Robert Smith - Clemson

[dressedcheeseside]

Of course you can't but believe me some will try.

Speaking of the rules again, the no targeting of defenseless players is a good rule, imo. It protects both players. The defender could easily suffer a very bad spinal injury leading with the crown of the helmet. The real issue is in the "execution" of the rule. Any rule can be used wrongly by officials, this one is not immune to that. This just happens to be one of those subjective rules where the official has to make a quick judgement call. What really miffs me is when the booth guys screw it up.

 

[kg01]

Right, it's designed to protect the skull, not the brain. Where's all the GT engineers with their designs for head gear that actually works?

It doesn't matter what helmet design there is. If you take a human traveling x mph and stop him, the brain keeps going within the skull (for lack of a better description).

I recall one doctor explain it by putting a tennis ball in a cardboard box and shaking it around. Doesn't matter what you wrap the outside of the box with. That ball's still bouncing around.

 

[jchens_GT]

It doesn't matter what helmet design there is. If you take a human traveling x mph and stop him, the brain keeps going within the skull (for lack of a better description).

I recall one doctor explain it by putting a tennis ball in a cardboard box and shaking it around. Doesn't matter what you wrap the outside of the box with. That ball's still bouncing around.

Makes sense to me. Football is just an inherently violent game. As guys get bigger, faster, and stronger, the violence gets bigger and so does the potential for injury.

 

[Squints]

For everybody complaining about the rules, how bout some suggestions for lowering concussions? If not, then I don't want to hear it.

I don't have any issues with the spirit of the rule. I don't like the implementation and enforcement at this point. I imagine most people are of a similar mind.

Why we're at it let's end damaged knees, ankle sprains, broken fingers, and every other freakin injury that can occur in and out of football.
I'm also for some people living for ever.....dying sucks!

That's a straw man and a pretty ridiculous comparison to make. There's a difference between what you mentioned and brain damage which is what we're talking about here. Preventing injuries doesn't ruin the physicality or toughness of the game. Change it? Yes. But not ruin.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

It doesn't matter what helmet design there is. If you take a human traveling x mph and stop him, the brain keeps going within the skull (for lack of a better description).

I recall one doctor explain it by putting a tennis ball in a cardboard box and shaking it around. Doesn't matter what you wrap the outside of the box with. That ball's still bouncing around.

Newton's first law of motion: objects in motion (the brain) tend to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force. The only way to affect this on the field is to limit the force in collisions and/or the number of collisions, especially direct impacts with the head. It really doesn't matter what impacts the head, it could be a shoulder, elbow, knee or even the ground. An impact is an impact. I've read papers that conclude it's really not the big impacts that do the most damage, it's the sum of the lesser impacts (sub-concussive impacts).

 

[kg01]

Newton's first law of motion: objects in motion (the brain) tend to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force. The only way to affect this on the field is to limit the force in collisions and/or the number of collisions, especially direct impacts with the head. It really doesn't matter what impacts the head, it could be a should, elbow, knee or even the ground. An impact is an impact. I've read papers that conclude it's really not the big impacts that do the most damage, it's the sum of the lesser impacts (sub-concussive impacts).

That's exactly right. Kinda why, as brutal as MMA can be, it's still safer than boxing where the gloves basically allow guys to take a constant diet of hits to the head.

 

[GT Man]

For everybody complaining about the rules, how bout some suggestions for lowering concussions? If not, then I don't want to hear it.

go back to leather helmets. I'm serious. These helmets make players feel invinsible.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

As bad as it is now, positive changes in the game have been made in this regard and it has nothing to do with equipment or on-field rules. It has to do with how adults view concussions with kids and how and when they're allowed to resume play. The ol' "he's ok, he just had his bell rung is all...." doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[GTJason]

I recall one doctor explain it by putting a tennis ball in a cardboard box and shaking it around. Doesn't matter what you wrap the outside of the box with. That ball's still bouncing around.

That's a gross oversimplification of the problem IMO and info like that gets propagated by doctors. What we know about concussions is they are rarely suffered during the initial impact. While the brain itself isn't in direct contact with the skull, it's held in place extremely well. The initial pressure wave does very little to break the linkage, the resonant bounces (of the pressure wave) within the skull do all of the damage. Skull shape has a lot to do with predicting how well you can deal with this. Why doesn't a woodpecker get a concussion? They have the perfect skull shape to deflect ~90% of the pressure. Certain people are predisposed to getting concussions easier while some it's virtually impossible. Helmet shape has evolved in the last 10 years to help with this, basically trying to allow the pressure wave to pass through and out the back of the head, but unfortunately it hasn't been that successful. This is also compounded by players taking pads out of helmets so they can wear a smaller one. I believe this isn't allowed anymore.

*sorry for the rant, professional pet peeve

 

[Northeast Stinger]

H


Who is talking about suing? So let me get this. You're saying if the military comes up with a technology that reduces risk of injury/death, you'd rather not see it deployed? Because that's the more appropriate analogy.



How about this? Be responsible for your own choices? Don't enjoy watching the game anymore? Don't watch it. Go watch soap operas on TV like everyone else.

I think you are right about this. The history of football is that rules and equipment have changed many times over the years. Football has also been close to being banned in past years. Whether it was the elimination of the flying wedge, the introduction of helmets and then face masks, and multiple other rules changes over the past 100 years, observers have often fallen into three categories: (1) Those who decided the sport had seen its best days and perhaps should fade from the national scene. (2) Those who said any of the proposed changes meant the end of football. (3) Those who lobbied for and promoted changes that eventually became second nature for players, coaches and fans in terms of understanding the game.

 

[kg01]

That's a gross oversimplification of the problem IMO and info like that gets propagated by doctors. What we know about concussions is they are rarely suffered during the initial impact. While the brain itself isn't in direct contact with the skull, it's held in place extremely well. The initial pressure wave does very little to break the linkage, the resonant bounces (of the pressure wave) within the skull do all of the damage. Skull shape has a lot to do with predicting how well you can deal with this. Why doesn't a woodpecker get a concussion? They have the perfect skull shape to deflect ~90% of the pressure. Certain people are predisposed to getting concussions easier while some it's virtually impossible. Helmet shape has evolved in the last 10 years to help with this, basically trying to allow the pressure wave to pass through and out the back of the head, but unfortunately it hasn't been that successful. This is also compounded by players taking pads out of helmets so they can wear a smaller one. I believe this isn't allowed anymore.

*sorry for the rant, professional pet peeve

Thanks for adding some color to the discussion. Why have helmet designs been unsuccessful thus far?

 

[GTpdm]

Newton's first law of motion: objects in motion (the brain) tend to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force. The only way to affect this on the field is to limit the force in collisions and/or the number of collisions, especially direct impacts with the head. It really doesn't matter what impacts the head, it could be a shoulder, elbow, knee or even the ground. An impact is an impact. I've read papers that conclude it's really not the big impacts that do the most damage, it's the sum of the lesser impacts (sub-concussive impacts).

Urrgh….must….restrain…urge…to go all…physics-y…

…fail!

Collisions are all about momentum change which is provided by impulse—the product of force acting over time: F·t. If you want to prevent damage in collisions you either: (a) reduce mass and/or speed to limit the possible momentum change (thus making the overall impulse smaller); or (b) take steps to draw out the duration of the impact so that a given impulse can be obtained via a smaller force. (Both of these approaches are used to make autos safer in collisions.) The key point is that case (b) always involves trading distance for time. For example, airbags work by immediately starting the deceleration process for your head so that you can slow down gradually during the full forward motion toward the windshield, instead of flopping forward freely and then being stopped suddenly by a hard impact with the windshield in the last few milliseconds.

Unfortunately, with football head injuries, there is no space inside the skull to trade for time—and by the time helmet-to-helmet contact is made, there isn't really much space in the helmet padding to make a difference in stopping the skull, and thus no real difference in stopping the brain inside the skull.

 

[mmbt0ne]

How about this? Be responsible for your own choices.

Sounds good to me.

Big Tobacco knew there was a link between smoking and cancer and chose to hide that information from the public. They got to deal with that choice.

NFL knew there was a link between playing football and longterm debilitating brain injuries and chose to hide that information from the players. Now they get to be responsible for that choice.

The "be responsible for your own choices" line doesn't get to play when one party is deliberately keeping information from the other.

 

[33jacket]

Lets try it this way. If you play football you may injure your brain. Unless helmets are totally removed this is inevitable. When you have something floating in liquid moving one way. And it comes to an abrupt stop its going to keep going and hit your skull no matter what gear you wear. THATS physics. Short of coming up with and inner skellar brain holder there is nothing on this gods green earth that can prevent these physics. The only way to stop this is end the abrupt impact. The only way to stop that is remove helmets and pads. Or go to 2 hand touch.

Even if u use soft helmets. Abrupt stops to the brain will still exist. The brain wont stop and it will hit the skull. There is no equipment solution. You can get a concussion from a voilent hit to the chest if your head and neck snaps back. Its again....physics.

So basically here it is.

If you play football you are now aware of this danger. You also acknowledge the risks. You sign a court approved legal waiver and play the game and move on.

Or dont play the game. Its not a right. Its not a guarantee. Everything has its risks. Its up to each person or their parents to determine what is acceptable to them or not. Its called choice. We have forgotten choice and moved to right and blame.

If football is now becoming to voilent for this PC world then move to 2 hand touch. Its getting lame. Just dont play the game if u r fearful.

 

[Yoda]

I want to beat the piss out of them at full strength. I'm in NEGA only 35 miles from Clemson and have to listen to them all day. They are almost as delusional as Ugag fans.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

That's a gross oversimplification of the problem IMO and info like that gets propagated by doctors. What we know about concussions is they are rarely suffered during the initial impact. While the brain itself isn't in direct contact with the skull, it's held in place extremely well. The initial pressure wave does very little to break the linkage, the resonant bounces (of the pressure wave) within the skull do all of the damage. Skull shape has a lot to do with predicting how well you can deal with this. Why doesn't a woodpecker get a concussion? They have the perfect skull shape to deflect ~90% of the pressure. Certain people are predisposed to getting concussions easier while some it's virtually impossible. Helmet shape has evolved in the last 10 years to help with this, basically trying to allow the pressure wave to pass through and out the back of the head, but unfortunately it hasn't been that successful. This is also compounded by players taking pads out of helmets so they can wear a smaller one. I believe this isn't allowed anymore.

*sorry for the rant, professional pet peeve

I do not follow this at all. Are you saying that doctors are the problem? Hmmm. I know that not everyone in a given profession practices absolute integrity and competence but I would hardly think blaming a profession that presumably knows more about concussions than any of the rest of us is a little suspect. Maybe I misunderstood.

Frontline had an excellent investigative piece that documented research showing that you do not even have to have a concussion to suffer long term and potentially dangerous damage to the brain. It is the repeated blows over a lifetime of playing the sport that can be catastrophic. Teaching players not to tackle with their heads was a good first step but there is much more that could be done to help with this.

As for woodpeckers, really? That seems like a total throw away point to me. Their skulls are not just shaped differently, they are different in every conceivable way from a human skull, including the honeycombed shock absorbers built into the layers of their skull.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I want to beat the piss out of them at full strength. I'm in NEGA only 35 miles from Clemson and have to listen to them all day. They are almost as delusional as Ugag fans.

Oops, just realized I contributed to a high jacked thread. Short attention span, I guess.

 

[33jacket]

Urrgh….must….restrain…urge…to go all…physics-y…

…fail!

Collisions are all about momentum change which is provided by impulse—the product of force acting over time: F·t. If you want to prevent damage in collisions you either: (a) reduce mass and/or speed to limit the possible momentum change (thus making the overall impulse smaller); or (b) take steps to draw out the duration of the impact so that a given impulse can be obtained via a smaller force. (Both of these approaches are used to make autos safer in collisions.) The key point is that case (b) always involves trading distance for time. For example, airbags work by immediately starting the deceleration process for your head so that you can slow down gradually during the full forward motion toward the windshield, instead of flopping forward freely and then being stopped suddenly by a hard impact with the windshield in the last few milliseconds.

Unfortunately, with football head injuries, there is no space inside the skull to trade for time—and by the time helmet-to-helmet contact is made, there isn't really much space in the helmet padding to make a difference in stopping the skull, and thus no real difference in stopping the brain inside the skull.

Exactly. And with that said....you CAN AND DO get concussions from airbag aided impacts too. There is nothing you can do for the brain with these forces.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Urrgh….must….restrain…urge…to go all…physics-y…

…fail!

Collisions are all about momentum change which is provided by impulse—the product of force acting over time: F·t. If you want to prevent damage in collisions you either: (a) reduce mass and/or speed to limit the possible momentum change (thus making the overall impulse smaller); or (b) take steps to draw out the duration of the impact so that a given impulse can be obtained via a smaller force. (Both of these approaches are used to make autos safer in collisions.) The key point is that case (b) always involves trading distance for time. For example, airbags work by immediately starting the deceleration process for your head so that you can slow down gradually during the full forward motion toward the windshield, instead of flopping forward freely and then being stopped suddenly by a hard impact with the windshield in the last few milliseconds.

Unfortunately, with football head injuries, there is no space inside the skull to trade for time—and by the time helmet-to-helmet contact is made, there isn't really much space in the helmet padding to make a difference in stopping the skull, and thus no real difference in stopping the brain inside the skull.

I agree with all that, but I'm not sure what you disagree with in my post.... Oh, almost forgot..... urgh.

 

[kg01]

Urrgh….must….restrain…urge…to go all…physics-y…

…fail!

Collisions are all about momentum change which is provided by impulse—the product of force acting over time: F·t. If you want to prevent damage in collisions you either: (a) reduce mass and/or speed to limit the possible momentum change (thus making the overall impulse smaller); or (b) take steps to draw out the duration of the impact so that a given impulse can be obtained via a smaller force. (Both of these approaches are used to make autos safer in collisions.) The key point is that case (b) always involves trading distance for time. For example, airbags work by immediately starting the deceleration process for your head so that you can slow down gradually during the full forward motion toward the windshield, instead of flopping forward freely and then being stopped suddenly by a hard impact with the windshield in the last few milliseconds.

Unfortunately, with football head injuries, there is no space inside the skull to trade for time—and by the time helmet-to-helmet contact is made, there isn't really much space in the helmet padding to make a difference in stopping the skull, and thus no real difference in stopping the brain inside the skull.

Yeah, this is the smart-guy version of my ball-in-a-box comparison.