Targeting, without a doubt? Jimbo thinks so.

[33jacket]

He sure as hell did.

nah. Normal square up hit for a guy way bigger than the qb

 

[gtg936g]

nah. Normal square up hit for a guy way bigger than the qb

This. I am not exactly sure how we teach tackling in college, but it is very difficult for linemen not to have some incidental helmet contact because of their size. I was taught differently than the kids are today, but as others have said wrapping up negates the targeting IMO. A lineman wrapping up is a lot different than a safety leaving his feet to obliterate a QB with a high speed hit.

I will point out that neither the UNC QB nor the FSU QB was hurt. I will also point out that several players were hurt during the game by incidental high speed hits, and I think those are the most troubling.

I am not really sure I understand why QBs get special treatment from a rules perspective. They were never the ones that sustained the majority of the injuries anyway. If any player gets hit with a late or cheap shot, then the official should call it, but a hit should not be ok for one player to take and wrong for another.

 

[33jacket]

What tape are you watching?

another opinion
http://www.myajc.com/news/sports/college/johnson-agrees-with-gotsis-ejection-doesnt-like-ru/nnwNB/

Again, he had helmet contact no dispute. Did not lead with the helmet vs UNC and I agree with this opinion posted as well. Based on the rule, any helmet contact, whether leading or not, on a defenseless player the flag needs to be thrown. So the officials missed it vs FSU. Jimbo is right.

When I played you were taught to put your facemask right on the top of the numbers and hit up and look up. The crown may have contact with the lower portion of the other persons helmet. But thats not targeting. Adam did that. He is taller, so perhaps a little higher and I GET why the officials called it vs UNC. He had helmet contact with a defenseless player. But that doesnt' make the rule right. It was a perfect form tackle IMO both times and football is becoming a ***** sport.

But this tackle is not leading with the helmet imo. Dude is 6-5 and running at you...no matter what your face is ahead of your body. He didn't launch etc...he wrapped up and popped.

And if i was his coach, both CPJ and Pelton, I sure as hell wouldn't tell adam to not do that again. Just make sure to try to keep his helmet slightly lower. But why don't you try running full speed at a dodging QB and see how accurate your helmet placement is LOL. That is why the rule is a bit dumb. To fully ensure you totally miss the helmet you have to tackle low, which means you have to drop your head, get off balance, potentially miss the QB and risk getting a flag for below the waist hits (NFL). Its no wonder why so many missed tackles in the pocket now...

and BTW, when you drop your head and tackle low like that...you are now at risk for more serious spine injury than if you just tackled normal like you should be allowed to.

the rule is dumb. simply dumb.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

another opinion
http://www.myajc.com/news/sports/college/johnson-agrees-with-gotsis-ejection-doesnt-like-ru/nnwNB/

Again, he had helmet contact no dispute. Did not lead with the helmet vs UNC and I agree with this opinion posted as well. Based on the rule, any helmet contact, whether leading or not, on a defenseless player the flag needs to be thrown. So the officials missed it vs FSU. Jimbo is right.

When I played you were taught to put your facemask right on the top of the numbers and hit up and look up. The crown may have contact with the lower portion of the other persons helmet. But thats not targeting. Adam did that. He is taller, so perhaps a little higher and I GET why the officials called it vs UNC. He had helmet contact with a defenseless player. But that doesnt' make the rule right. It was a perfect form tackle IMO both times and football is becoming a ***** sport.

But this tackle is not leading with the helmet imo. Dude is 6-5 and running at you...no matter what your face is ahead of your body. He didn't launch etc...he wrapped up and popped.

And if i was his coach, both CPJ and Pelton, I sure as hell wouldn't tell adam to not do that again. Just make sure to try to keep his helmet slightly lower. But why don't you try running full speed at a dodging QB and see how accurate your helmet placement is LOL. That is why the rule is a bit dumb. To fully ensure you totally miss the helmet you have to tackle low, which means you have to drop your head, get off balance, potentially miss the QB and risk getting a flag for below the waist hits (NFL). Its no wonder why so many missed tackles in the pocket now...

and BTW, when you drop your head and tackle low like that...you are now at risk for more serious spine injury than if you just tackled normal like you should be allowed to.

the rule is dumb. simply dumb.

All I'm saying is he led with his helmet, it was the first point of contact, that much is plainly obvious. Furthermore, if you want to run full speed into somebody, especially leading with the helmet and leaning forward, you're taking your chances.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

This. I am not exactly sure how we teach tackling in college, but it is very difficult for linemen not to have some incidental helmet contact because of their size. I was taught differently than the kids are today, but as others have said wrapping up negates the targeting IMO. A lineman wrapping up is a lot different than a safety leaving his feet to obliterate a QB with a high speed hit.

I will point out that neither the UNC QB nor the FSU QB was hurt. I will also point out that several players were hurt during the game by incidental high speed hits, and I think those are the most troubling.

I am not really sure I understand why QBs get special treatment from a rules perspective. They were never the ones that sustained the majority of the injuries anyway. If any player gets hit with a late or cheap shot, then the official should call it, but a hit should not be ok for one player to take and wrong for another.

The rule is designed to protect defenseless players.

 

[B Lifsey]

This. I am not exactly sure how we teach tackling in college, but it is very difficult for linemen not to have some incidental helmet contact because of their size. I was taught differently than the kids are today, but as others have said wrapping up negates the targeting IMO. A lineman wrapping up is a lot different than a safety leaving his feet to obliterate a QB with a high speed hit.

I will point out that neither the UNC QB nor the FSU QB was hurt. I will also point out that several players were hurt during the game by incidental high speed hits, and I think those are the most troubling.

I am not really sure I understand why QBs get special treatment from a rules perspective. They were never the ones that sustained the majority of the injuries anyway. If any player gets hit with a late or cheap shot, then the official should call it, but a hit should not be ok for one player to take and wrong for another.

I TOTALLY agree with your statement that I have in bold except I would add it "should negate" the targeting. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is anything in the rule that actually negates it. So, we all agree that it should not be considered targeting but, by rule, it is.

What is a guy Gotsis size to do when wrapping up a QB like that? Run by him and arm tackle? That's no good. Dive for the knees? Even worse. As written, it is a poorly defined rule!

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

It's a poorly written rule. I don't think it has reduced injuries. If it isn't changed more bad and inconsistent calls will result next year also.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I am not really sure I understand why QBs get special treatment from a rules perspective. They were never the ones that sustained the majority of the injuries anyway. If any player gets hit with a late or cheap shot, then the official should call it, but a hit should not be ok for one player to take and wrong for another.

This, this, and more this. But the rule,IMO, was written primarily to protect QBs. Thus I doubt it gets changed.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I TOTALLY agree with your statement that I have in bold except I would add it "should negate" the targeting. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is anything in the rule that actually negates it. So, we all agree that it should not be considered targeting but, by rule, it is.

What is a guy Gotsis size to do when wrapping up a QB like that? Run by him and arm tackle? That's no good. Dive for the knees? Even worse. As written, it is a poorly defined rule!

The Seattle Seahawks teach a variety of tackling forms based on rugby style tackling. The head is never in play for either the tackler or the target. (They do not teach plant the facemask into the upper numbers.)

For defenseless players, they attack what they call the "strike zone" of the target. This is the space below the neck and above the knees. The strike is made with the shoulder, not the head.

18:25 for strike zone, but the whole video is very good.



The coach stresses they take great pride in playing physical football. These techniques do not diminish the physicality of football, but they do make it safer.

 

[jeffgt14]

Outside of Gus Frerotte headbutting a goal post I really don’t recall many QB’s being knocked out with concussions consistently. Of course it happens from time to time but mostly it’s defensive players who are leading with their helmet.

If you aren’t “launching” yourself into another player I just don’t see any reason to ever throw a flag. Incidental helmet contact is going to happen but the chances of someone getting a concussion from it is probably about the same getting hit and your head smacking the ground.

 

[jeffgt14]

The Seattle Seahawks teach a variety of tackling forms based on rugby style tackling. The head is never in play for either the tackler or the target. (They do not teach plant the facemask into the upper numbers.)

For defenseless players, they attack what they call the "strike zone" of the target. This is the space below the neck and above the knees. The strike is made with the shoulder, not the head.

18:25 for strike zone, but the whole video is very good.



The coach stresses they take great pride in playing physical football. These techniques do not diminish the physicality of football, but they do make it safer.

The problem with that is when your intent is to nail a guy in his strike zone with your shoulder and the offensive player lowers his should at the same time in order to run you over you end up smacking helmets really hard and then it looks like 100% targeting. IMO also 100% more dangerous to both players than either of Gostis’ tackles.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

The problem with that is when your intent is to nail a guy in his strike zone with your shoulder and the offensive player lowers his should at the same time in order to run you over you end up smacking helmets really hard and then it looks like 100% targeting. IMO also 100% more dangerous to both players than either of Gostis’ tackles.

The strike zone technique is for hitting defenseless players not ball carriers that see the hit coming. Also, that's why they have replays. Btw, we're talking about the Gotsis hit where he hit a qb who just released the ball. Lead with the shoulder, not the head, aim for the near peck (Seahawk teaching point) and there's no issue.

Go back and watch the video, especially the last two minutes.

 

[jeffgt14]

The strike zone technique is for hitting defenseless players not ball carriers that see the hit coming. Also, that's why they have replays. Btw, we're talking about the Gotsis hit where he hit a qb who just released the ball. Lead with the shoulder, not the head, aim for the near peck (Seahawk teaching point) and there's no issue.

Go back and watch the video, especially the last two minutes.

I can’t watch the video at work. I just disagree that there is a cleaner and safer way to tackle than what Gostis did outside of the fact that Gotsis is just bigger and stronger. It’s football and you’re going to get your **** rocked if you just stand there and take it. You’re not going to get a concussion or tear and ACL from anything Gostis did.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I can’t watch the video at work. I just disagree that there is a cleaner and safer way to tackle than what Gostis did outside of the fact that Gotsis is just bigger and stronger. It’s football and you’re going to get your **** rocked if you just stand there and take it. You’re not going to get a concussion or tear and ACL from anything Gostis did.

Watch it when you get home or at lunch on your phone.

 

[deeeznutz]

My problem with the UNC penalty is that Gotsis was coming off being held by the UNC OL and hit Williams about 1-1.5 steps after that. When being held around the shoulders from behind it's going to pull your body upright, so he had NO CHANCE to get any lower than he did before hitting the QB, all due to the uncalled penalty on the OL.
Besides that, I LOVE that FSU is complaining about us being dirty/hitting too hard...the irony is so outstanding! Screw those guys

 

[bke1984]

The rule leaves it up to interpretation by the ref, as do pretty much all penalties...but unfortunately they err on the side of caution. Both of those hits are textbook tackles...some guys are just bigger than others. Contact with a helmet or facemask should not be the determining factor, but rather the subjective opinion of the referee as to whether the tackle actually put the player in danger because of contact with the head or neck.

No one every calls targeting on a running back when he lowers his head and slams it into the defenders facemask...much more dangerous btw, but that play goes completely unpenalized while stupid crap like the play in the UNC game draws flags and changes games.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Again, the reason for the rule is to protect defenseless players. At some point, the game evolved, or devolved, from tackling to hitting. ESPN's "Jacked Up" award segment is all you have to see to know this. Every kid playing the game would rather knock the snot out of a guy, even if he ain't looking or able to defend himself, than wrap up and tackle him.

The rule tries to discourage a defender from leading with his head which is not only for the protection of the target, but also the tackler. If you lead with your head, you're fair game in my book. Lead with your shoulder, aim for the side of the chest not the dead center and both players heads are completely out of play. If you're a bigger guy, you just have to get lower, sucks for you. A defenseless target is not going to lower or shift his head at the last minute so I don't buy that arguement.

I don't see this as unreasonable or diminishing the ferocity, integrity or enjoyment value of the game one bit.

If this happened to JT, guys would be singing a different tune around here, I'm sure of it.

 

[bke1984]

Again, the reason for the rule is to protect defenseless players. At some point, the game evolved, or devolved, from tackling to hitting. ESPN's "Jacked Up" award segment is all you have to see to know this. Every kid playing the game would rather knock the snot out of a guy, even if he ain't looking or able to defend himself, than wrap up and tackle him.

The rule tries to discourage a defender from leading with his head which is not only for the protection of the target, but also the tackler. If you lead with your head, you're fair game in my book. Lead with your shoulder, aim for the side of the chest not the dead center and both players heads are completely out of play. If you're a bigger guy, you just have to get lower, sucks for you. A defenseless target is not going to lower or shift his head at the last minute so I don't buy that arguement.

I don't see this as unreasonable or diminishing the ferocity, integrity or enjoyment value of the game one bit.

If this happened to JT, guys would be singing a different tune around here, I'm sure of it.

Gotsis was leading with his entire body, not his head or shoulder. He wrapped the guys up and completed a form tackle...period. Bigger guys cannot be punished for tackling the way he did against Williams....and definitely should not be ejected from games

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Gotsis was leading with his entire body, not his head or shoulder. He wrapped the guys up and completed a form tackle...period. Bigger guys cannot be punished for tackling the way he did against Williams....and definitely should not be ejected from games

I'm still trying to find a definition of a form tackle that says to crash your helmet into the helmet of your target.

 

[bke1984]

I'm still trying to find a definition of a form tackle that says to crash your helmet into the helmet of your target.

I may be remembering this wrong, but I believe his face mask was in Marquese's chest...about an inch of his helmet touched the facemask. It's a form tackle and a BS call.

Either way, the player shouldn't be ejected unless the ref believes he has bad intent, which I don't believe Gotsis had.