Substitution Pattern & Minutes

[CuseJacket]

I've been clamoring in chats about our substitution pattern and minutes distribution. Here's an article about how Syracuse SG Trevor Cooney is chasing Dennis Scott's ACC record of MPG played.

While Syracuse doesn't have much of a choice this year, traditionally speaking I tend to agree with the Boeheim school of thought where you play your best players until they absolutely need to rest. It seems Gregory prefers his guys to be fresh when the clock expires.

There's probably a middle-ground, but in any case I don't like playing 9-10 guys under normal circumstances. In doing so you sacrifice minutes from your best players and I also think it prevents guys from getting in a rhythm.

The exception to my rule is if you don't have a clear-cut 1st team, you may just be hoping to find a spark to ride out for the game. However even when our guys get hot we don't seem to ride the wave. Of course this is ignoring the fact that not establishing a clear-cut 1st team is a problem in and of itself.

What do you all think?

 

[AE 87]

I've been clamoring in chats about our substitution pattern and minutes distribution. Here's an article about how Syracuse SG Trevor Cooney is chasing Dennis Scott's ACC record of MPG played.

While Syracuse doesn't have much of a choice this year, traditionally speaking I tend to agree with the Boeheim school of thought where you play your best players until they absolutely need to rest. It seems Gregory prefers his guys to be fresh when the clock expires.

There's probably a middle-ground, but in any case I don't like playing 9-10 guys under normal circumstances. In doing so you sacrifice minutes from your best players and I also think it prevents guys from getting in a rhythm.

The exception to my rule is if you don't have a clear-cut 1st team, you may just be hoping to find a spark to ride out for the game. However even when our guys get hot we don't seem to ride the wave. Of course this is ignoring the fact that not establishing a clear-cut 1st team is a problem in and of itself.

What do you all think?

I agree. While I don't know the answer exactly, I agree that substitution patterns seem to be part of the problem. Sitting both Cox and Mitchell with 3 fouls so that they end the game with 3 fouls, eg, was crazy, imo.

 

[McCamish Maniacs]

I think you can find a happy medium between what Gregory does and what Boeheim does. I have no problem keeping guys fresh, but far too often it seems a guy who's getting hot is pulled out of the game. If someone is playing well and the team is in a rhythm, no need to sub

 

[Peacone36]

I just wish that it didnt seem like its pre-determined how many minutes each player is gonna get. When Q hits 2 threes and is immediately taken out i become an inconsolable rage monster.

 

[McCamish Maniacs]

I just wish that it didnt seem like its pre-determined how many minutes each player is gonna get. When Q hits 2 threes and is immediately taken out i become an inconsolable rage monster.

Exactly my point

 

[RamblinRed]

I don't really agree. It's a different game. If you don't get your top guys decent rest they will wear down at the end of the season. Cooney was awful at the end of last season because his legs were spent and the same will happen this season.
Starters should play around 30-32 mpg.
This team has alot of solid talent, but not alot of great talent, so I get playing more of a rotation - though some of the rotations do not make sense to me.
They are also juggling with TJ, who they try to keep to no more than 25 mpg.

There could be a greater delineation of starters to backups, but some of this is simply searching for the right matchups and hot players game to game. Though as Peacone says, it is frustrating when a guy gets hot and you take him out - that's when you run longer.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Fwiw I honestly haven't followed bball since Brainless showed Cremins the door. I was and am a huge Cremins fan and that episode killed my bball passion.

Having qualified myself as largely uninformed on current events, this issue is largely dependent on the particular team and players on it. Dean Smith would sub five at a time and keep his 1st team fresh. There was a drop off in their play but it was minimal; their 2nd team was awful good. For most of Cremins era he had between 6-9 guys that could play legitimate minutes and the starters often played nearly the entire game. I think Cremins liked to have his best guys on the court as long as possible due to their playmaking ability but I don't doubt he would have subbed much more if team depth had allowed it. I find it hard to believe we have the kind of depth to allow mass substitutions or the luxury of sitting guys to give them a prolonged blow. How many minutes per game does MGH sit?

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

As for subbing the hot hand. I agree you want to let the hot hand continue if possible but substitutions are more involved than who hit the last two shots. Coach has to account for what players the other team subs, comparable number of big men on the court, defensive needs, etc.

 

[CuseJacket]

I don't really agree. It's a different game. If you don't get your top guys decent rest they will wear down at the end of the season. Cooney was awful at the end of last season because his legs were spent and the same will happen this season.
Starters should play around 30-32 mpg.
This team has alot of solid talent, but not alot of great talent, so I get playing more of a rotation - though some of the rotations do not make sense to me.
They are also juggling with TJ, who they try to keep to no more than 25 mpg.

There could be a greater delineation of starters to backups, but some of this is simply searching for the right matchups and hot players game to game. Though as Peacone says, it is frustrating when a guy gets hot and you take him out - that's when you run longer.

Would you be surprised if I told you Cooney averaged 32.5 mpg during the final 9 game stretch where Syracuse fell apart? Cooney was not awful because of minutes despite what TV announcers proclaimed. He was awful because teams finally figured out how to scheme against him i.e., shadow/no helpside/don't let him step in to anything.

In the end I don't think we're disagreeing. I'm not saying run guys 40 minutes like Boeheim is doing this year. But I'm also saying don't give 9-10 guys a full run.

To be more specific to GT, my issues this year are not just about players coming out when they're hot though that is a primary reason for my OP. I remember stretches where we've needed Demarco in, period, but he's not out there. Same goes with players, who I will not name, being on the floor too long when they are enigmas on offense and/or defense.

All that said I like what Gregory accomplished today with minutes. For the most part he stuck with a rotation of 7 guys and another 3 only gave the starters breathers. Compare that to the box score vs. Pitt where 9 played significant minutes and that's where my issues lie. Do I think there were some wasted minutes given to the bench today? Perhaps, but that's just my ignorant opinion and I'd be splitting hairs. Ultimately I liked what I saw today and hope it continues.