NIL in CBB

[Northeast Stinger]

This is laughably ignorant. There is no will to produce or improve in an environment where there are no winners or losers. This is why communism always has and always will fail. People will always do what they are incentivized to do. If the are incentivized to do nothing to achieve the same status as everyone else then they will do nothing. If they are incentivized to outperform their peers to receive greater status, then they will strive to excel beyond all others. The opportunity to transform oneself from winner to loser or to elevate one's position in a merit based system, whether that is capitalism in economics or in a non union workforce, was the driving force behind the industrial revolution, which catapulted our country beyond all others. The desire to achieve individual greatness, regardless if someone is starting out below someone else, is the force by which virtually all productivity and achievement is attained.

It’s ok to not like communism. But blind faith in capitalism can bring about its own disasters. I have to believe I can succeed but it also has to be possible for me to succeed. If the system is rigged against me then blind faith will only work for so long.

So don’t resort to straw man arguments. Lack of incentive can be true in ANY economic system where there is no chance to succeed on my own merits. Tech has lost the services of good athletes in the past because they felt shut out of the system.

My argument is that this could get much worse with NIL unless there is some way to govern it. Capitalism can fail just like communism. But the reason is the same - corruption. Or, if you will, an inefficient economic system.

So my advice would be not to get sidetracked by knee jerk reactions to people throwing out the word “communism.” Hitler was good at throwing that word around and he got millions of decent God fearing Germans to go along with him as a result. But throwing that word around rarely leads to constructive solutions.

The question is whether the current state of NCAA sports is corrupt beyond repair or whether there is some fix for it. Simply letting the “market work” right now will probably spell the end of a meaningful athletic program at Tech. You are free to disagree but that it my absolute belief at this point in history.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

This applies to teams and fans too.

The pro leagues all insist on things in their negotiations with players that lower the potential earnings for the very top players in exchange for limiting just how dominant the best teams can be. Or just things that try to explicitly help the worst teams.

It doesn’t completely prevent dynasties but it helps keeps teams around and in business.

People are already frustrated with college sports and how their teams have a harder time than in the past. If fan interest dries up, everyone loses.

Player employment + unions + collective bargaining is the tried and true way of getting regulations in place for that. The conferences are a weird wrinkle, though.

(Pro wrestling is probably more like communism - central planning and all! Other sports are more just socialism. )

I think that’s right. If my team can’t even dream of cracking the top 20 ever again I (and probably 99% of other fans) will spend my time and money elsewhere. The NFL does a relatively good job of making fans in every city feel like they have a chance. Consistent losing is usually attributed to poor management or poor coaching, not a system that is stacked against the little guy.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but in the current NCAA landscape a team like the Kansas City Chiefs would be a bottom dweller and have no hope of a championship.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Anyone who is part of sports team, professional or otherwise, would be booted from their team if they refuse to produce at their best level out of jealousy because someone is better or makes more than them. Team chemistry can turn on a variety of reason, but pay disparity is not usually one of them. Disparity in pay in sports is not something new. Babe Ruth made more than the rest of the team combined and the Yankees chemistry in the 20s and 30s was just fine. Do you really think the lowest paid Yankees are not going to try their best because Judge makes $40M a year? No, not everyone can be LeBron or Judge or Aaron Rodgers, but these are team games and everyone tries their best to maximize their own benefit regardless of what others are getting. If LeBron was making the same as the last guy on the bench, what is his incentive to play his very best? What is the incentive for the worst player to improve if he already makes the same as Lebron? Communism in sports is as dumb as communism in business.

Feels like you are missing the whole point because you are locked into defending capitalism with a sports site filled with nothing but capitalists. You might want to back up and figure out what other people are saying.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Courts are much more "where do we draw the line" then "let's extend the argument forever" in stuff like this, and they clearly haven't been drawing the line in the same place as the NCAA recently.

I'm not confident they'd overturn a sit-if-you-transfer a rule if it was reinstated, but I wouldn't be shocked if it got challenged and the challenge made it a long way or was upheld, *especially* if it was in regard to a school which didn't guarantee that the scholarship would be around for the next year. It's a similar sort of "have it both ways" dealing that the Supreme Court has been extremely skeptical of. "You won't guarantee me a scholarship here, but you will restrict my eligibility if I leave." Is that so far from "You will make money of my performance and my likeness, but you will take away my eligibility if I take money for it."?

I'd love to see it, though, because IMO the sooner the courts fully rip up the pretense of amateurism that the NCAA has pretended to have for decades, the sooner we can build a new system with newly-negotiated rules like the pro leagues. It was in the sports' media's interest to pretend that there was a truly fair, amateur playing ground for the last 50+ years; the court system has no similar profit motive to ignore how one-sided and ham-handed things have been.

Yes. The system seemed to “work” because we all bought into the illusion of amateurism. Will be really interesting to see what kind of system replaces the Titanic once it’s sunk.

 

[Steverc]

This is laughably ignorant. There is no will to produce or improve in an environment where there are no winners or losers. This is why communism always has and always will fail. People will always do what they are incentivized to do. If the are incentivized to do nothing to achieve the same status as everyone else then they will do nothing. If they are incentivized to outperform their peers to receive greater status, then they will strive to excel beyond all others. The opportunity to transform oneself from winner to loser or to elevate one's position in a merit based system, whether that is capitalism in economics or in a non union workforce, was the driving force behind the industrial revolution, which catapulted our country beyond all others. The desire to achieve individual greatness, regardless if someone is starting out below someone else, is the force by which virtually all productivity and achievement is attained.

Well said. The top performers get to play. The bottom performers get cut from the team.

 

[Steverc]

It’s ok to not like communism. But blind faith in capitalism can bring about its own disasters. I have to believe I can succeed but it also has to be possible for me to succeed. If the system is rigged against me then blind faith will only work for so long.

So don’t resort to straw man arguments. Lack of incentive can be true in ANY economic system where there is no chance to succeed on my own merits. Tech has lost the services of good athletes in the past because they felt shut out of the system.

My argument is that this could get much worse with NIL unless there is some way to govern it. Capitalism can fail just like communism. But the reason is the same - corruption. Or, if you will, an inefficient economic system.

So my advice would be not to get sidetracked by knee jerk reactions to people throwing out the word “communism.” Hitler was good at throwing that word around and he got millions of decent God fearing Germans to go along with him as a result. But throwing that word around rarely leads to constructive solutions.

The question is whether the current state of NCAA sports is corrupt beyond repair or whether there is some fix for it. Simply letting the “market work” right now will probably spell the end of a meaningful athletic program at Tech. You are free to disagree but that it my absolute belief at this point in history.

You sound like Khrushchev trying to convince Kennedy that communism is awesome.

 

[Peacone36]

You both bring up good points

Can’t imagine it could be any worse than the disaster the ungoverned approach has brought us.

LOL - "can't imagine" - really?

 

[Peacone36]

I don't think the system needs many tweaks. The one piece that annoys me is tampering. I don't know if you can take away tampering but it would be nice to reward the school that gets their player tampered with similarly to how you buy the rights to a player in soccer. That really cedes a lot of power from the student-athlete to the school though, which feels wrong as long as "student" is in the name. Letting schools pay the players directly for their rights might be the move and would effectively put us on a free market pathway (which it already is in a roundabout way right now - might as well continue removing barriers). Wonder if promotion/relegation would start to come into the fold at that point.

I'm still really interested to see if top 150 players begin matriculating to mid-majors so they can average 30+mpg as freshmen. It could hamper their development but also could land them some crazy NIL deals when they hit the transfer market.

The system needs many tweaks because they won’t make the one that makes the most sense. Flats rate appearance fees for use of NIL by the school and its support. Sell the rights to EA Sports and get the games up. Sell the rights to the school to use NIL of the team with local vendors.

It’s so simple. And everyone gets to “go on a date” and “buy a pizza” (Fab Five reference) but they just unleashed a free market system like that’s the answer.

 

[Root4GT]

Basketball is a team sport. The bench warmers are just as important a contributor as the starters. One of their parts is to
compete hard in practice and weight room so they make the starters better. I think any nil money should be distributed evenly to everyone on the team, otherwise, it is a double standard to call it a team effort.

In what Capitalist World do warm bodies get the same compensation as significant contributors. Bench warmers can be replaced any day of the week. All Conference players are the guys who actually cause you to win more than lose. Basic stuff here. Try replacing a first team All Conference player who left via the Portal with a bench warmer.

 

[Root4GT]

The Rays are the best at what they do, which is maximizing the value of the resources in their organization. The Yankees are one of the worst. As a Yankees fan, I wish they would move away from trying to buy championships and move to model more like the Rays where they consider how they can maximize the return of their assets, even if that means letting some potential stars go. Then, they could then pay Judge $40M but not be saddled with a bunch of bad contracts like they have with Stanton, Hicks, Donaldson, etc.

I have no use for the Yankees. However their great run with Jeter and the core 4 came from developing their core players and adding pieces as needed.

It’s hard to do and the Rays as you say are the best at doing it over time. Basically they have nearly everything against them yet they are consistently good in a tough division. Respect.

 

[Jack]

In what Capitalist World do warm bodies get the same compensation as significant contributors. Bench warmers can be replaced any day of the week. All Conference players are the guys who actually cause you to win more than lose. Basic stuff here. Try replacing a first team All Conference player who left via the Portal with a bench warmer.

I don’t think you get it

 

[Northeast Stinger]

You sound like Khrushchev trying to convince Kennedy that communism is awesome.

Had your hearing checked lately

 

[Northeast Stinger]

The system needs many tweaks because they won’t make the one that makes the most sense. Flats rate appearance fees for use of NIL by the school and its support. Sell the rights to EA Sports and get the games up. Sell the rights to the school to use NIL of the team with local vendors.

It’s so simple. And everyone gets to “go on a date” and “buy a pizza” (Fab Five reference) but they just unleashed a free market system like that’s the answer.

I think that starts to get us there.

I’ll be the first to confess I don’t have an answer. Somehow we need a system that protects the student athlete and allows them, within reason, to market their talents. But somehow we have to do that while keeping unscrupulous money men in check. At the same time, if some schools already have more start up capital than others, the “others” will always be playing catch up but will never quite get there.

And if it’s just a free market system there is no way academic schools like Tech will ever catch up. This has been a challenge for Tech for decades but now that the system has totally let the genie out of the bottle the challenges for Tech in the past will seem like mole hills compared to the Himalayas.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

Feels like you are missing the whole point because you are locked into defending capitalism with a sports site filled with nothing but capitalists. You might want to back up and figure out what other people are saying.

Your exact words were that capitalism, with a few winners and a lot of losers, results in lack of production in the long run, ergo: capitalism is bad and communism is good. History shows that your premise on capitalism's effect on production is not only blatantly false, but the complete opposite of the truth. I have been to several communist countries and seen the lack of production that communism derives when there are no winners and losers.

Applying it to sports makes it equally incorrect. The desire to enrich oneself, to maximize one's individual benefit, even if that is delayed in the immediate term, is what drives individuals to perform at their very best. Communal workforces are the least productive and the least innovative. Pay disparity (few winners and lots of losers) is not the reason for lack of production for the losers (lower paid athletes). It is almost always the lack of opportunity to succeed or poor management. Everything you said is demonstrably false.

 

[ESPNjacket]

These arguments are misinformed. Pro sports aren't governments. The NFL is a business. The franchises are just that. The business makes rules for the franchises, including how and where they interact and compete. How the rules are adopted is defined by a league defined system.

Compensation is governed by a collective bargaining agreement that doesn't look anything like most collective bargaining agreements. There are minimum salaries in it because, unlike most businesses, players trying to make it into the league would play for nothing, or close to it, for chance to make it big. If you doubt this, take a look at the XFL or USFL.

None of this has anything to do with socialism or communism.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Your exact words were that capitalism, with a few winners and a lot of losers, results in lack of production in the long run, ergo: capitalism is bad and communism is good. History shows that your premise on capitalism's effect on production is not only blatantly false, but the complete opposite of the truth. I have been to several communist countries and seen the lack of production that communism derives when there are no winners and losers.

Applying it to sports makes it equally incorrect. The desire to enrich oneself, to maximize one's individual benefit, even if that is delayed in the immediate term, is what drives individuals to perform at their very best. Communal workforces are the least productive and the least innovative. Pay disparity (few winners and lots of losers) is not the reason for lack of production for the losers (lower paid athletes). It is almost always the lack of opportunity to succeed or poor management. Everything you said is demonstrably false.

I didn’t even read your whole post because even after “quoting me” you completely misread the quote. So your whole post is based on a straw argument.

You need to get over the idea that I was offering a blanket criticism of all forms of capitalism. If you do that then we can have a conversation. Till then you will just be stuck in your own head.

I think capitalism, when it is working, offers the best of all possible worlds. I am a very happy capitalist.

But I also believe it can get skewed by unsavory influences and become just as oppressive for the little guy as any system. If you disagree then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Now, with regard to sports, it seems you are happy with the current arrangement. More power to you. I do not think the current arrangement offers the best of all possible worlds. Again, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Root4GT]

I don’t think you get it

I don’t think you get it

I actually think view is both naive and out of touch with reality. Greater talent alway has and always will get some form of preferential treatment on sports teams at every level.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I actually think view is both naive and out of touch with reality. Greater talent alway has and always will get some form of preferential treatment on sports teams at every level.

Was he saying greater talent DOESN’T get preferential treatment?

 

[Root4GT]

Was he saying greater talent DOESN’T get preferential treatment?

They do get preferential treatment to some degree at all levels of sports.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

They do get preferential treatment to some degree at all levels of sports.

Who disagrees with that?