Run and Shoot?

bat_082994

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Hey I found this thread from another forum talking about CPJ's old days as an offensive coordinator back at Hawaii talking about how they used to run more of a Run and Shoot offense and then using that to open up the running game. Take a look at it and tell me what you think. Is it something CPJ should consider reverting back to? Am I insane for even considering this? Could this save CPJ's job?

http://gtsportstalk.com/georgia-tech-football/2927-cpjs-spread-option-reverse.html
 

IronJacket7

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Every defense that we face knows our run/pass ratio is 75/25. In order to be an "efficient" offense you have to be balanced.

If we changed this ratio to 60/40 it would help our run game and pass pro. The reason for this is simple. When teams know your going to run or they know your going to pass, it cuts the dc's work load in half. That's not to say its not still difficult to stop the Flexbone and all the plays that can be ran out of it. But, when an offense is one dimensional then defenses don't have to be 2 dimensional to shut you down.

Should CPJ consider reverting to this? Well the Flexbone already has the run and shoot principles built into it. So, imo he doesn't have to revert back. He just needs to be more balanced in his play calling.

Can you run the ball every play of the game and when? Yes. Is it smart? I think no.

Balance is the hardest thing for a defense to stop.
 

ATL1

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IronJacket7 said:
Every defense that we face knows our run/pass ratio is 75/25. In order to be an "efficient" offense you have to be balanced.

If we changed this ratio to 60/40 it would help our run game and pass pro. The reason for this is simple. When teams know your going to run or they know your going to pass, it cuts the dc's work load in half. That's not to say its not still difficult to stop the Flexbone and all the plays that can be ran out of it. But, when an offense is one dimensional then defenses don't have to be 2 dimensional to shut you down.

Should CPJ consider reverting to this? Well the Flexbone already has the run and shoot principles built into it. So, imo he doesn't have to revert back. He just needs to be more balanced in his play calling.

Can you run the ball every play of the game and when? Yes. Is it smart? I think no.

Balance is the hardest thing for a defense to stop.

I'm not a fan of the offense nor I'm I a fan of the run and shoot in their pure forms. I think both can be effective as a part of an offense but not as a base. Both are extremes of themselves but a solid blend works. That's what Oregon, Auburn, Clemson, & BYU have recognized, it`s something that I had hoped CPJ would do. Being balanced is important.
 

johncu

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Have you guys watched the last three games? The issue isn't that we don't pass enough, it's that we are absolutely terrible when we try.

I suppose you could argue that we should devote more practice time to passing in order to improve at it and therefore be able to pass in games, but I'm not so sure about that either. We are screwing up the base pretty badly at times right now, and many people are making the exact opposite argument - we are trying to do too much and need to simplify and focus on what we do best.

I honestly don't know what to think right now.
 

Longestday

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Passing is killing us. If we were making completions to the open receivers we would be 6 and 0.

We cannot run the option well and CPJ is trying to use Vads passing talents. The problem is Vads passing talents need more more, the OL/BB is not good at pass protection, and our receivers have dropped several in the hands hits. I would rather die running then die passing. We have several drives where we get to their 30 and pass/drop/miss 3 downs in a row.
 

IronJacket7

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Have you guys watched the last three games? The issue isn't that we don't pass enough, it's that we are absolutely terrible when we try.

John, I have watched say the last 250+ GT football games or listened to them on the radio.

Part of the issue as to why we are terrible when we try to pass the ball is "when" we are trying to pass the ball. Thus going back to my original post. Balance, Johncu. Balance. The play calling on CPJ's part has been suspect and at times it is not his fault because our offensive line is horrible (penalties and execution).

Go back and re-watch the last 3 games John. You will notice that when we have been successful passing the ball it has often been on 1st down. Why, you ask. The defense is not expecting it. Balance.

Chucking the ball 40 and 50 yards down the field on a Go route on 3 and long is not efficient or balanced play calling my friend. The offensive line is terrible during these scenarios because the package for the defense is setup to handle the 3rd and long. Defenses have sent heavy blitzes on these occasions and there are too many people for the offensive line to block.

Typical time after snap is 3 seconds. You have 3 seconds to pass the ball after the snap. Vad has less than 2 seconds on many occasions. He has no time to throw it. Vad is an exceptional QB and imo has one of the best arms of any QB I have seen at GT in a while with consideration in not only arm strength but touch as well.
 

Ramblin Wrecker

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Can you clarify what you mean by balance? You mentioned run/pass ratio, but I don't think that gets to the root of the problem. We chose an offense that sacrifices the element of surprise (run or pass) in order to be very good at one thing. The 2009 Tech team didn't need a 50-50 run/pass ratio, nor did the Nebraska teams of the mid-90's. They excelled because they were so good at one thing that it didn't matter that everyone in the stadium knew it was coming.

The issue with the all-the-eggs-in-one-basket offensive system is that you must be exceptional in executing that system. Right now, we are not.
 

GTJason

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Ken at the AJC has a really good analysis of our pass protection problems
I would suspect he’s not in an ideal place mentally. He has fallen into a habit of throwing off his back foot, in large part because of protection breakdowns. Ironically, the breakdowns have apparently led him to alter his dropbacks as he anticipates the pass rush. And as he changes his dropback spot, that in turn messes with the protection scheme, as linemen are blocking for him with the idea that he is in one spot when he’s actually in another.
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/georgia-tech/2013/oct/17/lee-learning-play-within-system/

He needs to get a 6th sense of where his linemen are and use them as a sort of moving pick to find space in the pocket. Receivers run routes that favor an angle from the pocket, not 10 yards deep, and not rolling out of it (unless the play is designed for it of course.) It's a comfort issue with the players and it doesn't hurt that our competition has gotten a little stiffer - 2 losses to top 20 opponents. New plays aren't going to increase that comfort level. They need to run the same plays most games so when Lee is analyzing film he can see where the pocket opens up and take advantage of it.

The kid is clearly a little rattled. Think about it this way: the goal for a defense when playing any mobile QB is to force him to stay in the pocket until the pocket gets so small you can sack him. Flushing him out of the pocket rarely ends well for the defense, think Vick in his falcons heyday. So my question is why are we getting killed when our mobile QBs get flushed from the pocket even JT? Their comfort in the backfield is bad, both because of poor O-line play and lack of knowing where to be. Maybe instead of all of those 7 on 7 we were hearing about Lee should have spent more time with the entire OL. It's all hindsight I guess, it's not like our receivers are making amazing catches because of those 7 on 7 drills either...
 

IronJacket7

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Can you clarify what you mean by balance? You mentioned run/pass ratio, but I don't think that gets to the root of the problem. We chose an offense that sacrifices the element of surprise (run or pass) in order to be very good at one thing. The 2009 Tech team didn't need a 50-50 run/pass ratio, nor did the Nebraska teams of the mid-90's. They excelled because they were so good at one thing that it didn't matter that everyone in the stadium knew it was coming.

The issue with the all-the-eggs-in-one-basket offensive system is that you must be exceptional in executing that system. Right now, we are not.
I said 60/40 not 50/50. And in 2009 we had the likes of JD JN AA... This still did not get us past the better defenses.

By balance I simply mean the threat and ability to throw or run on any down.
 

johncu

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John, I have watched say the last 250+ GT football games or listened to them on the radio.

Part of the issue as to why we are terrible when we try to pass the ball is "when" we are trying to pass the ball. Thus going back to my original post. Balance, Johncu. Balance. The play calling on CPJ's part has been suspect and at times it is not his fault because our offensive line is horrible (penalties and execution).

Go back and re-watch the last 3 games John. You will notice that when we have been successful passing the ball it has often been on 1st down. Why, you ask. The defense is not expecting it. Balance.

Chucking the ball 40 and 50 yards down the field on a Go route on 3 and long is not efficient or balanced play calling my friend. The offensive line is terrible during these scenarios because the package for the defense is setup to handle the 3rd and long. Defenses have sent heavy blitzes on these occasions and there are too many people for the offensive line to block.

Typical time after snap is 3 seconds. You have 3 seconds to pass the ball after the snap. Vad has less than 2 seconds on many occasions. He has no time to throw it. Vad is an exceptional QB and imo has one of the best arms of any QB I have seen at GT in a while with consideration in not only arm strength but touch as well.

I totally understand what you're saying, but I have seen the exact opposite sentiment posted countless times on various message boards this year. When we throw incomplete on 1st down it puts us in a really bad position. We are so good at converting 3rd downs because our first 2 plays generally net us at least 7 yards, making 3rd down easy. When we end up in 2nd and long, we are really behind the 8 ball.

I would make the counter argument that passing a lot on 1st down is not a good idea until we can do it efficiently. It has led to several three and outs this season.
 

ToddM

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If you watch one of those videos which was posted in the Syracuse threads ( the one which talks about the Cuse folks speaking to former Navy players ). CPJ says the reason he likes this offense is that you can run every play out of it that you can a conventional set. He says with motion you can overwhelm any part of field you want to. He also says you can make the defense show you their plan prior to snap.

One of the Navy QBs said that the offense cannot be stopped. Slowed to 6-7 yards yes

But

Both say this stuff is only possible when you have the talent in place and doing their jobs.

From CPJs perspective I think he would open the offense up if we had players doing what they are suppose to do.

Watching those short simple videos helped me understand a lot more when in CPJ says our guys r blocking the wrong people.

The biggest example is the guard swooping toward the boundary, outside the defensive end in order to position himself against the LB who is trying met the option on the edge. If done right the LB would be sealed off from the inside, the WR has the corner and the Lead A
back has the lead around the corner to the safety. What screws it up is when the guard blocks the end rather than the LB.

That's sounds little but when he does that the Play is blown up by the unblocked LB. I know if CPJ cannot get perimeter blocking fixed he isn't going to go to more advanced plays.
 

John

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Go back and re-watch the last 3 games John. You will notice that when we have been successful passing the ball it has often been on 1st down. Why, you ask. The defense is not expecting it. Balance.
We have also had times when we tried to throw it on first down (and didn't make it for various reasons) where fans were asking why CPJ called a passing play. It goes both ways.

Chucking the ball 40 and 50 yards down the field on a Go route on 3 and long is not efficient or balanced play calling my friend.
I agree but (and I said this before in another thread), I would love to understand what the playcall was, what routes each players were supposed to run, and see the whole field as the play was being run. As much as CPJ likes those deep passes, I don't think he's calling a play where all four eligible receivers are streaking down the field like it was a designed hail mary pass.
 

ToddM

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Looks like our guy Sewak coached the line with Paul Manera and Ken Niumatalolo ( current navy head coach ) at Hawaii.

Wow I did not know Sewak and CPJ have been together that long


also looks like Manera was/is our Gostis recruiter. He organized the Australian League. Looks like he coaches kids back in Hawaii now but is still called on down under to help high school kids learn our football
 
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ToddM

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Given the post above it seems to me that the problem on the line may be talent rather than coaching. CPJ has made his name with the option and it looks like Sewak has helped him make it.

Something is going on with this line that's for sure but the fact Sewak has been there with them their entire college football life it can't just now be something he is doing.
 

AE 87

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I'm not a fan of the offense nor I'm I a fan of the run and shoot in their pure forms. I think both can be effective as a part of an offense but not as a base. Both are extremes of themselves but a solid blend works. That's what Oregon, Auburn, Clemson, & BYU have recognized, it`s something that I had hoped CPJ would do. Being balanced is important.

I simply don't understand how you can say, "both can be effective as part of an offense but not as a base." They have each been the base of some of the most effective offenses in ncaaf.
 
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