Just a reminder - GT academics for athletes

Animal02

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To be honest, I agree with much of this, with one caveat. Many schools lie to their prospects telling them exactly what they want to hear about their NFL chances and steer them into worthless degree paths created for guys who don't belong in college. Now that's exploitation. Granted, the prospects aren't forced to take their offer, but they are not prepared for this decision and the colleges take advantage of that.

I agree completely.....when I was recruited.....just about everyone tried to steer me into a "easy" degree so I could play football......i.e. football was more important than career choice.
 

vamosjackets

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When the American public thought there was something wrong with our public education system, politicians were pressured into making some regulations. It was found that many high schools were graduating people who couldn't do elementary level work ... not all high school diplomas are created equal (DUH?). So, they came up with the High School Graduation Test. In Georgia, all students have to make a minimum score on this test in all subjects in order to earn a high school diploma as well as passing the requisite classes. Colleges however seem to have been left unaccountable in this regard. One solution to all this would be a College Graduation Test. In other words, our country would be saying, "Anyone who earns what is to be labeled as a college diploma (or Bachelor's Degree), should meet these minimum standards as proven by this standardized test." Whoa nelly, wouldn't that be a kick in the balls for the factories! They would actually have to educate their students. Imagine that craziness.
 

Animal02

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I'm not trying to advocate paying players.

I don't advocate paying them salaries......but I don't think a small stipend to cover incidental things (beer, pizza, or the emergency flight home) Between required practices, class time, studying, and the expected "non required" training, they really cannot hold jobs.....unless it is the "wink wink" watch the roof of the gym to make sure it doesn't leak. A few hundred dollars a month might take some of the pressure of kids taking handouts from boosters.....won't eliminate it, but my put a dent in it.
 

Animal02

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When the American public thought there was something wrong with our public education system, politicians were pressured into making some regulations. It was found that many high schools were graduating people who couldn't do elementary level work ... not all high school diplomas are created equal (DUH?). So, they came up with the High School Graduation Test. In Georgia, all students have to make a minimum score on this test in all subjects in order to earn a high school diploma as well as passing the requisite classes. Colleges however seem to have been left unaccountable in this regard. One solution to all this would be a College Graduation Test. In other words, our country would be saying, "Anyone who earns what is to be labeled as a college diploma (or Bachelor's Degree), should meet these minimum standards as proven by this standardized test." Whoa nelly, wouldn't that be a kick in the balls for the factories! They would actually have to educate their students. Imagine that craziness.

What happened to the "Regent's Test" that everyone was required to take in Ga.?
 

vamosjackets

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I don't advocate paying them salaries......but I don't think a small stipend to cover incidental things (beer, pizza, or the emergency flight home) Between required practices, class time, studying, and the expected "non required" training, they really cannot hold jobs.....unless it is the "wink wink" watch the roof of the gym to make sure it doesn't leak. A few hundred dollars a month might take some of the pressure of kids taking handouts from boosters.....won't eliminate it, but my put a dent in it.
They don't need any extra money. They already get everything paid for. They get lots of clothes, food, and transportation paid for. They are dressed better, eat better, and live better than the vast majority of the normal student population. Their salary is they get their whole life (and a great quality of one) paid for PLUS their education paid for. That's a pretty huge salary.
 

Rodney Kent

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vamosjacket & dressedcheese: Yes, you have coaches that lie to their recruits, but you have athletes that will promise to attend a given school and change their mind at the last minute, causing a school to miss out on another recruit. However, over the long run, it is the athlete getting all the benefits. He can even promise a coach he is coming to his school only to change his mind, and there is nothing that can be done about it by the school or coach.

If an athlete buys into false advertising by a coach, it is no different than anyone else making a decision or purchase. It is buyer beware, make sure you know what you are getting. A prospect who chooses Tech knows it is a good education and good value. Those that go to a school that promises an education, but finds the school only cares about the recruits football results, they are at fault for buying into lies instead of a school that has a good reputation. The burden must belong to the student athlete and his family to find out the colleges that give the best education. The real truth of this matter, is the recruit really doesn't cares about the education, he is only looking at future millions in his mind by playing pro football. The burden still belongs to the recruit to make the right choice.

No recruit is forced to go to a school that does not make them pass. Even then, the recruit can still get a good education if he wants it. Again, the student who does not get an education while playing football, has no one to blame but his own negligence to his studies.
 

AlabamaBuzz

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I am a big advocate of minor leagues...just don't think the kids who have no desire to get a college education should have to go to college so they can play football until they are draft eligible.

It should be student-athlete, but for many, it is athlete-student, and the student part is really not significant, as can be seen in the JP transcript....
 

Animal02

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I am a big advocate of minor leagues...just don't think the kids who have no desire to get a college education should have to go to college so they can play football until they are draft eligible.

It should be student-athlete, but for many, it is athlete-student, and the student part is really not significant, as can be seen in the JP transcript....

There is no reason that football could not be modeled the same way baseball is.
 

Animal02

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They don't need any extra money. They already get everything paid for. They get lots of clothes, food, and transportation paid for. They are dressed better, eat better, and live better than the vast majority of the normal student population. Their salary is they get their whole life (and a great quality of one) paid for PLUS their education paid for. That's a pretty huge salary.

EVERYTHING is not paid for. Granting athletes small stipends along with the scholly's (just like Ph'd students often get) would go a long way to getting rid of the "booster problem"
 

AE 87

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When the American public thought there was something wrong with our public education system, politicians were pressured into making some regulations. It was found that many high schools were graduating people who couldn't do elementary level work ... not all high school diplomas are created equal (DUH?). So, they came up with the High School Graduation Test. In Georgia, all students have to make a minimum score on this test in all subjects in order to earn a high school diploma as well as passing the requisite classes. Colleges however seem to have been left unaccountable in this regard. One solution to all this would be a College Graduation Test. In other words, our country would be saying, "Anyone who earns what is to be labeled as a college diploma (or Bachelor's Degree), should meet these minimum standards as proven by this standardized test." Whoa nelly, wouldn't that be a kick in the balls for the factories! They would actually have to educate their students. Imagine that craziness.

I wonder if they could calculate a minimum GRE score for this purpose since it already has the framework for recognizing specializations.

Otherwise, they could just require that every undergraduate degree be accompanied by a GRE score. Let employers decide if they want to look at it. Exit information on athletes could be collected from state institutions in the same way entrance information is collected.
 

Blumpkin Souffle

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There is no reason that football could not be modeled the same way baseball is.

At the very least I don't understand why you lose all eligibility as soon as you declare for the draft. I see no problem if a player declares, and then decides to return for their senior year if they don't get drafted as highly as they would've liked. Dwyer would have likely returned if this were the case.
 

Animal02

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Good question. I'm not familiar with it. I may have taken it and don't remember.

We had to take it when I was at Tech......it was required for graduation......if I recall, it was a 10 grade level english test with an essay. I seem to recall you had to pass it at a certain point or you could not take any classes except remedial english. It was not that difficult.
 

4shotB

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There is no reason that football could not be modeled the same way baseball is.

no reason for football (the NFL) to move to this model. The NCAA is bearing the cost of player development...who is better known to the average sports fan....Johhny Manziel or the Red Sox' top minor league prospect. Is there reason for colleges to do it? Look at college baseball. Does it generate income? No. Doubt football will either if the Manziel's and Clowney's are playing in the minor leagues. Without the football cash cow, what happens to baseball, women's BB, tennis, etc.? Doesn't FB, and men's BB to a lesser extent, foot the bill for the other sports?
 

bke1984

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Ask any UNC alum whether they care more about winning national championships in basketball or being embarrassed by said transcripts.

Most would not care about being embarrassed. It is only a few naive schools that retain the cloak of student-athlete.

Yeah, but here's the deal...as important as football and basketball are to myself, our school, and our fans, the integrity of the institute is MUCH more important. Being a public institution, you cannot offer degrees in which only athletes can major...so if you offer these lesser degrees, they have to be opened up to all students at the school, which in turn devalues a degree from Georgia Tech. I don't know about you, but I'm very proud of earning a degree (two, in fact) from the Institute, and I would hate to see its standing in the workplace devalued by something like this.

If the NCAA chooses to lift the requirement for athletes to be full-time students, I think you'll see the power in college football shift away from schools that offer these sorts of programs. If that happens, then all of this is a moot point...but until then, I'd very much like to maintain our standing as a world class university.
 

Animal02

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no reason for football (the NFL) to move to this model. The NCAA is bearing the cost of player development...who is better known to the average sports fan....Johhny Manziel or the Red Sox' top minor league prospect. Is there reason for colleges to do it? Look at college baseball. Does it generate income? No. Doubt football will either if the Manziel's and Clowney's are playing in the minor leagues. Without the football cash cow, what happens to baseball, women's BB, tennis, etc.? Doesn't FB, and men's BB to a lesser extent, foot the bill for the other sports?

There is no point forcing kids to go to school if all they want to do is play in the NFL.
 

MWBATL

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Yeah, but here's the deal...as important as football and basketball are to myself, our school, and our fans, the integrity of the institute is MUCH more important. Being a public institution, you cannot offer degrees in which only athletes can major...so if you offer these lesser degrees, they have to be opened up to all students at the school, which in turn devalues a degree from Georgia Tech. I don't know about you, but I'm very proud of earning a degree (two, in fact) from the Institute, and I would hate to see its standing in the workplace devalued by something like this.

If the NCAA chooses to lift the requirement for athletes to be full-time students, I think you'll see the power in college football shift away from schools that offer these sorts of programs. If that happens, then all of this is a moot point...but until then, I'd very much like to maintain our standing as a world class university.

While I understand this point of view, and agree it is noble to retain a high integrity program, I must completely disagree with the concept that a good athletic program diminishes the value of the degree. Stanford has had The List for its athletes, I doubt it has had *any* impact of the value of degrees issued there, and in fact think that 99.9% of people don't even know that Stanford has helped out their athletes that way. (The List is a posted list in the Stanford Athletics Association for its athlete's use of courses which are easy A's to pad their academic GPA.) I seriously doubt the UNC scandals currently in the news are recognized as issues by ANY corporate recruiters. The world is smart enough to realize that universities treat their athletes differently than the rest of their academic efforts. Heck, even Harvard offers athletes who would otherwise not be accepted into school. Does that diminish your view of a Harvard degree?

In the absence of a single proof of this concept, it is perhaps the single most mis-used argument on these boards. There are many excellent arguments for retaining high academic standards, but I don't think any school has EVER suffered from degree degradation just because their athletics program makes huge exceptions? Univ of Florida has not suffered in its reputation for being the best academic SEC school, yet its football team *average* SAT was in the low 800's (2 part SAT). That's incredibly low. And if you ever heard some of those players speak (Percy Harvin comes to mind) you would be embarrassed. But their rankings have not suffered, nor is anyone else suffering from this. Would you stop doing business with someone you already know just because they graduated from UF? Do you seriously think large businesses would stop recruiting there simply because UF treats their athletes differently?

Sorry, but such arguments need more than general opinions, imho. (This one obviously gets me riled up the most because I cannot fathom how anyone really believes it.)
 

MWBATL

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There is no point forcing kids to go to school if all they want to do is play in the NFL.

This is an excellent point. Many schools in fact are the minor leagues for the NFL already. I am sure the NFL realizes they have a great deal here, they don't have to pay out a dime, and the colleges "educate" their players in what matters to the NFL....blocking, tackling, etc.

One can argue that the real solution to this whole mess is to simply allow colleges to offer degrees in professional sports. The kids would NOT have to take courses that fit the rest of the college's academic profile, but they would get necessary education in managing their own money, selecting agents, the latest draft rules, etc while spending all their time on football (or basketball, which suffers from similar abuse on a smaller scale because the number of kids involved is smaller). It at least removes the hypocrisy of being a "student-athlete". Young men would be free to choose whether they wanted a 'real education' or to major in pro sports, which has little value if you don't make the league. But at least it recognizes the reality that this is really what is happening today. Then you could allow NFL teams to foot the bill for stipends, for example, just the way corporations pay interns or coops in college.

The simple truth is that most kids who are involved in the factory aspects of college sports realize that the odds are against them, and that if they go all in on football, they may wind up with nothing. But they are doing it today in ways that make it dirty and against the rules. Why not legalize it?
 

flounder

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While I understand this point of view, and agree it is noble to retain a high integrity program, I must completely disagree with the concept that a good athletic program diminishes the value of the degree. Stanford has had The List for its athletes, I doubt it has had *any* impact of the value of degrees issued there, and in fact think that 99.9% of people don't even know that Stanford has helped out their athletes that way. (The List is a posted list in the Stanford Athletics Association for its athlete's use of courses which are easy A's to pad their academic GPA.) I seriously doubt the UNC scandals currently in the news are recognized as issues by ANY corporate recruiters. The world is smart enough to realize that universities treat their athletes differently than the rest of their academic efforts. Heck, even Harvard offers athletes who would otherwise not be accepted into school. Does that diminish your view of a Harvard degree?

The difference between UNC and a school like Florida is that UNC sacrificed their academic integrity to promote their sports program. I agree that UNC's reputation probably hasn't been hurt that much, but that's only because it hasn't been a national story. If you look at Penn State, though, their academic reputation suffered a great deal from the Sandusky scandal. If you're willing to sell out your academic integrity for athletics, people are going to start to wonder what else you would be willing to do. The danger isn't having a good athletics program, the danger is in making academic decisions based on what's best for your athletics program.
 
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