I want a run first pro style offense

[AE 87]

@daBuzz thanks for responding to my post, but you didn't address my direct questions. So, I conclude that you are not serious about having adult conversation.

I will give you the respect that you did not give me by responding to your direct question.

I did not intend my comment as a personal insult but as a complaint. The question @dresscheeseside asked was not whether a pitch was a pass, but whether a pitch was a rock in the air that's fun to watch.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Personally, I thought dcs was just being clever and using it as a good natured way to tease Mack. So, I used the same opportunity back.

You are right. But my comment also brings to fore a point that has always bothered me. Why do pass happy attacks get praise for high completion % when a good portion (probably majority) of those are wide open passes to the flats where the ball travels 5 to 10 yards horizontally but only about 1 to 3 yards vertically?

It's an easy pass and most of the yards are gained after the catch, yet all the yards go to the passer.

Now consider our pitches, many of which actually travel forward but are never considered completed passes and never get tallied as such or the yards after the catch counting towards passing yards. My biggest beef is that the immense skill required and difficulty overcome to make these plays goes completely unnoticed by many of our supposedly knowledgeable fans. Timing, synchronicity, spacing, reading, reaction, accuracy... all in the face of massive linemen, LB's and safeties in the grills of our qb.... none of this matters to the guys who poo poo our ground attack, or more appropriately, the aesthetic of our ground attack.

I don't get that lack of appreciation.

 

[IronJacket7]

nm

 

[daBuzz]

You are right. But my comment also brings to fore a point that has always bothered me. Why do pass happy attacks get praise for high completion % when a good portion (probably majority) of those are wide open passes to the flats where the ball travels 5 to 10 yards horizontally but only about 1 to 3 yards vertically?

It's an easy pass and most of the yards are gained after the catch, yet all the yards go to the passer.

Now consider our pitches, many of which actually travel forward but are never considered completed passes and never get tallied as such or the yards after the catch counting towards passing yards. My biggest beef is that the immense skill required and difficulty overcome to make these plays goes completely unnoticed by many of our supposedly knowledgeable fans. Timing, synchronicity, spacing, reading, reaction, accuracy... all in the face of massive linemen, LB's and safeties in the grills of our qb.... none of this matters to the guys who poo poo our ground attack, or more appropriately, the aesthetic of our ground attack.

I don't get that lack of appreciation.

Those are good points and I agree with you on the completion percentage question. Honestly, I've always thought that a pass that is deflected by the receiver into the hands of a defender should be counted in the statistics as an interception but it should go against the receiver and not the QB. Obviously this leaves room for subjectivity because someone would have to determine if it was a well thrown ball or not, etc. But it seems unfair to consider that as a negative against the QB if he hits the receiver in the hands and in stride but the receiver just misses it.

However, I will take issue with the generalization where you say that "none of this matters to the guys who poo poo our ground attack, or more appropriately, the aesthetic of our ground attack.". I completely understand the subtleties and the nuances of what we do and can appreciate how difficult they are to perform and to perform correctly. That does not mean though that I have to enjoy watching them.

I will watch the team and support the team because it's my chosen school. But I just simply don't enjoy watching offenses that run the football what seems like all of the time. That's just my personal preference.

And one thing I would point out is that our pitches will usually be run to the short side of the field because of the way the defensive numbers will dictate it. So the rocket toss to that side is quite different than an offense that is using the wide side of the field to throw a tunnel screen or bubble screen. Even a rocket toss to that wide side of the field won't get the ball out in space that far outside the LOS that quickly.

 

[ATL1]

It would take a lot of time to determine if a pitch is forward or not. I'm not even sure what percentage of our pitches should be considered passes.

 

[danny daniel]

It would take a lot of time to determine if a pitch is forward or not. I'm not even sure what percentage of our pitches should be considered passes.

None of them when the QB has passed the LOS. A small (small being more equated to fairly rare) percentage when the QB has not passed the LOS from my observation.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

And one thing I would point out is that our pitches will usually be run to the short side of the field because of the way the defensive numbers will dictate it. So the rocket toss to that side is quite different than an offense that is using the wide side of the field to throw a tunnel screen or bubble screen. Even a rocket toss to that wide side of the field won't get the ball out in space that far outside the LOS that quickly.

Running consistently to the short side sets up the counter to the wide side. Like many offensive plays in many different systems, coaches try to out smart their counterpart and catch them leaning one way or another. We killed USCw many times when they bit on motion and those were a bunch of 4 stars out there, no slouches.

 

[daBuzz]

Running consistently to the short side sets up the counter to the wide side. Like many offensive plays in many different systems, coaches try to out smart their counterpart and catch them leaning one way or another. We killed USCw many times when they bit on motion and those were a bunch of 4 stars out there, no slouches.

I don't disagree with your statements at all. However, the main reason to run to the short side is because the QB comes to the LOS and counts the players on each side of the ball. The side with the fewer players is the one that gives you the ability to option the DE and create a numbers advantage. So it is primarily a function of the system, moreso than the desire to set up the counter to the wide side.

I was saying that "spread option" teams such as Oregon, Auburn, etc tend to pad their passing stats with short throws. However, the whole concept behind the spread is to get the ball out to your players in space where there are fewer players and allow them to try & break a tackle and make a big gain out of a short throw. And, I was merely pointing out that being able to get the ball that quickly out to a receiver that far away from the mass of bodies at the LOS is a basic tenet of those offenses.

Honestly, it's something I think we could utilize more when we are set up in an unbalanced set.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

However, the whole concept behind the spread is to get the ball out to your players in space where there are fewer players and allow them to try & break a tackle and make a big gain out of a short throw. And, I was merely pointing out that being able to get the ball that quickly out to a receiver that far away from the mass of bodies at the LOS is a basic tenet of those offenses.

Honestly, it's something I think we could utilize more when we are set up in an unbalanced set.

Doesn't a spread offense by definition tend to cause the defense to spread out also effectively eliminating "a mass of bodies at the LOS?" I get your point, though, get your playmakers out in space one-on-one and let them do their thing. I think our offense tries to do that, too, outside of the inside run game.

 

[daBuzz]

Doesn't a spread offense by definition tend to cause the defense to spread out also effectively eliminating "a mass of bodies at the LOS?" I get your point, though, get your playmakers out in space one-on-one and let them do their thing. I think our offense tries to do that, too, outside of the inside run game.

That's a good question and I would say that "it depends". Teams like Oregon and Auburn still run the ball a majority of the time, so it forces defenses to keep more men in the box. So when they do pass, there are usually fewer players out there in space.

However, teams like Leach's team which throw the ball around all of the time face exactly what you're saying.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

That's a good question and I would say that "it depends". Teams like Oregon and Auburn still run the ball a majority of the time, so it forces defenses to keep more men in the box. So when they do pass, there are usually fewer players out there in space.

However, teams like Leach's team which throw the ball around all of the time face exactly what you're saying.

Oregon and Auburn benefit in the run game by spreading out the defense. The defense has it's benefits, too. They can see plays develop easier (less bodies obstrucing the view) and have more lanes to run to the ball. It still comes down to beating your man whether it be by speed, athleticism or brute force. When most of your guys beat most of their guys, you typically succeed on that play. Whatever scheme best utilizes the assets of your personnel, that's the one that's most effective for your team.

We have great speed and quickness at the position that most handles the ball and also has the most carries. Let's hope we maximize those assets.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

You are right. But my comment also brings to fore a point that has always bothered me. Why do pass happy attacks get praise for high completion % when a good portion (probably majority) of those are wide open passes to the flats where the ball travels 5 to 10 yards horizontally but only about 1 to 3 yards vertically?

It's an easy pass and most of the yards are gained after the catch, yet all the yards go to the passer.

Now consider our pitches, many of which actually travel forward but are never considered completed passes and never get tallied as such or the yards after the catch counting towards passing yards. My biggest beef is that the immense skill required and difficulty overcome to make these plays goes completely unnoticed by many of our supposedly knowledgeable fans. Timing, synchronicity, spacing, reading, reaction, accuracy... all in the face of massive linemen, LB's and safeties in the grills of our qb.... none of this matters to the guys who poo poo our ground attack, or more appropriately, the aesthetic of our ground attack.

I don't get that lack of appreciation.

If I'm not mistaken, any pitch that actually travels forward in the air IS considered a forward pass.

 

[danny daniel]

If I'm not mistaken, any pitch that actually travels forward in the air IS considered a forward pass.

Yes, it is a forward pass but if the "pitcher" is past the LOS it is an ILLEGAL forward pass subject to penalty.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Yes, it is a forward pass but if the "pitcher" is past the LOS it is an ILLEGAL forward pass subject to penalty.

I can't remember the last time the QB actually pitched the ball after turning the corner and heading up field [past the line of scrimmage]. I have seen many times when the pitch behind the line of scrimmage was a forward pass credited as a run.

 

[danny daniel]

I can't remember the last time the QB actually pitched the ball after turning the corner and heading up field [past the line of scrimmage]. I have seen many times when the pitch behind the line of scrimmage was a forward pass credited as a run.

You are right. You have not seen it much lately, if at all, from us because we have not gotten the TO3 rolling like some Navy or GSU QBs, but when you get the TO3 rolling you will see it a measurable number of times. I have seen it on HS recruiting tapes recently. It is somewhat rare but definitely part of the TO3 game.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Yes, it is a forward pass but if the "pitcher" is past the LOS it is an ILLEGAL forward pass subject to penalty.

Yes, exactly

 

[awbuzz]

Funny my friend but remember when you need sixty yes and time is running out .....don't think the pitch is a available option.

... thought we pitched sometimes when running the option...

 

[awbuzz]

It would take a lot of time to determine if a pitch is forward or not. I'm not even sure what percentage of our pitches should be considered passes.

That'd be great to have happen. Problem is as you point out becomes how to do it "quick enough" to satisfy the "fans" watching the game.

 

[awbuzz]

If I'm not mistaken, any pitch that actually travels forward in the air IS considered a forward pass.

Technically yes, but as ATL1 pointed out sometimes it's hard to determine.

With that said, Shouldn't the opposite should be true? Any "pitch" (underhand, overhand, side armed, shot putted, etc.) that is not a forward lateral should be considered rushing yardage. I wonder how many of those (again not many happen that way) end up being counted as passing yards instead of rushing yards.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

The problem with "scoring" our pitches is that many times our qb and Aback are moving diagonally across the field, not perfectly horizontal. This makes the pitch actually travel forward even though it appears to travel backward or sideways due to the qb/Aback relationship. For example, when in our own end of the field, if we pitch on the 20 yardline and it's caught on the 21, it should be called a forward pass regardless of how it looks according to the pitch relationship.