so far between Collins and Johnson is Collins has been given everything he can be given to succeed. Because Stansbury knows it takes money and AD support. Johnson's tenure started with being hamstrung at the DC position. And then it was a tooth and nail fight for funding for coaches the entire time. We had no recruiting staff when teams were adding a ton in the critical time between 2012-2016 (seriously even duke was dumping funding into recruiting at this time and we were not). When Bohannon left Johnson wanted to bring in someone else to help with the offense couldn't had to settle for Cook. We were fortunate to get 2014 to click like it did. Johnson didn't hire Roof that was a booster hire. But honestly Roof was a good injection at the time (2013 he took that dumpster fire al groh had in 2012 and made it a respectable run defense).

I am glad Collins is getting full buy-in. But i can only imagine how horrible he'd have it if he had to deal with the AD johnson did during that critical time period. The truth is Johnson's failing on the recruiting trail mainly lay in honesty. I mean **** we lost holyfield because the staff didn't lie to him and said that in our system the position he would play wouldn't be a feature back but he'd get touches both receiving and running. He played that up as a told he couldn't be an every down back... Which last i checked no one is in the NFL. Things like that. Hell johnson told vad lee he was going to change the offense up for him.... did so. Then Vad was Vad and wouldnt' even run the smallest amount of the base offense.

Sorry i don't mean to derail here but Hosts like this that act like an Orange Bowl win in the past 6 years hasn't been some kind of ceiling for us don't really know what the hell they are talking about. The narrative should not be "bring GT back" because truthfully there is only one 3 year stretch they can be talking about (o'leary 98-2000) where that applies. It should be, moving GT forward. I get the branding and its definitely targeted at some boosters but still its disingenuous.
 

4shotB

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2,063
I am glad Collins is getting full buy-in. But i can only imagine how horrible he'd have it if he had to deal with the AD johnson did during that critical time period.

CCG (and CBK) have been at places like Bama and UF. I think if you have background like that you don't even consider the job if you sense the organization isn't going to support you fully (not saying you will have equal support as that would be impossible). CPJ was at Navy and GaSO and the like. He didn't come into this thing with the same exposure or understanding (IMO) of what it looks like to have buy-in or perhaps what an arms race he was entering into. Or he may have been misled.
 

BleedGoldNWhite21

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
618
I mean the truth hurts. You and others echo the same sentiments that CPJ recruited different type of athletes for his system so I’m not sure why it’s so painful when announcers echo the same thing the fan base does.

But it’s not the truth. The announcers talked about us like we were a dumpster fire. We’ve gone to the conference championship 3 times in the last 11 years. Not many Power 5 teams can say that.

I’m not saying we can’t do better and I think Collins can definitely take us to another level, but the narrative that’s being sold is that we’ve basically been garbage for decades. Thats not remotely true. There’s a lot of teams in our own conference who’d take our overall record and accomplishments the last decade. That narrative doesn’t bother me because of a particular coach. It bothers me because it’s not true and Georgia Tech football has simply accomplished more in the past hell, 25 years than we are being given credit for. We have not been a “bad” program in a long time.
 

jgtengineer

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1,397
CCG (and CBK) have been at places like Bama and UF. I think if you have background like that you don't even consider the job if you sense the organization isn't going to support you fully (not saying you will have equal support as that would be impossible). CPJ was at Navy and GaSO and the like. He didn't come into this thing with the same exposure or understanding (IMO) of what it looks like to have buy-in or perhaps what an arms race he was entering into. Or he may have been misled.

Can't really count GASO because compared to his peers at that level of football GaSO was alabama with resources. They had near the top salaries for assistants. a recruiting staff. easy majors to hide players in (hell the only reason the real AP was at southern was because the school was equipped to handle his learning disability and had low enough admission standards he got it). Johnson could do no wrong in statesboro. And truthfully had navy not come calling he probably would have still been there or if in the first round of jumping up in competition ga so had done so in 2001 (they voted the BOR said no). Navy/army/airforce are entirely different ballgames in general. They have plenty of money, the limiter truly is the outside criteria. I have no doubt Johnson was chasing the ability to compete at the p5 level and that challenge but was probably also told a number of things that turned out to be false by Radokovich and probably false by things out of Radokovich's control even as the AD (hence why he jumped ship to clemson) Johnson knew what he needed. He continuously was told no. He got a locker room renovation on his own remember because he knew the kids needed a better new facility.
 

Techster

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12,601
Certain schools are willing to do things to maintain top tier status that GT will never do. I won't get into it, and for those that really want to know, you can do search on this site for discussions of what GT is and isn't willing to do.

Before we get too far down the road, let's not put the cart before the horse. CGC has recruited well, but he still hasn't won anything. You guys know I love what this staff is doing, and we are bringing in the horses to eventually run with the teams at the top. As of right now, CGC still hasn't won an ACC Championship or finished in the top 10 in the final rankings. Several things can be true at once: CPJ was a good coach, and he had some outstanding seasons. He also was not that great of a recruiter (in terms of signing top rated recruits) but punched above his recruiting weight (admittedly, he dug his own hole to climb out of with respect to his recruiting). The 2014 season is great example of the latter. That 2014 team was made of ZERO top 25 classes, but we were able to finish in the top 10 and won the Orange Bowl.

Point is, CGC is steering us in the right direction in terms of recruiting. We just won an important opening game against a historically recruiting powerhouse. However, one game doesn't make a season. CGC has yet to accomplish the on the field things CPJ did...and let's not lose the plot, wins and losses matters more than recruiting (though they are related).

Rounding back to the OP, when you win, good things happen. GT needs to keep winning if we want to be in the conversation with the elite teams. Keep winning, and all the feel good stories and positive narratives write themselves. Believe it or not, there are a LOT of media members out there that want GT to do well. There was a certain "me against the world" attitude that CPJ had, and it fit GT's "a northern school in a southern state" attitude, and we loved CPJ for that. Times have changed. You can't have an antagonistic attitude towards the media anymore...anyone notice CGC doesn't single media members to call them out? He understands how that game works. Social Media has changed the game, and CGC is the right guy for the right time with his social media presence. Recruits are responding to that. If we keep winning, there's is an absolute enormous ceiling for GT given our physical presence in the South's most important city. As I said many times, with the ability of SAs to market themselves, GT will have an advantage in Atlanta...even though some here still don't believe it. Gotta win though...winning is key.

I've said for years, if we get the right guy in, and he ran schemes that were recruiting and NFL friendly, GT could do some damage. Here we are. Notice how we make less of an issue about test scores, STEM majors, and narrow curriculums than we did in the past? Sure, those are still obstacles to some a portion of the elite recruits, but it's no longer the impossible hurdle many on here chose to believe. Why? Because CGC is flipping the narrative. He doing exactly what I thought he we should have done: Create value in GT's elite degree, our location in Atlanta, etc.

Let's see how this season plays out. We've got a good start, and beating UCF will get us even more good press. If we get over the UCF hurdle, Syracuse is very winnable. We could be 3-0 heading to Louisville, and sets us up for a national spotlight against Clemson if we can get to 4-0.

One step at a time. Let's bring the hammer to UCF!
 

SWATlien

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
278
I’m really not up for the revisionist history honestly and Golden has taken more than enough unsolicited shots at the program himself, so maybe he needs to decide whether he is going support or
Not. 2014 was great year but CPJ coached 4 more yrs after that and what was the record? Where were these above avg caliber athletes? Even the guys on the team was questioning some of the guys being brought in.

HEAT🔥🔥🔥
 

GoJacketsInRaleigh

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
97
It feels like Paul Johnson always had an excuse. Academics. Money. Scheduling bye weeks. It was always something. He had a few good years but overall it was meh. He churned through DCs and it was same **** different day.

Saturday we are missing several big names and I never once heard an excuse made. Just go play and compete and they freaking did. The tone from the top is so much better now.
 

potatohead

Ramblin' Wreck
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599
It feels like Paul Johnson always had an excuse. Academics. Money. Scheduling bye weeks. It was always something. He had a few good years but overall it was meh. He churned through DCs and it was same **** different day.

Saturday we are missing several big names and I never once heard an excuse made. Just go play and compete and they freaking did. The tone from the top is so much better now.

So I love cpj, as evidenced by my photo. That being said, he is not a modern coach. You can get away with being a public curmudgeon when you’re winning, but the behind the scenes, coaches need to stay on the cutting edge of recruiting and hiring the right coaches to bring in the right players.

a modern coach is a CEO. CPJ is from a different era. For those that point to someone like Saban...consider that his public persona does not reflect his management and hiring. He may think certain things are bull****, but this is the game to play to get the guys you want. Once you get them in, get them fit, coach them up, and win games, you can say whatever the hell you want to the media. But you’ve got to get there first. evey ceo I know laughs at the bs hoop jumping they go through to create “culture” and “good feelings” make ajc’s “Top place to work” etc etc. But it’s a necessary part of the role.

sadly cpj didn’t get that...which sucks
 

WreckinGT

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It feels like Paul Johnson always had an excuse. Academics. Money. Scheduling bye weeks. It was always something. He had a few good years but overall it was meh. He churned through DCs and it was same **** different day.

Saturday we are missing several big names and I never once heard an excuse made. Just go play and compete and they freaking did. The tone from the top is so much better now.
Why would there be excuses after a win? Go watch the Citadel post game from last year and tell me there weren’t any excuses. Monumental transition was close to becoming a meme. Coaches are like anyone else. They make excuses when things aren’t going well or when they are being criticized.
 

GoJacketsInRaleigh

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
97
Why would there be excuses after a win? Go watch the Citadel post game from last year and tell me there weren’t any excuses. Monumental transition was close to becoming a meme. Coaches are like anyone else. They make excuses when things aren’t going well or when they are being criticized.
If he's saying "monumental transition" in year 10 I will apologize.
 

takethepoints

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:rolleyes:
Here we go. But I’ll play.
CPJ averaged 7.8 wins at Tech
He won 8 or more games 5 times in 11 years
He won 7 or fewer games 6 times in 11 years
He went 3-6 in bowl games
He went 1-1 in the ACCCG
He went 51-37 in ACC play
His teams finished the season ranked 3 times

Those are very average numbers for a P5 program. I’d be willing to be that Tech was among the most average P5 programs in the country over PJs tenure. Most of PJs biggest years happened early in his tenure, as we all know. 3 of his 5 8+ win seasons occurred in the first 4 years of his tenure. 3 of his 6 <=7 win seasons occurred in the last 4.

If we only judged PJ on his first 7 years as HC, then yeah, it’s fair to say that achieving that level of success would be adequate for what Collins was hired to do. But if you look at PJs entire body of work, it was pretty unimpressive.

What Late Kick, and many others, believe is that while PJs first 7 years were solid and made GT somewhat relevant, those 7 years can become the norm for GT. Playing in the ACCCG, finishing the year ranked, beating UGA, spending multiple weeks per year in the Top 25, playing in NY6 games.... those can be achieved much more regularly than a couple times every 11 years.

I don’t think anybody is expecting GT to become the next Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Oklahoma, etc. But many think that GT can get to the level of places like Auburn, Michigan State, Washington, Wisconsin, Utah, etc. Places that are regularly ranked, challenge their bigger rivals, play for conference championships, and have an outside shot to get into the CFP every year. Recruiting in the top 20 consistently is a very achievable goal. I don’t think Tech will ever recruit in the Top 7 or so, but a great class can get to the 8-15 range. The 2022 class has potential to get that range.

The point is, nobody is saying CPJ wasn't a great coach, or didn’t do great things at Tech. I wish people would get that out of their heads. The point is that CPJ’s most successful years are attainable on a consistent basis, and not sporadically over a decade or so.
1. Dude, if you think the numbers you gave here are "very average for a P5 program", I'd strongly advise you to take another look at P5 programs. Here are winning percentages for P5 programs for the last 5 years:


Take a look; I'll still be here. Doesn't make Tech look so bad, does it? Even at 50%, Tech is right at the half way point for P5 winning percentages. That's "average", admittedly, but the schools in the lower half - like, say, the bottom 7 teams in the SEC - would kill to get there.

2. I hope people are right about having greater success. I hope Collins can lead us to it. Perhaps we can get to the level of Wisconsin or Washington; they've both done it with 30-ish recruiting classes. But … I continue to be doubtful that we can do it consistently enough to reach the goals many here seem to think can happen. We'll see.

3. Actually, I think that many here didn't think Paul was a good coach. I heard continual gripping about how we "Couldn't recruit. Couldn't win. Couldn't pass. Couldn't do as well as <your favorite perennial top 25 team here>." This happened even after 2014, largely because of the injury sunami of 2015. There was audible disappointment among some here when we rebounded for 9 wins in 2016. It showed up even more in 2018 when the team lost its starting BB for the second straight year and lost three straight. When they picked themselves off the floor, won 7 (including against Da U and UVA) , and went to a bowl, we had posts here saying they didn't deserve a bowl game. I think the reason for that was that some feared that Paul would survive as head coach.

But that's that. He's gone and we have to hope that Collins will prove to be as good in the long term. Despite some snipping above, I continue to hope he will do as well or better.
 

JacketOff

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Dude, if you think the numbers you gave here are "very average for a P5 program", I'd strongly advise you to take another look at P5 programs. Here are winning percentages for P5 programs for the last 5 years:
Take a look; I'll still be here. Doesn't make Tech look so bad, does it? Even at 50%, Tech is right at the half way point for P5 winning percentages.
:ROFLMAO: :LOL::banghead:
There’s no actual way you just tried to argue that Tech hasn’t been average, by saying that they are literally the MOST average.:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Based on every metric, Georgia Tech football has been an average program over the last handful of years. Not great, not terrible, just average. Of course the teams worse than average would love to trade spots. They’d get better. That argument doesn’t even make sense. What you’ve just posted may be the worst counter argument of all time, and I honestly have no idea where to go from here :ROFLMAO:
 

takethepoints

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,516
I liked Paul Johnson. He was an excellent offensive coach, but he was at best an average recruiter with average assistance coaches. Collins can recruit very well. To be a winner, he needs very good assistance coaches and keep team morale high.

At least IMHO, academic standards are more likely to be raised than to be lowered. I think there is a niche for us to be better than we have been, more like a Notre Dame or Stanford.

I think beating Clemson consistently will be tough. Swinney is an excellent recruiter with very few obstacles. He has managed to hire good coaches and maintain team discipline. Our best bet is he goes to Alabama after Sabin retires.
In general, I agree with this. But … the differences between ND, Stanford, and Tech have been gone over here multiple times and I don't see any reason to believe that they are going away. Those differences remain the major reason why I'm doubtful that "good recruiting" can overcome them.

But we'll see. Hope I'm wrong.
 

GCdaJuiceMan

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:ROFLMAO: :LOL::banghead:
There’s no actual way you just tried to argue that Tech hasn’t been average, by saying that they are literally the MOST average.:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Based on every metric, Georgia Tech football has been an average program over the last handful of years. Not great, not terrible, just average. Of course the teams worse than average would love to trade spots. They’d get better. That argument doesn’t even make sense. What you’ve just posted may be the worst counter argument of all time, and I honestly have no idea where to go from here :ROFLMAO:

This is what you are looking for :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Billy Madison GIFs | Tenor
 

iopjacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
298
Looking at Georgia Tech Football History, Paul Johnson has one of the better coaching records. My following of Georgia Tech began with Coach Bud Carson. All I knew about Coach Bobby Dodd was he always beat Clemson and he was Athletic Director while I was at Tech. Whether you think our historical record is good is another debate. You can put me on the side that thinks it is good.

Most of our coaches had strengths and weaknesses. I thought Bud Carson and Bill Lewis lost the locker room. Bobby Ross said he couldn't keep the team’s ego in check in the year following the National Title. Probably contributed to him leaving to San Diego. Dodd advised Bill Curry to take the Alabama coaching job. I thought Tech was going Div 1AA during this period. Ralph Friedgen and to a lesser extent John Tenuta weren't head coaches but contributed to a lot of wins.

Billl Curry and Bobby Ross didn't have good records but left the program in better shape than when they got it. Mac McWhorter actually has the best record but it was only one game.

Our all time record is 733-490-40 (.600)

I left the coaches bowl records out of the stats.
John Heisman's record is best with 102-29-7 (.764)
Bobby Dodd is second at 165-64-8 (.713)
George O'Leary is third at 52-33-0 (.612)
Paul Johnson 83-60-0 (.580) and William Alexander 134-95-15 (.580) are tied.
Chan Gailey is close behind at 44-33-0 (.579)

My data and comments are derived from the link below.

Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets Coaches
 

ncjacket79

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
808
The recruiting is probably even going to have to go up another notch somehow if we really are going to become a sleeping giant. Right now the program looks to be projecting at a ceiling that was similar to CPJ's best years.
Right now we aren’t projecting anything because there isn’t enough of a body of work to project from. Last year doesn’t count and we only have the one game this year.
 

Boaty1

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
984
LOL!!! A post about somebody from outside the program calling GT a sleeping a giant is being shouted down by supposed GT fans. If you want to know GT's biggest hurdle... look in the mirror.

I've been reminded why I come to this board less and less.
 
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