New Season

orientalnc

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This season will test Pastner’s adaptability to coach a deeper rotation. I hope he opens his perspective on it and executes on it. He has been clear he likes a shorter bench, doesn’t know how Hamilton/FSU can effectively platoon like they do; no easy task. However with our roster depth, Pastner owes it to these guys to adapt and consistently use the strength of an 8 man rotation, at times 9, and then in select meaningful games, even 10.
This would engage players, back up his “5star development” mantra, and likely help keep players fresher and hopefully decrease chances of injury.
Is this really Pastner's perspective?

I think this debate is missing an important element. Didenko, Meka, and Maxwell were the bottom three on our roster(10-12; we only had 12 on scholarship) in ability to contribute. I would argue that Pastner played everyone he had any reason to play. He played Howard (#8) in 19 games and Rodney had moments where he contributed on offense, but his fouls limited his minutes. Saba (#9) was simply overwhelmed at times.

The roster looks deeper this year, so he should have more confidence to open up the minutes allowed to non-starters. It is also likely that our #5 rotation will include all three of Howard, Meka, and Saba, and I will not be surprised to see Moore and Usher in that spot at times. The real scrap for minutes will be with the new kids in the back court. You can only have five guys in the game at a time and hot hands (or defensive play) and matchups will be the most important factors for players logging minutes.
 

YlJacket

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I am countering this by asking who should have played in 2020-21 but did not? Rodney Howard was 8th on the team in minutes and Saba was 9th. Do you think either of them deserved more minutes based on how well they played? Meka and Maxwell were both essentially unavailable. No one else was going to see the floor in a competitive game.

Oh, based on the data, if Didenko had played every game we would have been undefeated. So there, I concede the point.
My point is for this year. Not last year.
 

orientalnc

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Is this really Pastner's perspective?

I think this debate is missing an important element. Didenko, Meka, and Maxwell were the bottom three on our roster(10-12; we only had 12 on scholarship) in ability to contribute. I would argue that Pastner played everyone he had any reason to play. He played Howard (#8) in 19 games and Rodney had moments where he contributed on offense, but his fouls limited his minutes. Saba (#9) was simply overwhelmed at times.

The roster looks deeper this year, so he should have more confidence to open up the minutes allowed to non-starters. It is also likely that our #5 rotation will include all three of Howard, Meka, and Saba, and I will not be surprised to see Moore and Usher in that spot at times. The real scrap for minutes will be with the new kids in the back court. You can only have five guys in the game at a time and hot hands (or defensive play) and matchups will be the most important factors for players logging minutes.

I think KQ is reading my posts.

 

MtnWasp

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I hope he likes them because that is an important class. There are 8 players in the last two classes when you include Hill and Smith. This is the foundation of the next wave. We need to see indications this season that this set of players will be ready to assume prime time roles moving forward. Otherwise we are looking at a substantial rebuild.
 

alagold

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WE have enough talent and depth at the 1-4 spot to be competitive with most.The key to the season if 5 spot is competent ,.If not offensively but at least defensively. If not ,we will get killed on rebounding AND interior scoring probably..
 

Fatmike91

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WE have enough talent and depth at the 1-4 spot to be competitive with most.The key to the season if 5 spot is competent ,.If not offensively but at least defensively. If not ,we will get killed on rebounding AND interior scoring probably..

I'm not that worried about that. History says Reveno will develop the bigs.

Deebo reminds me of Dennis Scott.

/
 

OG-T

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Is this really Pastner's perspective?

I think this debate is missing an important element. Didenko, Meka, and Maxwell were the bottom three on our roster(10-12; we only had 12 on scholarship) in ability to contribute. I would argue that Pastner played everyone he had any reason to play. He played Howard (#8) in 19 games and Rodney had moments where he contributed on offense, but his fouls limited his minutes. Saba (#9) was simply overwhelmed at times.

The roster looks deeper this year, so he should have more confidence to open up the minutes allowed to non-starters. It is also likely that our #5 rotation will include all three of Howard, Meka, and Saba, and I will not be surprised to see Moore and Usher in that spot at times. The real scrap for minutes will be with the new kids in the back court. You can only have five guys in the game at a time and hot hands (or defensive play) and matchups will be the most important factors for players logging minutes.
Def Pastner’s perspective; I asked him on his radio show. He said he doesn’t know how Hamilton does it. He likes playing a short bench; I think he at the very least has to challenge that pre-existing perspective. He likely has depth to expand rotation.
 

orientalnc

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Def Pastner’s perspective; I asked him on his radio show. He said he doesn’t know how Hamilton does it. He likes playing a short bench; I think he at the very least has to challenge that pre-existing perspective. He likely has depth to expand rotation.
I watched a lot of FSU games last year and the way Hamilton does it (which I am certain Pastner understands) is that he does not have a severe drop off in talent when his 8, 9, 10 guys are on the court. I want to see how the lower part of our bench performs before saying Pastner needs to go deeper.
 

slugboy

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I watched a lot of FSU games last year and the way Hamilton does it (which I am certain Pastner understands) is that he does not have a severe drop off in talent when his 8, 9, 10 guys are on the court. I want to see how the lower part of our bench performs before saying Pastner needs to go deeper.
Is that partially self-fulfilling? Hamilton can recruit and develop a deeper bench because more players get playing time?
Hamilton plays an unusually deep lineup for any coach outside of a rec league
 

orientalnc

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Is that partially self-fulfilling? Hamilton can recruit and develop a deeper bench because more players get playing time?
That is a good point.

It looks like Pastner has recruited four young guys who can all play right away. I want to see it before I start harping for Pastner to play a deeper bench. Also, we hear that Howard and Saba have improved a lot over the summer. That's good, because they were not playing well enough last year to get more time than Pastner gave them. Personally, I have not seen Meka play, so I have no idea what a healthy version of him can do. I saw Maxwell in HS, but the ACC is quite different and he has not been healthy enough to play.

Let's see how it evolves as the season begins. My guess is that some of these guys will rise above the others and get a lot of minutes. Others, not so many. Pastner is no fool. But, he is also not the tooth fairy. Players earn PT. It is not a gift.
 

orientalnc

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This whole debate about minutes is a bigger deal for college players than the public may realize. It was for me because I was not getting the minutes I thought I deserved given how hard I worked in practice. It is also a big deal for guys like Jose who never want to sit. Wright, Alvarado, and Devoe all averaged over 35 minutes per game. Usher averaged almost 30. No one on the FSU roster played that many minutes. For every minute those guys were on the bench I bet they had foul trouble or a minor injury that needed attention. They did not want to come out and their willingness (and ability) to give that effort with little rest convinced Pastner they were his best chance to win.

My coach sat with me in his office and explained why I was not playing more. He told me what I needed to do and I certainly tried. The bottom line was that I simply did not have the ability or the physical strength to play more minutes at the college level. Pastner may have to have that kind of conversation with some of his guys. We'll see.

He also might start playing ten guys.
 
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Connell62

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WE have enough talent and depth at the 1-4 spot to be competitive with most.The key to the season if 5 spot is competent ,.If not offensively but at least defensively. If not ,we will get killed on rebounding AND interior scoring probably..
Like Pastner said in his recent presser, the 5 spot can be handled one of two ways. We have one guy step up and take the spot, or we have three guys who over the course of the game all contribute. If we can get 12-14 points, 8-10 rebounds, and a couple of blocks from the 2-3 man rotation at C, I'll take it.

The thing that everyone seems to be overlooking in this debate is defense. I agree with coach that the biggest thing that we will be lacking at the 4/5 position is rim protection. Since he got here, CJP has had an eraser at the 5. I think that he stated that in each of his five seasons at GT, our C has been be all-conference defensive team. This is the first year that I do not see that happening.

Aside from Meka, no one really plays above the rim, and Jordan still needs time to develop.
 

Jacketman99

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It usually takes a little longer for freshmen to be effective on the defensive end. Unless those guys pick it up pretty quickly they may not get as many minutes as we think, at least initially.
 

YlJacket

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Like Pastner said in his recent presser, the 5 spot can be handled one of two ways. We have one guy step up and take the spot, or we have three guys who over the course of the game all contribute. If we can get 12-14 points, 8-10 rebounds, and a couple of blocks from the 2-3 man rotation at C, I'll take it.

The thing that everyone seems to be overlooking in this debate is defense. I agree with coach that the biggest thing that we will be lacking at the 4/5 position is rim protection. Since he got here, CJP has had an eraser at the 5. I think that he stated that in each of his five seasons at GT, our C has been be all-conference defensive team. This is the first year that I do not see that happening.

Aside from Meka, no one really plays above the rim, and Jordan still needs time to develop.

I agree about the 5 spot in comparison to prior years. Howard is more a banger/rebounder who has had foul trouble and Saba still hasn't found his defensive legs. But what we do have is an athletic bunch of wings plus an above average (not Jose level) PG on D. So the question is how do you put that group together for as solid a defensive team as you can. And how much do you allocate playing time based on defense?

My personal opinion is we could be a man team if we play Moore at the 3 and attempt to stay in front of the perimeter players lessening the need for the eraser. We should be athletic enough to do that. But it would expose Howard to playing the post man to man which was a foul problem last year. That is one option but it means we are trying to defend our way to wins as Moore has not been a threat on the offensive end (hope that has changed). And I would be surprised (pleasantly so) if we can play man with both Howard and a freshman (Coleman) at the 3.

That is why I expect us to be primarily a zone team to start - both to hide Howard and allow the young (hopefully scoring) wings to get playing time. I think it is the easiest way to allow the 3 bigs to survive and get the 12/8/2 combo stats you and I are looking for. Also helps the young wings. And underneath it all, as I said above, I don't believe we can go all defense with the veterans and win in the ACC. Even if we get back to the defensive efficiency levels we had before, we were not winning consistently. We have to be balanced - look for scoring to replace what we lost and be good enough defensively.
 

orientalnc

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I agree about the 5 spot in comparison to prior years. Howard is more a banger/rebounder who has had foul trouble and Saba still hasn't found his defensive legs. But what we do have is an athletic bunch of wings plus an above average (not Jose level) PG on D. So the question is how do you put that group together for as solid a defensive team as you can. And how much do you allocate playing time based on defense?

My personal opinion is we could be a man team if we play Moore at the 3 and attempt to stay in front of the perimeter players lessening the need for the eraser. We should be athletic enough to do that. But it would expose Howard to playing the post man to man which was a foul problem last year. That is one option but it means we are trying to defend our way to wins as Moore has not been a threat on the offensive end (hope that has changed). And I would be surprised (pleasantly so) if we can play man with both Howard and a freshman (Coleman) at the 3.

That is why I expect us to be primarily a zone team to start - both to hide Howard and allow the young (hopefully scoring) wings to get playing time. I think it is the easiest way to allow the 3 bigs to survive and get the 12/8/2 combo stats you and I are looking for. Also helps the young wings. And underneath it all, as I said above, I don't believe we can go all defense with the veterans and win in the ACC. Even if we get back to the defensive efficiency levels we had before, we were not winning consistently. We have to be balanced - look for scoring to replace what we lost and be good enough defensively.
It's not like playing zone is something just anyone can do, but playing man is an elite skill. Having played zone at the collegiate level I can attest to the difficulty. And, Pastner's hybrid zone is the thing that frequently keeps decent players off the floor. And, allowed Moore to play in spite of his offensive shortcomings.
 

OG-T

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I watched a lot of FSU games last year and the way Hamilton does it (which I am certain Pastner understands) is that he does not have a severe drop off in talent when his 8, 9, 10 guys are on the court. I want to see how the lower part of our bench performs before saying Pastner needs to go deeper.
My money is on this is the year - we have the talent. Sure, some freshman mistakes, but let a kid play through some things. 5 star development, I’d like to see Coach develop his ability to manage a slightly deeper bench. We’ll see. Any way to get Ws I’m down for.
 

Connell62

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I agree about the 5 spot in comparison to prior years. Howard is more a banger/rebounder who has had foul trouble and Saba still hasn't found his defensive legs. But what we do have is an athletic bunch of wings plus an above average (not Jose level) PG on D. So the question is how do you put that group together for as solid a defensive team as you can. And how much do you allocate playing time based on defense?

My personal opinion is we could be a man team if we play Moore at the 3 and attempt to stay in front of the perimeter players lessening the need for the eraser. We should be athletic enough to do that. But it would expose Howard to playing the post man to man which was a foul problem last year. That is one option but it means we are trying to defend our way to wins as Moore has not been a threat on the offensive end (hope that has changed). And I would be surprised (pleasantly so) if we can play man with both Howard and a freshman (Coleman) at the 3.

That is why I expect us to be primarily a zone team to start - both to hide Howard and allow the young (hopefully scoring) wings to get playing time. I think it is the easiest way to allow the 3 bigs to survive and get the 12/8/2 combo stats you and I are looking for. Also helps the young wings. And underneath it all, as I said above, I don't believe we can go all defense with the veterans and win in the ACC. Even if we get back to the defensive efficiency levels we had before, we were not winning consistently. We have to be balanced - look for scoring to replace what we lost and be good enough defensively.
Couldn't agree more.. I think that we will play a ton of zone this year. For many of the reasons you mention, but also due to the fact that we just don't have a legitimate shot blocker.

Throwing multiple defensive looks at the other team is part of CJP's philosophy, so I think that we will see him stick with whatever is working, but I totally agree that early on, zone will be our base D.

Maybe more of a traditional zone than a 1-3-1 look, but I expect to see some of it all.
 

YlJacket

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Maybe more of a traditional zone than a 1-3-1 look, but I expect to see some of it all.

Just musing on my part - but with long athletic wings (Usher and say Coleman) and DeVoe at the top (6'5") I would look at trapping hard out of the 1-3-1 look. The upside is it would focus the defense on the perimeter and hopefully allow us to get out and run. The downside being if the trap breaks down, you exposed the 5 spot to cleaning up the mess.

If we go the Syracuse route (2-3) then it does protect the 5 spot more than a trapping zone - recognizing that Mecca is really the only big we have that is similar to what Syracuse normally puts out at the 5 in the 2-3. I'll be curious to see how Pastner approaches this and agree we will see multiple looks.
 

slugboy

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We have had an entire off season to get any or all of 3+ big men options to be able to handle offensive and defensive roles. Hopefully, we've figured out something--possibly multiple somethings--that work for their abilities and the team needs
 
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