My way too early, possibly problematic look at potential GT Hoops roster management

Peacone36

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,528
Location
Maine
I still like college basketball but it isn't as good as it was and the reason is less experience at the collegiate level. I don't think this is an unusual or controversial take.

Since we're already off topic by quite a bit, it used to be quite popular to blame AAU basketball for all kinds of alleged offenses of the modern player. I haven't heard much of that lately.
I think it’s continuity. It is very difficult to root for a team of mercs. Take a player like Quentin Stephens. We watched him grow and become a very productive player, a kid (man) the fan base could root for. Not sure you’re going to see that much anymore and that’s a shame
 
Last edited:

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
9,022
Location
North Shore, Chicago
Player mobility must reflect a mindset that places no value on rootedness/affiliation/kinship.

Fans of the previous generations can't relate to this mindset, and they lament.

Is there a generation coming up behind us that finds this all exciting, or do all fans think this sucks? Just when the players start chasing the money is when the money is going to dry up? Wouldn't that be ironic!
Is it a reflection of the gig economy and the shift towards flexibility in movement in all aspects of our society now?
 

MtnWasp

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,053
Since we're already off topic by quite a bit, it used to be quite popular to blame AAU basketball for all kinds of alleged offenses of the modern player. I haven't heard much of that lately.
The rise of the AAU culture certainly engendered the values of self-promotion. I think it represents a big step towards where we are now.

I think the FBI investigation into the AAU-shoe company-college axis shook-up that culture and I wonder if the same money that ran through there is still there.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,111
Player mobility must reflect a mindset that places no value on rootedness/affiliation/kinship.

Fans of the previous generations can't relate to this mindset, and they lament.

Is there a generation coming up behind us that finds this all exciting, or do all fans think this sucks? Just when the players start chasing the money is when the money is going to dry up? Wouldn't that be ironic!
Generations coming up have nothing to compare it to, so…..
The games are still interesting to watch. I still enjoy the contests, especially the conference games.

Following the "off season" is different. The "watching the sausage get made" analogy becomes more applicable as time goes by. I think it is actually worse in football right now.

I wonder how much of it is information overload. Prior to the internet and broadband information flows, off season and recruiting information was scant. There was great sense of anticipation about getting any tidbit of information. There was the ACC Poop Sheet, Barry Jacobs Yearbook. For the really hard core, we could subscribe to Bob Gibbons Blue Ribbon report for like 4 little newletters in a year.

While getting our hunger for information sated in this broadband era satisfies the hunger for fast and real time information, it has not enhanced the enjoyment of the sport. The more information we get, the more chaotic it all seems.

Information flows like water, it has a velocity and volume. And just like a flooded river, the high volume and velocity of information flow results in turbulence: the chaos of white water. Could chaotic voluminous information flows actually be the cause of social chaos?
Interesting thought. I don’t know. Information used to be curated to some extent. Professionals did in depth research and separated wheat from chaff. In this age of “do your own research” the amount of garbage to sort through seems deeper and deeper.

But I also suspect market forces without sufficient regulations are creating an extra level of turmoil. It not only feels worse now, it is worse.
 

MtnWasp

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,053
Is it a reflection of the gig economy and the shift towards flexibility in movement in all aspects of our society now?
I certainly agree that what is going on with the revenue sports in college athletics is a reflection of a broader social context. Trickle down Globalism.
 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,714
Is it a reflection of the gig economy and the shift towards flexibility in movement in all aspects of our society now?
There might be parallels, but i think college sports are an unusual market. No employment contracts, no direct pay (all indirect), large volumes of money in some situations. If Uber loses a driver to Lyft, no one cares. If LSU loses a QB to Penn State, people do care.
 

ESPNjacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,531
The rise of the AAU culture certainly engendered the values of self-promotion. I think it represents a big step towards where we are now.

I think the FBI investigation into the AAU-shoe company-college axis shook-up that culture and I wonder if the same money that ran through there is still there.
That's the narrative about AAU. I don't know if there is much to it. I know a lot of people who have kids play AAU ball and never heard anything like it from them.

The one thing it really changed is how colleges scout players.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
9,022
Location
North Shore, Chicago
There might be parallels, but i think college sports are an unusual market. No employment contracts, no direct pay (all indirect), large volumes of money in some situations. If Uber loses a driver to Lyft, no one cares. If LSU loses a QB to Penn State, people do care.
I was just thinking about the mindset of the individuals, not the people watching or the establishment. It was really just a thought that popped into my head when I read the post I responded to.
 

MtnWasp

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,053
I don’t know. Information used to be curated to some extent. Professionals did in depth research and separated wheat from chaff. In this age of “do your own research” the amount of garbage to sort through seems deeper and deeper.
This is a bit of a rabbit hole, but what the hay...

We base every decision we make on information. There are two kinds of information:
1. Our direct sensory perception / our direct experience. This is what we know.
2. information relayed from other sources. This is what we believe.

Before the broadband era, gathering information and then disseminating it was expensive. That created a culture of professionals to curate the information for the sake of social and economic efficiency. But there was far less information to curate and there was more time to do it because the information rates were way, way slower. There was also a deep collective faith in the legitimacy of the democratic principles of participatory governance, and open access to sound information is the bedrock of such systems. Information was sacred.

Now information is cheap to generate and transmit. Almost anyone can disseminate information globally and instantaneously. Unfiltered information, both good or bad, can go "viral" at any time. Verification of real vs. manufactured information cannot be done at a rate (if at all) that matches the rate of flow of the information. This is chaos.

And there is too much information, even good information, even important information, for any person to assimilate. Too much even for an institution to have a practical handle on it. Way too much, way too fast. The current way to handle the deluge is to stick-it into computer models and get a statistical summary of it, but this lacks human judgment and wisdom. It is amoral. The current religion of Scientism places faith in the models because they are "unbiased."

The interface of statistical algorithmic based decisions with a society of human beings results in chaotic interfaces. Enormous technological based bureaucracies are in fact in-human (and they feel in-human). The social breakdowns we are seeing is this dynamic in action. The cause and effect sequence is counter-intuitive: it is the volume and speed of information that has resulted in turbulent information flow which is the root cause of social chaos. It is a force beyond the capacity of human wisdom. Globalists are jazzed anyway because they never had faith in human wisdom to begin with. Those who value self-determination are freaking in the oncoming tidal wave of totalitarianism.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,111
This is a bit of a rabbit hole, but what the hay...

We base every decision we make on information. There are two kinds of information:
1. Our direct sensory perception / our direct experience. This is what we know.
2. information relayed from other sources. This is what we believe.

Before the broadband era, gathering information and then disseminating it was expensive. That created a culture of professionals to curate the information for the sake of social and economic efficiency. But there was far less information to curate and there was more time to do it because the information rates were way, way slower. There was also a deep collective faith in the legitimacy of the democratic principles of participatory governance, and open access to sound information is the bedrock of such systems. Information was sacred.

Now information is cheap to generate and transmit. Almost anyone can disseminate information globally and instantaneously. Unfiltered information, both good or bad, can go "viral" at any time. Verification of real vs. manufactured information cannot be done at a rate (if at all) that matches the rate of flow of the information. This is chaos.

And there is too much information, even good information, even important information, for any person to assimilate. Too much even for an institution to have a practical handle on it. Way too much, way too fast. The current way to handle the deluge is to stick-it into computer models and get a statistical summary of it, but this lacks human judgment and wisdom. It is amoral. The current religion of Scientism places faith in the models because they are "unbiased."

The interface of statistical algorithmic based decisions with a society of human beings results in chaotic interfaces. Enormous technological based bureaucracies are in fact in-human (and they feel in-human). The social breakdowns we are seeing is this dynamic in action. The cause and effect sequence is counter-intuitive: it is the volume and speed of information that has resulted in turbulent information flow which is the root cause of social chaos. It is a force beyond the capacity of human wisdom. Globalists are jazzed anyway because they never had faith in human wisdom to begin with. Those who value self-determination are freaking in the oncoming tidal wave of totalitarianism.
I know a guy who knows a guy who agrees with you.
 

57jacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,582
This is a bit of a rabbit hole, but what the hay...

We base every decision we make on information. There are two kinds of information:
1. Our direct sensory perception / our direct experience. This is what we know.
2. information relayed from other sources. This is what we believe.

Before the broadband era, gathering information and then disseminating it was expensive. That created a culture of professionals to curate the information for the sake of social and economic efficiency. But there was far less information to curate and there was more time to do it because the information rates were way, way slower. There was also a deep collective faith in the legitimacy of the democratic principles of participatory governance, and open access to sound information is the bedrock of such systems. Information was sacred.

Now information is cheap to generate and transmit. Almost anyone can disseminate information globally and instantaneously. Unfiltered information, both good or bad, can go "viral" at any time. Verification of real vs. manufactured information cannot be done at a rate (if at all) that matches the rate of flow of the information. This is chaos.

And there is too much information, even good information, even important information, for any person to assimilate. Too much even for an institution to have a practical handle on it. Way too much, way too fast. The current way to handle the deluge is to stick-it into computer models and get a statistical summary of it, but this lacks human judgment and wisdom. It is amoral. The current religion of Scientism places faith in the models because they are "unbiased."

The interface of statistical algorithmic based decisions with a society of human beings results in chaotic interfaces. Enormous technological based bureaucracies are in fact in-human (and they feel in-human). The social breakdowns we are seeing is this dynamic in action. The cause and effect sequence is counter-intuitive: it is the volume and speed of information that has resulted in turbulent information flow which is the root cause of social chaos. It is a force beyond the capacity of human wisdom. Globalists are jazzed anyway because they never had faith in human wisdom to begin with. Those who value self-determination are freaking in the oncoming tidal wave of totalitarianism.
This is really a great post. Few people can express it as well as you MtnWasp. Thanks
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,299
Players overall are more athletic and skilled (handle / shooting) than they were in the 80's.

Agree that players who stay 4/5 or Covid 6 years are more physically developed than one and done guys but IMHO that isn't the biggest issue.

The much more widespread ability to shoot from beyond the 3 point line combined with more widespread ability to handle the ball has led to the analytics driven focus on 3 point shots or layups. Analytics is simply picking up on a reasonably widespread ability to make 30-35% or more of the 3 point shots. That leads to playing for the 3 point shot and spreading the floor to allow players to drive in space - the 4 and 5 out style offenses we have now. It is simply a much different game than it was in the 80's - and that is before any of the major changes in officiating come into play - with a caveat that every now and then I think I am watching an old Big East game even now.

The 80's were focused on mid range shots and layups with the 3 being a less utilized game changer shot generally from one or two players. So scoring came from all 3 levels and necessitated a lot of "plays" to free players for shots in the 15-18 foot range or a backcut to the basket. Now it is spacing and shooting with a high ball screen or zoom action but focused on the 3 point line. Midrange is generally frowned upon. I enjoyed the 80's game more than I do today - especially the ACC of the 80's versus the ACC of today - but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the skill today's players bring.

As for NIL and open portal - Get off my lawn :mad:
The NCAA adopted the 3 point shot for the 1986-87 season so most of the 1980s was played without the 3 point shot. The ACC did experiment with it one season before the NCAA adopted the 3 point shot.
 

cpf2001

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,378
I was just thinking about the mindset of the individuals, not the people watching or the establishment. It was really just a thought that popped into my head when I read the post I responded to.
I think it’s more Wall Street - mercenary MBAs, traders, corporate raiders - get the best for you short-term every step of the way, no patience for the long term or the team. A sort of extreme financial libertarianism, eff you, got mine.

The gig economy is happening to interchangeable workers, nobody is out there throwing money at a better TV installer or taxi driver.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
9,022
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I think it’s more Wall Street - mercenary MBAs, traders, corporate raiders - get the best for you short-term every step of the way, no patience for the long term or the team. A sort of extreme financial libertarianism, eff you, got mine.

The gig economy is happening to interchangeable workers, nobody is out there throwing money at a better TV installer or taxi driver.
I was thinking about the willingness to move from opportunity to opportunity to opportunity as opposed to staying in one place for a while. Just the general mindset of the younger generations. I see your point.
 

cpf2001

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,378
I was thinking about the willingness to move from opportunity to opportunity to opportunity as opposed to staying in one place for a while. Just the general mindset of the younger generations. I see your point.
Ah yeah it’s definitely made it across society. If you’re an engineer in your twenties now, you can stay for a 3% raise or job hop for a 10%+ one. Or play the politics game and try to climb the ladder, but not everyone wins in that game.

The folks passing out the money make it real hard to be loyal and a team player.

Edit: economically in business that might not even be bad: if you aren’t generating the ROI that someone else is, it makes sense that the workers move there. For a team sport with a league? It’s destructive.
 

RyanS12

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,084
Location
Flint Michigan
90s without question. I LOVED Mike Patrick calling ACC games. Halston Lane against UK? No, UNC. Crap i cant remember. Shaun Fein baseline leaner against UK. Tony MF***inv Akins. The Comeback against Wisconsin.that may have been 2001 actually.

Anderson, Marbury, Harpring oh my…
Speaking of the 90’s, personally, I think the 1990 NCAAT was the best collection of overall talent and teams I have seen in one tournament. It was absolutely loaded! I’m sure there are others that are/were just as good or better but in my opinion, that year was the best.
 
Top