GT under Pastner vs GT under Gregory?

[BeeRBee]

One thing to keep in mind is that the academic situation of the team when CBG started was abysmal. If I understand the APR rules correctly, GT would not have been eligible for the NCAA tournament in his first year even if they had qualified on the court. Looking at the history of the numbers, GT should not have been APR eligible for the tournament from 2009-2012. He had to clean up the team. In his first year, the APR increased from 935 to 972. It was well above the minimum standards his entire tenure. Just my impression, but is seems like often when a coach is brought in to clean up a situation, academic or discipline, he doesn't last long after the clean up. CBG, Charlie Strong, etc. I don't know if CBG could have succeeded at GT if he was brought in in more favorable conditions, but I think he did a good job getting the program from the dumpster it was in to a favorable situation for CJP to step into(from an APR and attitude situation).

I sometimes feel like I've responded to this point too many times, and should just shrug and let it go. Instead, I'm going to quote a post I made on another board a month ago:

I totally agree that Gregory's culture and emphasis on academics were a positive. I will gently push back on the "academic mess that was here when he arrived".
GT under Hewitt had a three year stretch from 2005-2006 to 2007-2008 which were bad APR-wise, with single year APRs of 935, 913, and 840. Because the APR measurement used to determine penalties is a four year average, this period continued to hit with a 1 year scholarship reduction taken in 2010-2011.
However, the APR in Hewitt's last three years, leading up to Gregory's hiring, were 953, 960, and 1000. (Gregory gets some credit for that last year, although he was hired at the end of the academic year.) The single year APR's in Gregory's first four years were then 1000, 1000, 960, and 981, clearly putting a focus on academic culture.
As far as I know, there were no significant academic risks on the roster Gregory inherited. I do give him credit for getting the returning players to continue their academic focus.​

Here is a table with the APR data I was able to find on the NCAA's site. Note that there are adjustments made, for example for past players who come back and graduate, so for example in 2011 although the Retention rate was not 1.000, the overall APR is still reported as 1000.

 

[Peacone36]

One thing to keep in mind is that the academic situation of the team when CBG started was abysmal. If I understand the APR rules correctly, GT would not have been eligible for the NCAA tournament in his first year even if they had qualified on the court. Looking at the history of the numbers, GT should not have been APR eligible for the tournament from 2009-2012. He had to clean up the team. In his first year, the APR increased from 935 to 972. It was well above the minimum standards his entire tenure. Just my impression, but is seems like often when a coach is brought in to clean up a situation, academic or discipline, he doesn't last long after the clean up. CBG, Charlie Strong, etc. I don't know if CBG could have succeeded at GT if he was brought in in more favorable conditions, but I think he did a good job getting the program from the dumpster it was in to a favorable situation for CJP to step into(from an APR and attitude situation).

I see this post. I absolutely get what it says. And i agree with it almost completely with one thing ill add.........

There are other coaches who win who graduate players.....


You dont have to sacrifice winning to be a success in the classroom. BG was a nice guy absolutely. BG improved our standing academically sure. But we are here to win games. You play to win the game.

to quote the great james caan : "Yeah, but when was the last time 80,000 people showed up to watch a kid do a damn chemistry experiment?"

 

[lv20gt]

During CBG's first year, the "current-year" APR increased dramatically from 935 to 972. The four year average could not have increased from 935 to 972. If the team made a 1000 the year before CBG to bring it up from 915 to 935, a 1000 in CBG's first year would have only been able to reach a maximum four year average of 968. It is mathematically impossible to make that four year average increase in one year.

Sorry bud but you're clueless on this subject. Both on what is reported, because your numbers are the multi year apr, and with how 4 year rolling averages work because it is by no means mathematically impossible to make that increase in one year.

 

[RonJohn]

I sometimes feel like I've responded to this point too many times, and should just shrug and let it go. Instead, I'm going to quote a post I made on another board a month ago:

I totally agree that Gregory's culture and emphasis on academics were a positive. I will gently push back on the "academic mess that was here when he arrived".
GT under Hewitt had a three year stretch from 2005-2006 to 2007-2008 which were bad APR-wise, with single year APRs of 935, 913, and 840. Because the APR measurement used to determine penalties is a four year average, this period continued to hit with a 1 year scholarship reduction taken in 2010-2011.
However, the APR in Hewitt's last three years, leading up to Gregory's hiring, were 953, 960, and 1000. (Gregory gets some credit for that last year, although he was hired at the end of the academic year.) The single year APR's in Gregory's first four years were then 1000, 1000, 960, and 981, clearly putting a focus on academic culture.
As far as I know, there were no significant academic risks on the roster Gregory inherited. I do give him credit for getting the returning players to continue their academic focus.​

Here is a table with the APR data I was able to find on the NCAA's site. Note that there are adjustments made, for example for past players who come back and graduate, so for example in 2011 although the Retention rate was not 1.000, the overall APR is still reported as 1000.

View attachment 2338

I stand corrected about the reported number being multi-year. However, I have to say that if CPH's contract had not been so restricitve, I don't see the school retaining him after 2006-2008. In 2006-2007 two players were ineligible and i 2007-2008 three players were ineligible.

 

[RonJohn]

There are other coaches who win who graduate players.....


You dont have to sacrifice winning to be a success in the classroom. BG was a nice guy absolutely. BG improved our standing academically sure. But we are here to win games. You play to win the game.

I agree that a coach has to win to remain the coach. I was trying to point out that it seldom works out that someone brought in to clean up culture is able to remain the coach. Charlie Strong had to get rid of kids with discipline problems. He could have probably won if he had allowed the culture at Texas to remain toxic, but he cleaned the program up. Tom Herman is taking over a program in much better cultural shape than Strong did. It cost Strong wins at Texas, but he did what needed to be done. CBG brought a shock to the basketball program, not to the extent as Strong, but in a similar fashion. It is hard to win doing that. I am arguing that the GT basketball program needed that shock. The culture needed to be cleaned up. After the clean up, as with many other sports programs, a different coach had to be brought in to use the improved culture to concentrate on winning.

 

[lv20gt]

CBG brought a shock to the basketball program, not to the extent as Strong, but in a similar fashion. It is hard to win doing that. I am arguing that the GT basketball program needed that shock. The culture needed to be cleaned up. After the clean up, as with many other sports programs, a different coach had to be brought in to use the improved culture to concentrate on winning.

No he didn't. We had a perfect 1000 apr the year before he was hired. Even the previous two years were decent. Also, screw the improved culture nonsense. Gregory brought in an assistant who got a dui, he brought in a grad assistant who had been a player of his who was caught with a prostitute the night before the NIT championship game, and surprise surprise he was at the center of another scandal here. He brought in a recruit who had been suspended for cussing out refs, and his brother to help get him, and was a cancer to the team here. He brought in a transfer from the son of the AAU coach of Robert Carter to help land him. He brought in a transfer who quit on his previous team mid year and in general installed a culture of rent a players. Hell, he got our probation extended within months of getting hired here for violations. The culture was worse under gregory than it was under Hewitt.

 

[Peacone36]

No he didn't. We had a perfect 1000 apr the year before he was hired. Even the previous two years were decent. Also, screw the improved culture nonsense. Gregory brought in an assistant who got a dui, he brought in a grad assistant who had been a player of his who was caught with a prostitute the night before the NIT championship game, and surprise surprise he was at the center of another scandal here. He brought in a recruit who had been suspended for cussing out refs, and his brother to help get him, and was a cancer to the team here. He brought in a transfer from the son of the AAU coach of Robert Carter to help land him. He brought in a transfer who quit on his previous team mid year and in general installed a culture of rent a players. Hell, he got our probation extended within months of getting hired here for violations. The culture was worse under gregory than it was under Hewitt.

A culture of empathy .....

 

[Jumpman]

If BG was brought in to just clean up the academic culture, wouldn't he still be the coach? Is he the Mr. Wolf of college basketball?

 

[gtdoceulaw]

One advantage that CBG had over CJP was that he dressed better. Furthermore, I don't believe CJP wears a wristwatch. Does anyone know why this is the case?

 

[YlJacket]

Most of the major points have been made but I will chime in with my view.

For whatever reason this year's team plays defense with a lot more energy than CBG's teams generally did. I don't think they get more TOs - could be wrong - but they do close out better and stay in front of folks better. The switching defenses does help but the major thing that is different is the way Lammers has played. No one for CBG could protect the rim like he has. Personally I loved to watch Mitchell pound folks in the paint but they didn't have a chance of blocking or altering shots the way he does. His improvement and the way he plays defense just by itself makes the whole team so much better on that end.

CJP's offense is targeted to the strengths of the players we have. Note no one tries to make a living on the block because we don't have anyone that can - including Lammers. The motion opens up lanes for Okogie and Tadrick if the other team doesn't just sag - which is what happened at the end of the year. But the design versus players was excellent.

Most of all, I give CJP credit for the combination of player development and fitting the players into roles they can do. Lammers, Q and Tadrick are vastly improved over last year. Heath plays within himself. Okogie is light years ahead of where he was advertised. They all get asked to bust their behind on D but not to do things they can't on offense. Obviously I wish we had a shooter but we don't so make what you do have work.

Going forward I hope he can recruit with the big boys (top 50 kids mixed in with an occasional trip to the Burger Bar) and continue to develop and utilize talent like he and his assistants have. Do that and we can be in the top quarter or so of the ACC. I would take that and run.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Wristwatch???

 

[GTJason]

One advantage that CBG had over CJP was that he dressed better. Furthermore, I don't believe CJP wears a wristwatch. Does anyone know why this is the case?

Carries a pocket watch

 

[ramblinjacket]

One advantage that CBG had over CJP was that he dressed better.

wrong. cbg didn't wear gold ties.

 

[InsideLB]

Lots of great responses and very informative posts. While I'm a diehard football guy I have to shamefully admit to being more fairweather in hoops.

The only thing I'm not buying is that JP giving BG credit for stuff like recruiting Lammers and Okogie is merely coachspeak. Dont see what JP would possibly get out of crediting his predecessor, and I also feel JP shoots straight.

I do love that JP appears to be energetic, passionate, into promoting the program, cultivating a relationship with the student body, fun to play for, academically-minded, and competent coaching both in-game and in preparation. I like that he is supposed to be a good recruiter though we shall see about that.

He has energized me! It may not be a popular sentiment but I do appreciate Gregory's efforts and feel--as Pastner seems to--that he deserves a tip of the cap for stewarding the program. I am glad we have a more outwardly passionate BB coach though, and that our home court is becoming a tough venue!

 

[GTRX7]

While we are comparing Gregory and Pastner, I took a quick look at the Memphis boards currently talking Pastner. Man, that is a salty bunch. They seem to think they are UNC or Kentucky. Pastner is a better fit here, and I think has learned from some of his mistakes. Not surprising for a young, first time coach. Glad to have him and optimistic about the future!

 

[YlJacket]

No upside for CJP or really anyone to trash Gregory. He was what he was - a caretaker to get through a financial gap. Give him credit for recruiting Okogie, TJ and Lammers. No problem.

I will say though that CJP should get - and is getting - the credit for developing and utilizing them in ways CBG never did. Don't have to trash Gregory though to make that point.
t

 

[jacketup]

We hired Gregory because he was cheap and we had no money. No other reason.

We also hired Hewitt because he was cheap. Of course, as is true with other coaches under the Braine and DRad administrations, that got screwed that up. Hence the Gregory hire. 2 ADs later we are still paying Hewitt. Any halfass agent could out negotiate Braine and DRad.

 

[Peacone36]

A culture of empathy .....

Holy cow another dumb error by me...


Apathy.....this should be apathy...

 

[GTech63]

We hired Gregory because he was cheap and we had no money. No other reason.

We also hired Hewitt because he was cheap. Of course, as is true with other coaches under the Braine and DRad administrations, that got screwed that up. Hence the Gregory hire. 2 ADs later we are still paying Hewitt. Any halfass agent could out negotiate Braine and DRad.

Is paying Hewitt ever going to end???

 

[alentrekin]

One advantage that CBG had over CJP was that he dressed better. Furthermore, I don't believe CJP wears a wristwatch. Does anyone know why this is the case?

My guess is that he has had a cell phone his entire professional career.