Greece Vote

[GTNavyNuke]

It will be interesting to see what GTSwarm people think.

Either way there is no good outcome for the Greeks till they get their financial house in order and start paying taxes and decrease Government benefits. They have gotten themselves into this mess. (In the US we are just going to inflate away our debt eventually and will not honor all of the long term pension commitments IMHO. Increasing inflation is just an incremental default.)

I would vote no because I think Greece is a dead man walking economically; it would seem to be the better long term solution. The European institutions are refusing to take a haircut on the outstanding debt and the debt burden is too high on Greece. The Greeks need to have their own currency so that they can become more competitive in exports. But it would be the choice between a near death illness and living as a vegetable for years hoping for a miracle cure.

Germany as the economic power house controls the EU and is making an example out of Greece by ensuring they don't get a good deal. If Greece were to get a good deal, then Portugal, Spain and Italy are right there. Plus the current ruling parties in Portugal, Spain and Italy are not as socialist as the current Greek regime. The opposition parties in Portugal, Spain and Italy favor the Greek route so just for political reasons, the southern European countries are currently siding with the northern European power base.

A lot of really good articles on Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/

 

[buzz_wiser©]

This is the result of socialism and a country where you have 30% unemployment because the government gives you everything.
Sounds too familair to me!

They should secede fromm the EU and hit bottom...
Then the only way to go is up, however, as an independent country.

 

[jwsavhGT]

The idea behind the EU, to me, has always been some utopian dream where "we're all one happy family" was very unrealistic. With Germany having the most economic power you almost have the reality of Hitler's desire to rule the whole of Europe.

 

[AE 87]

The idea behind the EU, to me, has always been some utopian dream where "we're all one happy family" was very unrealistic. With Germany having the most economic power you almost have the reality of Hitler's desire to rule the whole of Europe.

That's ethnist and offensive.

The fact is that Germany absorbed a huge economic albatross with unification of East with West. The East had close to 30% unemployment at the time iirc. Now, they're the strongest economy and are carrying the weight of successive Greek bailouts.

The Eurozone for business and NATO for defense have certainly helped, but a cultural work/duty ethic seem to be important here as well.

To throw around the Hitler name in this situation is just wrong.

 

[jwsavhGT]

That's ethnist and offensive.

The fact is that Germany absorbed a huge economic albatross with unification of East with West. The East had close to 30% unemployment at the time iirc. Now, they're the strongest economy and are carrying the weight of successive Greek bailouts.

The Eurozone for business and NATO for defense have certainly helped, but a cultural work/duty ethic seem to be important here as well.

To throw around the Hitler name in this situation is just wrong.

Sorry if you took offense but there was nothing "ethnist and offensive" meant in my response.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

The idea behind the EU, to me, has always been some utopian dream where "we're all one happy family" was very unrealistic. With Germany having the most economic power you almost have the reality of Hitler's desire to rule the whole of Europe.

I agree that the idea of a European Union is Utopian given the vastly different cultures of the different countries; especially the northern and southern European cultures. To have a monetary union (common currency) without a fiscal (budgetary) union will, I believe, turn out to be unworkable. The EU is working towards a fiscal union and Greece isn't playing - they lied about their deficits to get in and now the debts are un-payable. For the EU political structure to do anything but force Greece to pay their debt would be counter productive to the long term goal of fiscal union.

I also agree that Germany has risen again to form a Fourth Reich under the auspices of the EU. Here is a link to the three previous ones - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich. Hitler is a politically incorrect singling out of the German culture in my opinion since he led to the recent extermination of so many people. But I agree that the culture of Germany has historically been very effective at expansion (followed by a collapse). So the Germans are reaping the rewards of their hard work and foresight. Having all the weaker European countries in a monetary union with them is a tremendous benefit to Germany as it keeps the Euro much weaker than a Deutsche mark would be.

 

[AE 87]

LOL @jwsavhGT and @GTNavyNuke

It's like you're saying, "I'm not ethnist against the Germans. I'm saying they're power hungry out for world domination because they are. That's just the kind of people they are."

smh

 

[awbuzz]

The EU has to quit "enabling"... Just like a parent does when an adult child keeps going back to get " bailed out " of another problem.

 

[buzz_wiser©]

Whats interesting is, the amount is only a billion bucks.

We piss that away before brkfst here in the US.
Donald Trump being worth 9 billion
Lol.

It's just amazing to see the number as inflated as it may be..to only be 1 billion.

 

[forensicbuzz]

LOL @jwsavhGT and @GTNavyNuke

It's like you're saying, "I'm not ethnist against the Germans. I'm saying they're power hungry out for world domination because they are. That's just the kind of people they are."

smh

stop tilting at windmills

 

[Essobee]

I don't think like a Greek and I am not a socialist. Consequently, I have no idea how I would vote if I were a Greek citizen. I only know how I would vote as an American.

 

[AE 87]

stop tilting at windmills

What are you talking about? (and I get the Don Quixote reference)

@GTNavyNuke began this thread by stating his opinion that Germany "controls the EU" and that Germany's policy toward Greece was to ensure that the Greeks "don't get a good deal." Then @jwsavhGT compared Germany's role in the EU to Hitler's desire to dominate Europe, a statement that @GTNavyNuke "liked" and supported with reference to it as a "Fourth Reich." He had conceded that the comparison to Hitler wasn't "politically correct" before supporting the premise. He then seems to suggest that it was all a German plot to exploit the weaker economies by crediting their "hard work and foresight" (emphasis added) which resulted in "the weaker European countries in a monetary union" so that "it keeps the Euro much weaker than a Deutsche mark would be."

So, what do you mean? Do you think that anti-German bigotry is acceptable? Aren't you the guy that equated jokingly referring to Catholics with "fish eaters" with hundreds of years of slavery, Jim Crow, and its aftermath? If that wasn't you, I'd still like to know what you meant.

 

[jwsavhGT]

Okay, @AE 87 enough is enough. I was not expressing any type of "anti-German" bigotry so back down on that kind of rhetoric. If you have a problem with my post then please report me to the mods & if they agree with your assessment then I certainly bow to their decision to remove my above post.

 

[AE 87]

Okay, @AE 87 enough is enough. I was not expressing any type of "anti-German" bigotry so back down on that kind of rhetoric. If you have a problem with my post then please report me to the mods & if they agree with your assessment then I certainly bow to their decision to remove my above post.

I find it odd that you compare Germany's economic power in the EU to the realization of Hitler's desire, and I'm the one whose rhetoric is called into question. Ask yourself, if France were currently in the economic position of Germany playing the same role in the Greek bailout, would it have occurred to you to suggest that they were realizing Hitler's vision? If not, then that's probably because you connect Hitler with Germany, even today. That's a an anti-German bigotry, whether you want to admit it or not.

Now, before you tell me that some of your best friends are German, I'll stop. However, I prefer to discuss issues that I have with people and what they say rather than report them.

 

[Buzz776g]

My NSHO:

There's austerity and there's austerity. Regardless of the profligacy (sp) that got the Greeks where they are (from which the Germans benefited, though that's beside the point of my argument), that's where they are now.

Imagine you are a householder who has gotten way way way in over your head in debt. It's time to straighten up and fly right. So perhaps you sell your big house and buy a much smaller one. No vacations or eating out until the credit cards are paid off. You take a night job to bring in extra. You're tired a lot, but you're making progress.

Then let's say your car craps out unexpectedly. No no no you say, I cannot put an auto repair on a credit card. No credit card use until they're all paid off!!

But then you can't get to either of your jobs. If that happens, your recovery plan is not only stalled, it's now going backward if, say, you now can't pay your power bill.

With the most rigorous austerity measures, there stll must be some flexibility. You can pull yourself up, with discipline and hard work, as long as your nose stays barely above water. Once your nose goes under, you sink. I've seen this happen to many friends.

The Greeks have already gone through five years of "austerity" that hasn't seemed to help much overall. The European troika demands even more. Is the Greek government corrupt and inefficient? You bet it is. But for ordinary Greeks, I think at this point enforcing greater VAT and cutting already-cut pensions more will only finally push the nose of their economy fully under water. The analogy above, about a near-death illness vs. a vegetable hoping for a miracle cure, is a good one.

 

[AE 87]

My NSHO:

There's austerity and there's austerity. Regardless of the profligacy (sp) that got the Greeks where they are (from which the Germans benefited, though that's beside the point of my argument), that's where they are now.

Imagine you are a householder who has gotten way way way in over your head in debt. It's time to straighten up and fly right. So perhaps you sell your big house and buy a much smaller one. No vacations or eating out until the credit cards are paid off. You take a night job to bring in extra. You're tired a lot, but you're making progress.

Then let's say your car craps out unexpectedly. No no no you say, I cannot put an auto repair on a credit card. No credit card use until they're all paid off!!

But then you can't get to either of your jobs. If that happens, your recovery plan is not only stalled, it's now going backward if, say, you now can't pay your power bill.

With the most rigorous austerity measures, there stll must be some flexibility. You can pull yourself up, with discipline and hard work, as long as your nose stays barely above water. Once your nose goes under, you sink. I've seen this happen to many friends.

The Greeks have already gone through five years of "austerity" that hasn't seemed to help much overall. The European troika demands even more. Is the Greek government corrupt and inefficient? You bet it is. But for ordinary Greeks, I think at this point enforcing greater VAT and cutting already-cut pensions more will only finally push the nose of their economy fully under water. The analogy above, about a near-death illness vs. a vegetable hoping for a miracle cure, is a good one.

I think your analogy is a good starting point. However, it's missing some details. For example, as a putative householder whose trying to work out with the bank relief of debt you reveal that you actually had an unreported gambling problem on the side so that the size of the accumulated debt was, in part, intentionally hid for years, showing a pattern not only of bad accounting and misfortune but dishonesty. Also you take your time and delay moving from the big house to the smaller one. You don't always show up to your night job, and eventually you can't find a night job that will hire you. You call one of the managers of the bank whose trying to work with you a Nazi and say that really that manager should just be giving you money because the person who used to live in the bank manager's house did terrible things to your family. Then, your car craps out ... So, you decide to go to the bank and say that you can't pay it all back so there, thinking that the bank surely won't want to risk losing you as a customer ...

That's the way I see it. I agree with you that the problem is bad and that strict austerity alone can't solve it. However, the amount of this problem that rests on decisions made by the Greeks, even in the last few years is bigger than your analogy suggests. Until that is owned, I think it will be hard for a trusting flexible arrangement to work.

On the other hand, I'm still in favor of a Yes vote because I think a No to Europe will become a Yes to Russia.

 

[forensicbuzz]

My only point was that I think you're seeing things in the two posts you referenced that weren't there. I didn't interpret what either said as disparaging to the German people. Hitler did want to have economic and political control over Europe (and most of the rest of the world too). The strength of the German economy right now puts them squarely in the driver's seat in making European economic policy decisions. Those are facts, not rhetoric. To say that comparing the economic control Germany has over the EU today approaches what Hitler strove for isn't denigrating Germany. I took it as ironic.

Maybe it's because the Cold War and the anti-communist sentiment grew so quickly on the heels of the end of WWII, but I don't think many younger americans (under 50ish) equates Germany of WWII era with the Germany of today.

 

[Buzz776g]

I think your analogy is a good starting point. However, it's missing some details. For example, as a putative householder whose trying to work out with the bank relief of debt you reveal that you actually had an unreported gambling problem on the side so that the size of the accumulated debt was, in part, intentionally hid for years, showing a pattern not only of bad accounting and misfortune but dishonesty. Also you take your time and delay moving from the big house to the smaller one. You don't always show up to your night job, and eventually you can't find a night job that will hire you. You call one of the managers of the bank whose trying to work with you a Nazi and say that really that manager should just be giving you money because the person who used to live in the bank manager's house did terrible things to your family. Then, your car craps out ... So, you decide to go to the bank and say that you can't pay it all back so there, thinking that the bank surely won't want to risk losing you as a customer ...

That's the way I see it. I agree with you that the problem is bad and that strict austerity alone can't solve it. However, the amount of this problem that rests on decisions made by the Greeks, even in the last few years is bigger than your analogy suggests. Until that is owned, I think it will be hard for a trusting flexible arrangement to work.

On the other hand, I'm still in favor of a Yes vote because I think a No to Europe will become a Yes to Russia.

Very good points, and accurate expansion of my analogy, especially the "owning it" part.

I will say they can cozy up to Russia if they like -- but I doubt Putin has much available to lend them, plus if they think the IMF is hardnosed -- they ain't seen nuthin'.

 

[AE 87]

My only point was that I think you're seeing things in the two posts you referenced that weren't there. I didn't interpret what either said as disparaging to the German people. Hitler did want to have economic and political control over Europe (and most of the rest of the world too). The strength of the German economy right now puts them squarely in the driver's seat in making European economic policy decisions. Those are facts, not rhetoric. To say that comparing the economic control Germany has over the EU today approaches what Hitler strove for isn't denigrating Germany. I took it as ironic.

Maybe it's because the Cold War and the anti-communist sentiment grew so quickly on the heels of the end of WWII, but I don't think many younger americans (under 50ish) equates Germany of WWII era with the Germany of today.

Well, you're just wrong about one thing you say here. The influence of Germany within the EU is nothing close to the fascist totalitarian regime dreamed of by Hitler. It just boggles my mind how anyone could think that this is just a fact. Please explain how these situations are comparable. Have Chirac, Sarkozy and Hollande been puppets of Berlin? Is the economic influence of America also realizing a Hitler-like dream for other parts of the world? If you think the comparison is simply a fact, please explain it.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that if it was France in the driver seat, they'd still be talking about realizing Hitler's dream and a "Fourth Reich"? That, at least, would be a more ironic comparison if irony was the goal. No, Hitler is mentioned because it's Germany. @GTNavyNuke actually said, "the culture of Germany has historically been very effective at expansion" (@jwsavhGT "liked" that post, though she may unlike it now). Their practically explicit point was that German influence in the EU and especially within the current crisis with Greece is another example of German culture like that previously exemplified by Hitler. These observations weren't said in humor or good fun. They clearly reflect how they actually think.

What's sad is that anyone in 2015 can read their comments and not be offended. Still, like I said in another post, I grew up in the South during the 60's and 70's where I knew some otherwise decent people who had no idea how offensive their statements about African-American were. For them, what they said about African-Americans was just true. Now, when you talked to some of them and point out how ethnist and offensive their statements are, some would be self-reflective and realize that perhaps they did hold a bigoted perspective. Unfortunately, others would get angry with you as if taking offense at their language was your problem.

Let me take the example we discussed earlier to which you took offense, again iirc. I said people should just lighten-up and not take "fish eater" and "mackerel snapper" seriously. "Sticks and stones etc." However, if someone had said about the recent SCOTUS decisoin, "Well the Catholics on the Supreme Court actually colluded in the recent decision because they want 14th amendment rights granted to sexual orientation in order to further protect pedophile priests," that would have crossed the line into an obviously bigoted statement against Catholics. It impugns motives and evaluates actions based on a bigoted stereotype. Someone who talks like that should be called-out, imo.

 

[jwsavhGT]

@AE 87, thank you for explaining how I actually think because I have obviously made an absolute mess of getting my point across. After all the in-depth conversations we have had for all the years we've known each other I guess you know me better than I know myself.

In reality, @forensicbuzz was correct in observing that my statement re Germany/Hitler was an ironic observation but if you want to regard me or my comments as offensive that is your decision and no further explanation on my part will convince you otherwise. By the way, I don't have many friends from Germany but my mother's first cousin did marry someone from Germany.