GT secondary ranked #103 by PFF

[Northeast Stinger]

Here’s one of the two ESPN ACC beat writers giving position rankings from before the season:


Based on stats and a few other items, he put together this spreadsheet, but there was less of an “eye test” because there wasn’t a spring season to look at.

Our DB’s were forecast at #7. It’s one of the better position groupings on the team (RB was #5), but it’s middle of the ACC. QB, OL, and WR were ranked last.

To look how the forecast did vs actual, let’s look at one of the positions. QB was forecasting James Graham, but Sims was our QB this year. Graham was the bottom ranked QB in QBR for the ACC last season. Sims was 13th out of 15, including Notre Dame. Our QB performance was improved from last year, but not by a lot.

In Passing Defense, we were next to the bottom (UVA), at 270 yards per game. Our opponents QBR was 139.5–ahead of Duke, FSU, and UVA. Our Pass Defense wasn’t the worst, but it was bottom third of the league. I can look for some of the other ratings, but my view is that the DL improved a little from last year, but the defensive backfield regressed.

Let’s go back to the question of “the other team’s WRs are getting open, but ours aren’t, is it scheme?”. Back when we were still getting the couch coaching/film breakdown, we had some footage with analysis that some of our DBs were doing fundamentally unsound things and getting beat (hips turned the wrong way, not jamming the opposing receiver at the line, etc.). To me, that says “more of an execution problem that a scheme problem”.

Also, if our wide receivers aren’t getting open, and theirs are, that’s also something that happens when their DBs are playing better than our WRs, and their WRs are playing better than our DBs. Better pass blocking for our opponents helps too.

For scheme, with a 4-2-5 or a 3-2-5, you’ve still got the same basic man to man vs cover 2 vs cover 3/4 vs Tampa 2 coverages. We’re swapping a beefy safety for an OLB to get someone who’s faster in coverage, but it’s still the same coverage. The DB schemes are pretty similar regardless of the overall scheme.

Maybe you’d prefer a different kind of coverage—more zone or more man-to-man. From my recollection during the games, if we got burned in man to man, people asked why we weren’t in zone, and asked the opposite when we got burned in a “soft zone”.

We probably can pick smarter schemes and smarter tactics than we are. I don’t think that was the majority of our problem this year.

(Numbers people, including @ibeattetris-> there’s a Reddit with some good resources, including this listing: ).

Wow. Quite comprehensive. So, am I over simplifying to say this suggests other team’s DBs are outperforming DBs because we have bad technique?

And, conversely, does this suggest a technique problem with some of our receivers also?

 

[1979jacket]

Carpenter had health issues in off season - yet played anyway. Let's see how he does next year before making a final judgment.

 

[1979jacket]

Tre Swilling is best player on team besides maybe Gibbs. And he may be better than him.

 

[DvilleJacket]

Jeremy Muyres might have personified what you are describing as reading the game. Nowhere near as physically imposing as Thomas and Carpenter, but he was a three time All-ACC as a defensive back.

He was a good one!

 

[slugboy]

Wow. Quite comprehensive. So, am I over simplifying to say this suggests other team’s DBs are outperforming DBs because we have bad technique?

And, conversely, does this suggest a technique problem with some of our receivers also?

I'd need to look through more of the game footage to see details. On individual plays in the early and middle parts of the season, I saw some issues in the secondary. (BTW, Tre Swilling was out early and missed the FSU game).

Short version of things: I'd say our defensive backfield outperformed some units in the ACC, like Duke, UVA, and FSU. But, we weren't a top-5 in the conference defensive backfield. You might be able to argue the DBs were the strongest part of our defense, but I'd lean more towards our defensive ends. No part of our defense was stout enough to carry the rest of the defense though--so, how much does it matter which group was the strongest?

David Curry was the one defender we had to get even an all-ACC honorable mention. Ryans and Domineck have gotten weekly honors. If you're killing it as an individual player, you'll show up there, or in the stats.

Here are some individual statistics. Some of the ESPN ACC stats for interceptions are at this link. Quez Jackson (LB) and Zamari Walton (DB) lead the team with two interceptions. Tariq Carpenter has 1. Carpenter and Walton both have 5 passes defended, and Wesley Walker has 4. As a team, that's not particularly high. Our opponents have a high QBR against us. As a team, we have 6 interceptions, which is second to last in the conference.

One argument is that our DBs didn't get much help from our DL. We have 21 sacks on the season, which is 4th from the bottom of the conference. FSU, with their hyped DL, was last with just 10. Pitt was first with 46. Short version: our front 6 didn't get a ton of sacks, but our DBs did even worse in INTs and passes defended. Our defensive backfield didn't show out in the stats.

On something that's not stats--I wouldn't call this "scheme", but I saw a number of plays where the defensive backfield and the front 6 weren't on the same page--I'd see a safety fill the same gap as Curry, for example. I'd also see a player think they had safety help, when they didn't. There were plenty of collective mistakes above and beyond the individual ones.

If I was an FSU fan, I'd be really upset about their defense--they have a shutdown corner in Asante Samuel Jr, a reportedly stocked defensive line, and they're at the bottom of the conference in pass defense. As good as Samuel is/was, teams could throw at any of the other FSU DBs, and they did. At least we improved from last year.

I know I haven't given a ton of explicit examples for the defensive backs. I spent a lot of the games watching the DL, and saw us losing in the middle. I watched the front 6 a lot more than the back 5. I griped a lot about the lack of an all-22 view during games--with the broadcasts and the camera work we had this year, it was a lot harder to keep an eye on the defensive backfield. LB play, especially Curry, improved by the end of the season. The DL seemed to be holding their own towards the end of the season--which is impressive considering how many defensive linemen we were down.

This doesn't mean that an individual player isn't great. On defense, we'll have anywhere from 5-8 players in coverage. On offense, you'll have up to 5 eligible receivers and one passer. You could have two or three defensive backs play perfectly and still give up a pass. In some ways, your weakest two defenders--or your two or three defenders having their worst games--define your defense.

Re: offense and receivers:

In our FSU game, I saw our receivers getting separation and making some athletic plays. At the end of the season, against Pitt, I wasn't seeing the same separation. From the first game, aside from maybe Duke, I didn't see our receivers increase their impact through the season. I'd say it tailed off. Our running game got stronger, though. We've got athleticism at the WR position, and we should be doing better there.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I'd need to look through more of the game footage to see details. On individual plays in the early and middle parts of the season, I saw some issues in the secondary. (BTW, Tre Swilling was out early and missed the FSU game).

Short version of things: I'd say our defensive backfield outperformed some units in the ACC, like Duke, UVA, and FSU. But, we weren't a top-5 in the conference defensive backfield. You might be able to argue the DBs were the strongest part of our defense, but I'd lean more towards our defensive ends. No part of our defense was stout enough to carry the rest of the defense though--so, how much does it matter which group was the strongest?

David Curry was the one defender we had to get even an all-ACC honorable mention. Ryans and Domineck have gotten weekly honors. If you're killing it as an individual player, you'll show up there, or in the stats.

Here are some individual statistics. Some of the ESPN ACC stats for interceptions are at this link. Quez Jackson (LB) and Zamari Walton (DB) lead the team with two interceptions. Tariq Carpenter has 1. Carpenter and Walton both have 5 passes defended, and Wesley Walker has 4. As a team, that's not particularly high. Our opponents have a high QBR against us. As a team, we have 6 interceptions, which is second to last in the conference.

One argument is that our DBs didn't get much help from our DL. We have 21 sacks on the season, which is 4th from the bottom of the conference. FSU, with their hyped DL, was last with just 10. Pitt was first with 46. Short version: our front 6 didn't get a ton of sacks, but our DBs did even worse in INTs and passes defended. Our defensive backfield didn't show out in the stats.

On something that's not stats--I wouldn't call this "scheme", but I saw a number of plays where the defensive backfield and the front 6 weren't on the same page--I'd see a safety fill the same gap as Curry, for example. I'd also see a player think they had safety help, when they didn't. There were plenty of collective mistakes above and beyond the individual ones.

If I was an FSU fan, I'd be really upset about their defense--they have a shutdown corner in Asante Samuel Jr, a reportedly stocked defensive line, and they're at the bottom of the conference in pass defense. As good as Samuel is/was, teams could throw at any of the other FSU DBs, and they did. At least we improved from last year.

I know I haven't given a ton of explicit examples for the defensive backs. I spent a lot of the games watching the DL, and saw us losing in the middle. I watched the front 6 a lot more than the back 5. I griped a lot about the lack of an all-22 view during games--with the broadcasts and the camera work we had this year, it was a lot harder to keep an eye on the defensive backfield. LB play, especially Curry, improved by the end of the season. The DL seemed to be holding their own towards the end of the season--which is impressive considering how many defensive linemen we were down.

This doesn't mean that an individual player isn't great. On defense, we'll have anywhere from 5-8 players in coverage. On offense, you'll have up to 5 eligible receivers and one passer. You could have two or three defensive backs play perfectly and still give up a pass. In some ways, your weakest two defenders--or your two or three defenders having their worst games--define your defense.

Re: offense and receivers:

In our FSU game, I saw our receivers getting separation and making some athletic plays. At the end of the season, against Pitt, I wasn't seeing the same separation. From the first game, aside from maybe Duke, I didn't see our receivers increase their impact through the season. I'd say it tailed off. Our running game got stronger, though. We've got athleticism at the WR position, and we should be doing better there.

Thank you again for this. I have nothing to add other than to say a couple of DBs that I will not name surprised me by how badly they were beaten on some plays. What struck me was that it was not on plays where the opposing QB had all day in the pocket. These were plays where we had decent pressure but the QB found the open receiver quickly.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

Past decade or so:

Preseason forum: Secondary is our strength.

Post game forum: What happened to our secondary?

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

I'd need to look through more of the game footage to see details. On individual plays in the early and middle parts of the season, I saw some issues in the secondary. (BTW, Tre Swilling was out early and missed the FSU game).

Short version of things: I'd say our defensive backfield outperformed some units in the ACC, like Duke, UVA, and FSU. But, we weren't a top-5 in the conference defensive backfield. You might be able to argue the DBs were the strongest part of our defense, but I'd lean more towards our defensive ends. No part of our defense was stout enough to carry the rest of the defense though--so, how much does it matter which group was the strongest?

David Curry was the one defender we had to get even an all-ACC honorable mention. Ryans and Domineck have gotten weekly honors. If you're killing it as an individual player, you'll show up there, or in the stats.

Here are some individual statistics. Some of the ESPN ACC stats for interceptions are at this link. Quez Jackson (LB) and Zamari Walton (DB) lead the team with two interceptions. Tariq Carpenter has 1. Carpenter and Walton both have 5 passes defended, and Wesley Walker has 4. As a team, that's not particularly high. Our opponents have a high QBR against us. As a team, we have 6 interceptions, which is second to last in the conference.

One argument is that our DBs didn't get much help from our DL. We have 21 sacks on the season, which is 4th from the bottom of the conference. FSU, with their hyped DL, was last with just 10. Pitt was first with 46. Short version: our front 6 didn't get a ton of sacks, but our DBs did even worse in INTs and passes defended. Our defensive backfield didn't show out in the stats.

On something that's not stats--I wouldn't call this "scheme", but I saw a number of plays where the defensive backfield and the front 6 weren't on the same page--I'd see a safety fill the same gap as Curry, for example. I'd also see a player think they had safety help, when they didn't. There were plenty of collective mistakes above and beyond the individual ones.

If I was an FSU fan, I'd be really upset about their defense--they have a shutdown corner in Asante Samuel Jr, a reportedly stocked defensive line, and they're at the bottom of the conference in pass defense. As good as Samuel is/was, teams could throw at any of the other FSU DBs, and they did. At least we improved from last year.

I know I haven't given a ton of explicit examples for the defensive backs. I spent a lot of the games watching the DL, and saw us losing in the middle. I watched the front 6 a lot more than the back 5. I griped a lot about the lack of an all-22 view during games--with the broadcasts and the camera work we had this year, it was a lot harder to keep an eye on the defensive backfield. LB play, especially Curry, improved by the end of the season. The DL seemed to be holding their own towards the end of the season--which is impressive considering how many defensive linemen we were down.

This doesn't mean that an individual player isn't great. On defense, we'll have anywhere from 5-8 players in coverage. On offense, you'll have up to 5 eligible receivers and one passer. You could have two or three defensive backs play perfectly and still give up a pass. In some ways, your weakest two defenders--or your two or three defenders having their worst games--define your defense.

Re: offense and receivers:

In our FSU game, I saw our receivers getting separation and making some athletic plays. At the end of the season, against Pitt, I wasn't seeing the same separation. From the first game, aside from maybe Duke, I didn't see our receivers increase their impact through the season. I'd say it tailed off. Our running game got stronger, though. We've got athleticism at the WR position, and we should be doing better there.

Could be worse...the secondary could have had the same ranking as the offensive line. Ouch!