How long does it take to install the option?

year_of_the_swarm

year_of_the_swarm

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
360
For Georgia Tech, CPJ took a team on probation that was expected to be horrible and went 9-4 in the first year after installing the system. His coaching tree is doing unbelievably well at Navy and Army.

Fast forward to 2018... if programs like Kansas (their current head coach is 3-33 trying to install the Air Raid offense at KU) finally came to their senses and realized that like military schools and a few others, the option is your best bet for consistent success... how long does it take?

Georgia Tech showed it was immediate... but that team had some players.

What would you guys expect from other "power conference" schools who just can't put a decent team on the field like Kansas, Wake Forest, Syracuse, and dozens of others..

Syracuse recent history is:
4-8, 4-8, 4-8, 3-9, 5-7, 2-10, 7-5, 1-10, etc....

Lets say they (Syracuse, KU, whoever) hired Monken, Niumatalolo, or CPJ... Does Kansas go from a team that keeps going 1-11 to a team that wins 5-6 games immediately the next year?

They put 21 points on Ohio... 7 on Memphis... 7 on Baylor... lost to South Dakota State... 14 on a horrible Rutgers team.. They aren't beating ANYBODY. Cream puffs or otherwise. You could cite over the years all the wins that Georgia Tech has had... They beat Georgia, Mississippi State, went undefeated against the SEC teams they played a few years ago, etc... Regularly beat ACC competition and were a few plays away from winning 8 games last year...

Then you look at Army. They won a bowl game against a good SDSU team last year... I watched them a few years ago beat UTEP 66-14. Kansas and Syracuse (and many others) aren't scoring 66 points in a game against ANYONE, not even DII schools. Yet a military academy did running the option. They ran for 450 yards against SDSU... ran for about 500 yards against UTEP. They do this kind of thing pretty regularly.

Lastly.... how surprised are you that given the success of Navy, Army, Georgia Tech, and Air Force that programs like this aren't making this change?
 
MikeJackets1967

MikeJackets1967

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,844
Location
Lovely Ducktown,Tennessee
year_of_the_swarm said:
For Georgia Tech, CPJ took a team on probation that was expected to be horrible and went 9-4 in the first year after installing the system. His coaching tree is doing unbelievably well at Navy and Army.

Fast forward to 2018... if programs like Kansas (their current head coach is 3-33 trying to install the Air Raid offense at KU) finally came to their senses and realized that like military schools and a few others, the option is your best bet for consistent success... how long does it take?

Georgia Tech showed it was immediate... but that team had some players.

What would you guys expect from other "power conference" schools who just can't put a decent team on the field like Kansas, Wake Forest, Syracuse, and dozens of others..

Syracuse recent history is:
4-8, 4-8, 4-8, 3-9, 5-7, 2-10, 7-5, 1-10, etc....

Lets say they (Syracuse, KU, whoever) hired Monken, Niumatalolo, or CPJ... Does Kansas go from a team that keeps going 1-11 to a team that wins 5-6 games immediately the next year?

They put 21 points on Ohio... 7 on Memphis... 7 on Baylor... lost to South Dakota State... 14 on a horrible Rutgers team.. They aren't beating ANYBODY. Cream puffs or otherwise. You could cite over the years all the wins that Georgia Tech has had... They beat Georgia, Mississippi State, went undefeated against the SEC teams they played a few years ago, etc... Regularly beat ACC competition and were a few plays away from winning 8 games last year...

Then you look at Army. They won a bowl game against a good SDSU team last year... I watched them a few years ago beat UTEP 66-14. Kansas and Syracuse (and many others) aren't scoring 66 points in a game against ANYONE, not even DII schools. Yet a military academy did running the option. They ran for 450 yards against SDSU... ran for about 500 yards against UTEP. They do this kind of thing pretty regularly.

Lastly.... how surprised are you that given the success of Navy, Army, Georgia Tech, and Air Force that programs like this aren't making this change?
Click to expand...
Historically Woody Hayes at Ohio State put in the Wishbone right before the Rose Bowl against Stanford in January 1971. He was so scared of Stanford Heisman Trophy winner Jim Plunkett that he wanted an offense to keep the ball away from him. It didn't help and Jim Plunkett passed for 300+ yards and Stanford won 27-17.
 
OldJacketFan

OldJacketFan

Helluva Engineer
Messages
8,348
Location
Nashville, TN
year_of_the_swarm said:
For Georgia Tech, CPJ took a team on probation that was expected to be horrible and went 9-4 in the first year after installing the system. His coaching tree is doing unbelievably well at Navy and Army.

Fast forward to 2018... if programs like Kansas (their current head coach is 3-33 trying to install the Air Raid offense at KU) finally came to their senses and realized that like military schools and a few others, the option is your best bet for consistent success... how long does it take?

Georgia Tech showed it was immediate... but that team had some players.

What would you guys expect from other "power conference" schools who just can't put a decent team on the field like Kansas, Wake Forest, Syracuse, and dozens of others..

Syracuse recent history is:
4-8, 4-8, 4-8, 3-9, 5-7, 2-10, 7-5, 1-10, etc....

Lets say they (Syracuse, KU, whoever) hired Monken, Niumatalolo, or CPJ... Does Kansas go from a team that keeps going 1-11 to a team that wins 5-6 games immediately the next year?

They put 21 points on Ohio... 7 on Memphis... 7 on Baylor... lost to South Dakota State... 14 on a horrible Rutgers team.. They aren't beating ANYBODY. Cream puffs or otherwise. You could cite over the years all the wins that Georgia Tech has had... They beat Georgia, Mississippi State, went undefeated against the SEC teams they played a few years ago, etc... Regularly beat ACC competition and were a few plays away from winning 8 games last year...

Then you look at Army. They won a bowl game against a good SDSU team last year... I watched them a few years ago beat UTEP 66-14. Kansas and Syracuse (and many others) aren't scoring 66 points in a game against ANYONE, not even DII schools. Yet a military academy did running the option. They ran for 450 yards against SDSU... ran for about 500 yards against UTEP. They do this kind of thing pretty regularly.

Lastly.... how surprised are you that given the success of Navy, Army, Georgia Tech, and Air Force that programs like this aren't making this change?
Click to expand...


Lots of good points in your post! I agree there are a ton of schools that would benefit going to a PJ type of attack yet for some reason they continue to try and recruit to the same offenses they compete against! I've heard a number of reasons why schools don't go to it but frankly to me they all sounds like excuses and bulls**t. But hey, it's their misery, let them wallow in it.
 
MikeJackets1967

MikeJackets1967

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,844
Location
Lovely Ducktown,Tennessee
OldJacketFan said:
Lots of good points in your post! I agree there are a ton of schools that would benefit going to a PJ type of attack yet for some reason they continue to try and recruit to the same offenses they compete against! I've heard a number of reasons why schools don't go it but frankly to me they all sounds like excuses and bulls**t. But hey, it their misery, let them wallow in it.
Click to expand...
I think it doesn't take as nearly as long to install a triple option offense than it does to change from a triple option offense to another offense like the spread or pro set offense;)
 
Techster

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,216
CPJ had the perfect athletes to transition to the option at GT. Josh Nesbitt was a top 10 dual threat QB out of high school, and ended up playing safety in the NFL. IF you watch early season highlights of 2008, he was key factor in keeping our offense going with his improvisation. Dwyer was an elite RB, and future NFL player. CPJ said in terms of physical attributes, JD was the perfect BB. Demaryius Thomas...we all know his credentials. ON the OL, Andrew Gardner was a multi year All ACC player, and future NFL guy. Cord Howard was very good, and also saw some time in the NFL. Uzzi was a 4 star freshmen that played a lot. Nick Clayter was a 2 year player and a 4 star OL recruit. CPJ had to do some patch work on the OL, but there was talent there.

People sometimes forget this, but that 2008 defense was pretty stacked. Virtually the entire defense, outside of the LB spots, saw some time in the NFL. That defense actually carried us early in the season.

At Navy, CPJ struggled mightily his first year. They were 2-8. But the second year CPJ was able to take them to 8-5 and a bowl game. Coach Ken has kept the Navy Ship steaming full bore...ahem

Jeff Monken experienced the same thing at Army. First year 4-8, second year 2-10. But now he has Army is a very good spot.

To answer your question: How long does it take to install the option? Depends. CPJ was blessed to walk into a great situation with athletes that fit his offense and a great defense, and the results showed right away. At Navy and Army, it took a little more time.

One thing is certain: The Flex Option system is certainly a schematic advantage. Look at offensive FEI the past decade. GT and Navy are always ranked high, and Army actually surpassed both last year.
 
RamblinWreck92

RamblinWreck92

Banned
Messages
746
MikeJackets1967 said:
Historically Woody Hayes at Ohio State put in the Wishbone right before the Rose Bowl against Stanford in January 1971. He was so scared of Stanford Heisman Trophy winner Jim Plunkett that he wanted an offense to keep the ball away from him. It didn't help and Jim Plunkett passed for 300+ yards and Stanford won 27-17.
Click to expand...

Plunkett to 'em!
 
RamblinWreck92

RamblinWreck92

Banned
Messages
746
year_of_the_swarm said:
For Georgia Tech, CPJ took a team on probation that was expected to be horrible and went 9-4 in the first year after installing the system. His coaching tree is doing unbelievably well at Navy and Army.

Fast forward to 2018... if programs like Kansas (their current head coach is 3-33 trying to install the Air Raid offense at KU) finally came to their senses and realized that like military schools and a few others, the option is your best bet for consistent success... how long does it take?

Georgia Tech showed it was immediate... but that team had some players.

What would you guys expect from other "power conference" schools who just can't put a decent team on the field like Kansas, Wake Forest, Syracuse, and dozens of others..

Syracuse recent history is:
4-8, 4-8, 4-8, 3-9, 5-7, 2-10, 7-5, 1-10, etc....

Lets say they (Syracuse, KU, whoever) hired Monken, Niumatalolo, or CPJ... Does Kansas go from a team that keeps going 1-11 to a team that wins 5-6 games immediately the next year?

They put 21 points on Ohio... 7 on Memphis... 7 on Baylor... lost to South Dakota State... 14 on a horrible Rutgers team.. They aren't beating ANYBODY. Cream puffs or otherwise. You could cite over the years all the wins that Georgia Tech has had... They beat Georgia, Mississippi State, went undefeated against the SEC teams they played a few years ago, etc... Regularly beat ACC competition and were a few plays away from winning 8 games last year...

Then you look at Army. They won a bowl game against a good SDSU team last year... I watched them a few years ago beat UTEP 66-14. Kansas and Syracuse (and many others) aren't scoring 66 points in a game against ANYONE, not even DII schools. Yet a military academy did running the option. They ran for 450 yards against SDSU... ran for about 500 yards against UTEP. They do this kind of thing pretty regularly.

Lastly.... how surprised are you that given the success of Navy, Army, Georgia Tech, and Air Force that programs like this aren't making this change?
Click to expand...

As long as the NFL isn't running our type of offense, don't expect other colleges to start adapting it.

With the exception of us a few times, this offense actually has NOT done great against most P5 schools. Teams like Wake and Syracuse aren't trying to figure out how to beat SDSU - they're trying to compete with the elite teams in their respective conferences. Outside of Orange Bowl 2014 and maybe Clemson 2009, we haven't knocked off any top-tier elite teams with this offense. It got absolutely stifled by LSU and Iowa, wasn't able to beat FSU in 2014 and the mutt teams it beat weren't great by mutt standards. Outside of us, 'Bama, Oklahoma, aren't losing to option teams either.

I'm guessing places like Kansas are just tough to get kids to go to regardless of offense. They've sucked since forever. Yet you have places like Baylor and Texas Tech, located in hellholes, that usually reel in talent, likely because that offense is flashy and scores tons of points.

I think most places look at our offense as taking a step backward when it comes to recruiting and just the overall "package" of the team. Our W-L record with it isn't vastly different as the previous offense we ran that had very avg. results.
 
GT_05

GT_05

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,370
MikeJackets1967 said:
I think it doesn't take as nearly as long to install a triple option offense than it does to change from a triple option offense to another offense like the spread or pro set offense;)
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. What will happen to GT when CPJ leaves? Hire another coach that runs a similar offense or hire someone who runs a different offense and face 3 to 4 years of rebuilding?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
RamblinWreck92

RamblinWreck92

Banned
Messages
746
GT_05 said:
Yes, I agree. What will happen to GT when CPJ leaves? Hire another coach that runs a similar offense or hire someone who runs a different offense and face 3 to 4 years of rebuilding?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

What QB is left will be a huge factor. If a Lucas or Graham is here (a real passer), it won't take 3-4 years!
 
MikeJackets1967

MikeJackets1967

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,844
Location
Lovely Ducktown,Tennessee
GT_05 said:
Yes, I agree. What will happen to GT when CPJ leaves? Hire another coach that runs a similar offense or hire someone who runs a different offense and face 3 to 4 years of rebuilding?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I think the next head coach at GT will be an up and coming mid major head football coach or an up and coming assistant and they will install the spread or pro set offenses.
 
Gtbowhunter90

Gtbowhunter90

In Black Bear Country
Contributing Writer
Messages
2,625
Location
Cartersville, GA
I am convinced that places like Kansas, Cuse and WF don't care AS MUCH about football because they aren't the main sport that the fans care about. We all know Kansas and Cuse's resumes in Mens Basketball..
That being said, GT is the standard for option football in the NCAA, I wish the kids liked it more for its grittiness, hardnosed style, but its all about finesse these days.
 
MikeJackets1967

MikeJackets1967

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,844
Location
Lovely Ducktown,Tennessee
Gtbowhunter90 said:
I am convinced that places like Kansas, Cuse and WF don't care AS MUCH about football because they aren't the main sport that the fans care about. We all know Kansas and Cuse's resumes in Mens Basketball..
That being said, GT is the standard for option football in the NCAA, I wish the kids liked it more for its grittiness, hardnosed style, but its all about finesse these days.
Click to expand...
(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)
 

takethepoints

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,086
1. In order to install the option one has to know how to do it.

One reason why Coach has been so successful is that he's been running the O so long and has seen, literally, everything done to stop it. The reason the service academies have been successful is that they hired people who coached with him. Then it is just a matter of finding the players to fit the scheme. But … first you have to know what you are doing. Most coaches who haven't been dedicated to it have no real idea about how to install or run the O. They know how to run a double option spread; that's dead simple. Our O, however, is one of the most complex in football history. Not, mind, because of the plays, but because of the blocking schemes used to run them. Remember this? https://www.pscp.tv/SwainEvent/1LyxBEjyowOJN?t=12. I've never seen a group of football players more suddenly brought back to reality then Swain and associates as Roddy explains how the O works. That's something that most coaches in the US have no experience with and, to be frank, couldn't handle.

2. I don't doubt that Tech might try a coach who'll put in a spread offense after Coach leaves. I also don't doubt that he will fail. I also don't doubt that we'll be running a version of the O again in 3 - 4 years, probably with one of his disciples at he helm (my guess = Brian Bohannon). That's what happened at GSU and I see no reason why it won't happen here, if we decide to change horses.

Of course, we could just cut to the chase and try to hire Monken, who might leave Army, or Bohannon and keep the ball rolling. Let's hope we do that.
 

1939hotmagic

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
403
Well, it wasn't the CPJ option-based spread, but: After West Virginia completed a successful regular season in 1969, with a young offensive coordinator named Bobby Bowden, Bowden and coach Jim Carlen decided to change things up to surprise the SC Gamecocks in the Peach Bowl, so: West Virginia installed the wishbone offense in December.

West Virginia threw all of two passes against the Gamecocks, and won, 14-3 as RB Eddie Williams ran for 208 yards. Carlen moved on to Texas Tech, and Bowden was bumped up to HC at West Virginia.
 
MikeJackets1967

MikeJackets1967

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,844
Location
Lovely Ducktown,Tennessee
1939hotmagic said:
Well, it wasn't the CPJ option-based spread, but: After West Virginia completed a successful regular season in 1969, with a young offensive coordinator named Bobby Bowden, Bowden and coach Jim Carlen decided to change things up to surprise the SC Gamecocks in the Peach Bowl, so: West Virginia installed the wishbone offense in December.

West Virginia threw all of two passes against the Gamecocks, and won, 14-3 as RB Eddie Williams ran for 208 yards. Carlen moved on to Texas Tech, and Bowden was bumped up to HC at West Virginia.
Click to expand...
FB Jim Braxton(who blocked for OJ Simpson in Buffalo) also played for that West Virginia team. West Virginia was 11-1 in 1969 with their only loss being a 20-0 loss to 11-0 Penn State
 
Top