Question about linemen

[LT 1967]

This is a great post and it undersores a big frustration in my mind. Bama doesn't randomly recruit people. They have a process for that. It's not a random crap shoot like most other schools go through. (Yes. they can be a bit more selective buit it doesn't exclude the fact that have a meaningful process...not all of their guys are 5 or even 4 star recruits).

Why do we let a school like this ( and yeah, I do know about their tradition, fan base, etc.) beat us in making this a science instead of an art? You would think, given the base and resources that we have in management, data, statistics, etc. that we would be on the cutting edge of this stuff instead of way back in the pack. Someone (JBatt?) has to be smart enough to leverage the resources we have at our disposal. By this I mean intellectual capital as opposed to just plain financial capital. Although that is helpful too.

You would really enjoy the Book. Phil relates how the Alabama recruiting system is based on the Dallas Cowboys system originally set up using an IBM 360 computer in the early 1960s. In short, they tried to establish the ideal stats for a player at each position. Saban was originally exposed to the Cowboy player evaluation system when Gil Brandt met with Bill Belichick at the Cleveland Browns' offices to review the system. Saban was DC for the Browns at the time and was involved in those meetings. I have attached another page which gives a little more info concerning the system and its influence on Alabama recruiting.

Phil Savage has been close to Saban and Belichick over the years and is a former General Manager of the Cleveland Browns. He was an Analyst and Player Scout in his earlier years in the Pros.

 

[Randy Carson]

Interesting question since we have watched Georgia's and Clemson's Defensive linemen pore through our offensive line for several years at this point. I always say that we are as big as they are in most cases, so what is the problem. I certainly agree that the factors you show are where the answers lie. A couple of years ago, I purchased a copy of Phil Savage's book entitled "4th and Goal Everyday". The book reviews the inter workings of the Alabama football program. I was interested in the recruiting factors. According to Phil, Nick Saban believes it has to do with the "BUBBLE" as far as linemen and linebackers go.

See the attached page from Phil's book which refers to the characteristics of large linemen, Offensive, Defensive and Linebackers.

I do see the characteristic discussed in many of the better linemen I see on teams like Clemson, Alabama, and UGA.

I need suspenders to hold up my pants.

I have a leading bubble instead of a trailing bubble.

 

[LongforDodd]

I know well that at a certain school in NE Ga the heaviest guy in 1977 was an OL at 264 lbs.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I know well that at a certain school in NE Ga the heaviest guy in 1977 was an OL at 264 lbs.

Which school?

For some reason your comment took me back to Chip Kell, All American at Tennessee. He was said to have “set the standard” for modern offensive line blocking at 6’ 240 pounds.

No matter how many times we mention him I never get tired of remembering one of our best DTs ever -Rock Perdoni, at 5’11” 240 pounds.

I also remember in the early to mid 70s a story about training camp for the Atlanta Falcons. They were trying to go heavier with their linemen and were bringing in bigger guys. Problem was that smaller undrafted free agent linemen, in some cases 50 pounds lighter, were beating the tar out of them. It was disappointing for the coaching staff.

I mention this because I found it fascinating during this time that good players, who didn’t have the right measurements, were being rejected in favor of bigger guys. Everyone was looking for the future prototype of an offensive lineman, a 6’ 5” guy at 290 who could move like he was 215.

All of which reminds me of Alan Page who played 15 years in the NFL as a defensive tackle and is considered by many to be the greatest defensive lineman to ever play the game. Until Lawrence Taylor came along he was the only defensive player to ever win MVP. His playing weight rarely exceeded 215 and by the end of a season he was often down to 208. He was “feared” by offensive linemen who regularly outweighed him by 60 pounds.

I don’t think there’s any doubt in anyone’s mind that we have players today who at 300 pounds can move the way a 230 pounder moved back in the day. It is also assumed that a smaller lineman pushing all game on a bigger lineman will tire out sooner. Still, I wonder how many excellent linemen are automatically dismissed in the recruiting process because conventional wisdom says they have to have a certain size.

 

[LongforDodd]

Which school?

For some reason your comment took me back to Chip Kell, All American at Tennessee. He was said to have “set the standard” for modern offensive line blocking at 6’ 240 pounds.

No matter how many times we mention him I never get tired of remembering one of our best DTs ever -Rock Perdoni, at 5’11” 240 pounds.

I also remember in the early to mid 70s a story about training camp for the Atlanta Falcons. They were trying to go heavier with their linemen and were bringing in bigger guys. Problem was that smaller undrafted free agent linemen, in some cases 50 pounds lighter, were beating the tar out of them. It was disappointing for the coaching staff.

I mention this because I found it fascinating during this time that good players, who didn’t have the right measurements, were being rejected in favor of bigger guys. Everyone was looking for the future prototype of an offensive lineman, a 6’ 5” guy at 290 who could move like he was 215.

All of which reminds me of Alan Page who played 15 years in the NFL as a defensive tackle and is considered by many to be the greatest defensive lineman to ever play the game. Until Lawrence Taylor came along he was the only defensive player to ever win MVP. His playing weight rarely exceeded 215 and by the end of a season he was often down to 208. He was “feared” by offensive linemen who regularly outweighed him by 60 pounds.

I don’t think there’s any doubt in anyone’s mind that we have players today who at 300 pounds can move the way a 230 pounder moved back in the day. It is also assumed that a smaller lineman pushing all game on a bigger lineman will tire out sooner. Still, I wonder how many excellent linemen are automatically dismissed in the recruiting process because conventional wisdom says they have to have a certain size.

I remember to this day walking by Rock Perdoni after a game with FSU. I forget if I was selling programs or cokes on that day but because I was doing that I was able to get into the wash as the team was heading to the locker room. I thought what a monster of a man. Today, I am bigger than he was then.

 

[IEEEWreck]

I can think of a number of important characteristics of linemen:

• height
• weight
• strength
• quickness
• stamina
• skill

Here's my question: Assuming all other things to be equal, how important is weight? IOW, if you have two guys squaring off against each other (OL v DL), and one guy is 350 lbs and the other is 325 lbs, does the 350 guy have that much of an advantage over the 325 guy?

And my reason for asking is, if there aren't enough 5* 350 lb linemen to go around, are 325 lb guys really that much of a disadvantage? Cause we REALLY need some linemen.

I think Southern Company has a bunch that they rent out.

 

[bucknellbison31]

I think we, as a fanbase, need to recognize and accept incremental progress. For all of the valid criticisms of our offensive line, would anyone here argue that they aren't better than last year's? Of course no one would argue that, because this year's line has been significantly better. Is there still room for improvement? Certainly. But we are seeing movement in the right direction, which is what matters as we try to rebuild the program.

 

[7979]

Which school?

For some reason your comment took me back to Chip Kell, All American at Tennessee. He was said to have “set the standard” for modern offensive line blocking at 6’ 240 pounds.

No matter how many times we mention him I never get tired of remembering one of our best DTs ever -Rock Perdoni, at 5’11” 240 pounds.

I also remember in the early to mid 70s a story about training camp for the Atlanta Falcons. They were trying to go heavier with their linemen and were bringing in bigger guys. Problem was that smaller undrafted free agent linemen, in some cases 50 pounds lighter, were beating the tar out of them. It was disappointing for the coaching staff.

I mention this because I found it fascinating during this time that good players, who didn’t have the right measurements, were being rejected in favor of bigger guys. Everyone was looking for the future prototype of an offensive lineman, a 6’ 5” guy at 290 who could move like he was 215.

All of which reminds me of Alan Page who played 15 years in the NFL as a defensive tackle and is considered by many to be the greatest defensive lineman to ever play the game. Until Lawrence Taylor came along he was the only defensive player to ever win MVP. His playing weight rarely exceeded 215 and by the end of a season he was often down to 208. He was “feared” by offensive linemen who regularly outweighed him by 60 pounds.

I don’t think there’s any doubt in anyone’s mind that we have players today who at 300 pounds can move the way a 230 pounder moved back in the day. It is also assumed that a smaller lineman pushing all game on a bigger lineman will tire out sooner. Still, I wonder how many excellent linemen are automatically dismissed in the recruiting process because conventional wisdom says they have to have a certain size.

"......during this time that good players, who didn’t have the right measurements, were being rejected in favor of bigger guys...."
And it continues to this day, perhaps accelerating. The required metrics of each position have become entrenched in player evaluations. FB coaches have herd mentality. EVERBODY wants the 4.3 40 WRs, ignoring that many of these sprinters have hands of stone (we've had a couple of those, right?).
I suggest here that the 6'2-6'5 250-260 lb 17 yr old HS OLmen should be our recruiting targets. They grow to 280-290 lb Soph/JRs...and 6'3 280 athletic guys with quick feet can absolutely play in today's RPG offense.
300+lb HS OLmen rarely have to work hard to dominate their HS opponents. Why work on fundamentals when you can "lean on" the 215lb 15-16 yr old DL across from you? Nobody gets bull-rushed in CFB anymore. Pressue comes from inside stunts, and edge DE/OLBs that turn corner on 330 lb OT with leaden feet.
Blocking, particularly pass blocking, is about leverage, balance and warrior mentality.....

 

[Northeast Stinger]

"......during this time that good players, who didn’t have the right measurements, were being rejected in favor of bigger guys...."
And it continues to this day, perhaps accelerating. The required metrics of each position have become entrenched in player evaluations. FB coaches have herd mentality. EVERBODY wants the 4.3 40 WRs, ignoring that many of these sprinters have hands of stone (we've had a couple of those, right?).
I suggest here that the 6'2-6'5 250-260 lb 17 yr old HS OLmen should be our recruiting targets. They grow to 280-290 lb Soph/JRs...and 6'3 280 athletic guys with quick feet can absolutely play in today's RPG offense.
300+lb HS OLmen rarely have to work hard to dominate their HS opponents. Why work on fundamentals when you can "lean on" the 215lb 15-16 yr old DL across from you? Nobody gets bull-rushed in CFB anymore. Pressue comes from inside stunts, and edge DE/OLBs that turn corner on 330 lb OT with leaden feet.
Blocking, particularly pass blocking, is about leverage, balance and warrior mentality.....

Speaking of wide receivers, Smelter proved to me that rope end Olympic level speed, though nice to have, is probably 3rd or 4th in level of importance. Smelter was quick, which meant he could get separation on virtually any defender. Once getting a defender out of position he had just enough speed to take it to the house. Smelter also had a high degree of flexibility which enabled him to bend and contort his body when fighting for a contested pass. And, finally, what hands!

But back to linemen. We had some linemen under CPJ that many complained were too small yet they knocked the hell out of a lot of opposing linemen. In 2014 the uga radio announcer said their defensive linemen “look like they’re playing on skates.”